Is Catholicism Christian? Are Catholics Saved?
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I do not believe in the RCC. How you jumped from THAT obvious truth to everything else you have posited here is... well, gosh, what can I say? Your imagination sure runs wild. I affirm the three Persons of the Godhead, yes. You seem to assume also, that if the RCC is not the true church, then there is no true church. That seems a terrible assumption to make. The RCC did not even come into existence until the fourth century.
So, you DISAGREE with the message that the scripture below conveys? Was the NT book called Hebrews INSPIRED (by the Holy Spirit) in your opinion? Have you read that verse IN CONTEXT yet?
As is true with the vast majority of ALL my posts on this forum, if the print is BLUE in color, it's most likely a hyperlink to more information!
Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
New International Version
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
New Living Translation
Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.
English Standard Version
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Berean Study Bible
If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains,
Berean Literal Bible
For if we sin willingly after we are to receive the knowledge of the truth, no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
New American Standard Bible
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
King James Bible
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
International Standard Version
For if we choose to go on sinning after we have learned the full truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
NET Bible
For if we deliberately keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins is left for us,
New Heart English Bible
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For if a man shall sin by his will after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there is no sacrifice to be offered afterward for sins,
GOD'S WORD® Translation
If we go on sinning after we have learned the truth, no sacrifice can take away our sins.
New American Standard 1977
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Jubilee Bible 2000
For if we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,
King James 2000 Bible
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,
American King James Version
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,
American Standard Version
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Douay-Rheims Bible
For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins,
Darby Bible Translation
For where we sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains any sacrifice for sins,
English Revised Version
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
Webster's Bible Translation
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Weymouth New Testament
For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the full knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains in reserve any other sacrifice for sins.
World English Bible
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins,
Young's Literal Translation
For we -- wilfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth -- no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice,
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The word “saint” comes from the Greek word hagios, which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious." It is almost always used in the plural, “saints.” "…Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem" (Acts 9:13). "Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda" (Acts 9:32). "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons …“ (Acts 26:10). There is only one instance of the singular use, and that is "Greet every saint in Christ Jesus…" (Philippians 4:21). In Scripture there are 67 uses of the plural “saints” compared to only one use of the singular word “saint.” Even in that one instance, a plurality of saints is in view: “…every saint…” (Philippians 4:21).
The idea of the word “saints” is a group of people set apart for the Lord and His kingdom. There are three references referring to godly character of saints: "that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints …" (Romans 16:2). "For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:12). "But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints" (Ephesians 5:3).
Therefore, scripturally speaking, the “saints” are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christian are saints—and at the same time are called to be saints. First Corinthians 1:2 states it clearly: “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…” The words “sanctified” and “holy” come from the same Greek root as the word that is commonly translated “saints.” Christians are saints by virtue of their connection with Jesus Christ. Christians are called to be saints, to increasingly allow their daily life to more closely match their position in Christ. This is the biblical description and calling of the saints.
How does the Roman Catholic understanding of “saints” compare with the biblical teaching? Not very well. In Roman Catholic theology, the saints are in heaven. In the Bible, the saints are on earth. In Roman Catholic teaching, a person does not become a saint unless he/she is “beatified” or “canonized” by the Pope or prominent bishop. In the Bible, everyone who has received Jesus Christ by faith is a saint. In Roman Catholic practice, the saints are revered, prayed to, and in some instances, worshipped. In the Bible, saints are called to revere, worship, and pray to God alone. https://www.gotquestions.org/saints-Christian.html
The idea of the word “saints” is a group of people set apart for the Lord and His kingdom. There are three references referring to godly character of saints: "that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints …" (Romans 16:2). "For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:12). "But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints" (Ephesians 5:3).
Therefore, scripturally speaking, the “saints” are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christian are saints—and at the same time are called to be saints. First Corinthians 1:2 states it clearly: “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…” The words “sanctified” and “holy” come from the same Greek root as the word that is commonly translated “saints.” Christians are saints by virtue of their connection with Jesus Christ. Christians are called to be saints, to increasingly allow their daily life to more closely match their position in Christ. This is the biblical description and calling of the saints.
How does the Roman Catholic understanding of “saints” compare with the biblical teaching? Not very well. In Roman Catholic theology, the saints are in heaven. In the Bible, the saints are on earth. In Roman Catholic teaching, a person does not become a saint unless he/she is “beatified” or “canonized” by the Pope or prominent bishop. In the Bible, everyone who has received Jesus Christ by faith is a saint. In Roman Catholic practice, the saints are revered, prayed to, and in some instances, worshipped. In the Bible, saints are called to revere, worship, and pray to God alone. https://www.gotquestions.org/saints-Christian.html
Thanks for your respon
[h=1]Revelation 5:8King James Version (KJV)[/h]8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
I think this verse can mean a Lot, not mean that the physical death saint able to hear billion people pray to them.
To me It is a symbolic that in the eyes of God prayer of the saint is like an parfumed that please before God. In this verse No instruction to pray to saint
[h=1]Revelation 5:8King James Version (KJV)[/h]8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
I think this verse can mean a Lot, not mean that the physical death saint able to hear billion people pray to them.
To me It is a symbolic that in the eyes of God prayer of the saint is like an parfumed that please before God. In this verse No instruction to pray to saint
Hi Roger,
I never mentioned Peter as it relates to MT 16:18, actually let's forget Peter for a moment and focus on the part where Jesus says He will build His Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail over it. So who is that Church and how do you prove that Jesus protected it if not by showing an unbroken chain of beliefs? Truth today can't be an untruth yesterday. If the Word of God validates truth on its own then why are there so many Christian denominations with so many different versions of the truth? Which "truth" is actually true?
And while we're on the subject of the Word of God do you read from a 66 bible or the 73 book Bible? If you read a 66 book bible how do you reconcile the fact that you are not reading the Bible the Christian Church used for 1000 years? Your beliefs are not based on reading the entirety of the Bible and with all due respect that is why your beliefs are lacking.
As it relates to your "Roman Catholic gospel" I have a few comments:
- Your portrayal of Baptism is basically accurate (i'm not going to get too deep)
- Confirmation is actually a confirming of the faith your parents stated in your place when you were an infant (typically you would have already received the Eucharist and gone to confession prior to Confirmation, but not always)
- Sacraments do infuse a person with grace...the grace to persevere to the end (MT 24:13). The sacraments were instituted by Jesus Himself. You will disagree with the Church's interpretation and all evidence of belief by the single universal Church and yet provide no evidence yourself.
- Purgatory can be formally validated as a belief of the single universal Church as early as 358 A.D. and since you are not reading the true Bible Purgatory means nothing to you. It's one of the tragic consequences of the Reformation.
- I have great hope and peace as should all faithful Catholics, but I do understand that I must persevere until the end as my Lord, God, and Savior pointed out (MT 24:13)
I trust in the Catholic Church because I trust in Jesus...not vice versa or either/or. I can prove that the Church Jesus speaks of in MT 16:18 is today's Catholic Church and I've been doing that for many of my posts. The frustrating thing for me is that most non-Catholics have no desire to prove Jesus kept His promise. Their interpretation, although well intentioned, takes precedence over being able to validate the promises of our Lord and that makes me very sad.
You still have never answered my question, "when did the Christian Church believe as you believe"? Can you give me even 1 piece of evidence that the Christian Church in 200, 500, 800, 1000 A.D. believed as you believe (or disbelieve in many cases)?
I know our discussions are getting deep and intense, but I just wanted you to know how much I appreciate the open dialogue we are having.
-Ernie-
I never mentioned Peter as it relates to MT 16:18, actually let's forget Peter for a moment and focus on the part where Jesus says He will build His Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail over it. So who is that Church and how do you prove that Jesus protected it if not by showing an unbroken chain of beliefs? Truth today can't be an untruth yesterday. If the Word of God validates truth on its own then why are there so many Christian denominations with so many different versions of the truth? Which "truth" is actually true?
And while we're on the subject of the Word of God do you read from a 66 bible or the 73 book Bible? If you read a 66 book bible how do you reconcile the fact that you are not reading the Bible the Christian Church used for 1000 years? Your beliefs are not based on reading the entirety of the Bible and with all due respect that is why your beliefs are lacking.
As it relates to your "Roman Catholic gospel" I have a few comments:
- Your portrayal of Baptism is basically accurate (i'm not going to get too deep)
- Confirmation is actually a confirming of the faith your parents stated in your place when you were an infant (typically you would have already received the Eucharist and gone to confession prior to Confirmation, but not always)
- Sacraments do infuse a person with grace...the grace to persevere to the end (MT 24:13). The sacraments were instituted by Jesus Himself. You will disagree with the Church's interpretation and all evidence of belief by the single universal Church and yet provide no evidence yourself.
- Purgatory can be formally validated as a belief of the single universal Church as early as 358 A.D. and since you are not reading the true Bible Purgatory means nothing to you. It's one of the tragic consequences of the Reformation.
- I have great hope and peace as should all faithful Catholics, but I do understand that I must persevere until the end as my Lord, God, and Savior pointed out (MT 24:13)
I trust in the Catholic Church because I trust in Jesus...not vice versa or either/or. I can prove that the Church Jesus speaks of in MT 16:18 is today's Catholic Church and I've been doing that for many of my posts. The frustrating thing for me is that most non-Catholics have no desire to prove Jesus kept His promise. Their interpretation, although well intentioned, takes precedence over being able to validate the promises of our Lord and that makes me very sad.
You still have never answered my question, "when did the Christian Church believe as you believe"? Can you give me even 1 piece of evidence that the Christian Church in 200, 500, 800, 1000 A.D. believed as you believe (or disbelieve in many cases)?
I know our discussions are getting deep and intense, but I just wanted you to know how much I appreciate the open dialogue we are having.
-Ernie-
Here is a "double hit" on a search of the bible! The first and the last matches are both very significant, at this time! I guess all the demons have become saints, based on the scripture that says they BELIEVE!
Bible Search: demons believe
Bible Search: demons believe
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Do you understand that what was at issue here in the book of Hebrews was Jewish believers professing Christ and then waivering and going back to the old sacrifices of temple worship? The writer is posing the question to reveal what they were believing. Were they trusting the grace of God or the old sacrifices of the temple?
Roman catholics today are a gentile version of the apostate Jewish religion of laws and works redemption. Well described in scripture as people who gave lip service but their hearts were far from God.
Scripture never allows the mixing of works and grace to be saved.
Mt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Roman catholics today are a gentile version of the apostate Jewish religion of laws and works redemption. Well described in scripture as people who gave lip service but their hearts were far from God.
Scripture never allows the mixing of works and grace to be saved.
Mt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Jesus was addressing Peter at the time.
The true church started with the apostles and disciples in Jerusalem. The early church was mostly Jewish at it's inception. The gospel is to the Jew first then the Gentile. Many of the early Christians were persecuted by both the Jews and the Romans. So big elaborate well documented churches were not to be found.
You simply have been indoctrinated in gross error regarding the church by your church.
Salvation is only about Jesus and not the church. The church cannot save only Jesus through His blood shed on Calvary can save the lost soul.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The true church started with the apostles and disciples in Jerusalem. The early church was mostly Jewish at it's inception. The gospel is to the Jew first then the Gentile. Many of the early Christians were persecuted by both the Jews and the Romans. So big elaborate well documented churches were not to be found.
You simply have been indoctrinated in gross error regarding the church by your church.
Salvation is only about Jesus and not the church. The church cannot save only Jesus through His blood shed on Calvary can save the lost soul.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I am not that the Hebrews were not "falling into their old ways" . . . but Hebrews 10:26 has MULTIPLE APPLICATIONS, and WAS NOT ISOLATED to ONLY idol worship, nor any OTHER "SINGLE OFFENSE!"
1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
…9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10northieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
IF IT WAS TRUE THAT, FOR BELIEVERS, SINS NO LONGER COUNTED ... why did JESUS tell people to SIN NO MORE? What difference would CONTINUED SINNING MAKE?
Bible Search: sin no more
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What do you mean, it's not a historical event? Have you ever heard of an encyclopedia?
[h=3]Saint Peter the Apostle | History, Facts, & Feast Day | Britannica.com[/h]https://www.britannica.com/biography/Saint-Peter-the-Apostle
Oct 24, 2017 - St. Peter the Apostle, original name Simeon or Simon, (died 64 ce, Rome [Italy]), discipleof Jesus Christ, recognized in the early Christian church as the leader of the 12 disciples and by the Roman Catholic Church as the first of its unbroken succession of popes. Peter, a Jewish fisherman, was called to be ...
Oh, yeah? And WHICH VERSION(S) of "the bible" are you referring to? For example, here are SEVERAL BIBLE VERSIONS of the exact SAME VERSE, immediately below. Which ONE(S) are correct, and WHICH ONE(S) have been CORRUPTED, and HOW DO YOU KNOW which is which?
1 John 5:7 For there are three that testify:
New International Version
For there are three that testify:
New Living Translation
So we have these three witnesses--
English Standard Version
For there are three that testify:
Berean Study Bible
For there are three that testify:
Berean Literal Bible
For there are three bearing testimony:
New American Standard Bible
For there are three that testify:
King James Bible
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For there are three that testify:
International Standard Version
For there are three witnesses —
NET Bible
For there are three that testify,
New Heart English Bible
For there are three who testify:
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And The Spirit testifies because The Spirit is the truth.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
There are three witnesses:
New American Standard 1977
And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
Jubilee Bible 2000
For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
King James 2000 Bible
For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.
American King James Version
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
American Standard Version
And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
Darby Bible Translation
For they that bear witness are three:
English Revised Version
And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
Webster's Bible Translation
For there are three that bear testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.
Weymouth New Testament
For there are three that give testimony-- the Spirit, the water, and the blood;
World English Bible
For there are three who testify:
Young's Literal Translation
because three are who are testifying in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one;
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You are abusing scripture if you endeavor to teach sinless perfection.
The righteousness of Christ is imputed the moment the sinner comes to Him and receives salvation.
2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The righteousness of Christ is imputed the moment the sinner comes to Him and receives salvation.
2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Oh, REALLY? What was JESUS saying in THIS SCRIPTURE, about SINNING NO MORE?
John 5:14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."
New International Version
Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."
New Living Translation
But afterward Jesus found him in the Temple and told him, "Now you are well; so stop sinning, or something even worse may happen to you."
English Standard Version
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.”
Berean Study Bible
Afterward, Jesus found the man in the temple and said to him, "See, you have been restored. Stop sinning, or something worse may happen to you."
Berean Literal Bible
After these things Jesus finds him in the temple and said to him, "Behold, you have become well. Sin no more, that something worse should not happen to you."
New American Standard Bible
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you."
King James Bible
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
After this, Jesus found him in the temple complex and said to him, "See, you are well. Do not sin anymore, so that something worse doesn't happen to you."
International Standard Version
Later on, Jesus found him in the Temple and told him, "Look! You have become well. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you."
NET Bible
After this Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "Look, you have become well. Don't sin any more, lest anything worse happen to you."
New Heart English Bible
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you are made well. Sin no more, so that nothing worse happens to you."
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
After a time Yeshua found him in The Temple and said to him: “Behold, you are well again; do not sin, lest something worse than before should happen to you.”
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Later, Jesus met the man in the temple courtyard and told him, "You're well now. Stop sinning so that something worse doesn't happen to you."
New American Standard 1977
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse may befall you.”
Jubilee Bible 2000
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole; sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
King James 2000 Bible
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, you are made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto you.
American King James Version
Afterward Jesus finds him in the temple, and said to him, Behold, you are made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come to you.
American Standard Version
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing befall thee.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Afterwards, Jesus findeth him in the temple, and saith to him: Behold thou art made whole: sin no more, lest some worse thing happen to thee.
Darby Bible Translation
After these things Jesus finds him in the temple, and said to him, Behold, thou art become well: sin no more, that something worse do not happen to thee.
English Revised Version
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing befall thee.
Webster's Bible Translation
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said to him, Behold, thou art cured: sin no more, lest a worse thing come to thee.
Weymouth New Testament
Afterwards Jesus found him in the Temple and said to him, "You are now restored to health. Do not sin any more, or a worse thing may befall you."
World English Bible
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "Behold, you are made well. Sin no more, so that nothing worse happens to you."
Young's Literal Translation
After these things, Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said to him, 'Lo, thou hast become whole; sin no more, lest something worse may happen to thee.'
Wow! Talk about "EYES WIDE SHUT!" You don't see a problem with CORRUPTED SCRIPTURES? I'll bet you don't even see a problem with RECENT MODIFICATIONS of the KJV, to "sanitize" it from condemning homosexuality either ... RIGHT?
https://www.jesus-is-lord.com/thebible.htm
"ALERT!!! [SIZE=+1]There are publishers that have been CHANGING/ALTERING THE AUTHORIZED KING JAMES BIBLE (find out more information below)! Print out and bind your own free download of the Authorized Version (Authorized King James Version) of the Bible (The Pure Cambridge Edition) while you can. "
[/SIZE]1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some ...[TABLE]
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[TD="class: s, bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]... believers will desert the Christian faith. They will follow spirits that
deceive, and they will believe the teachings of demons. ...
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