Is Catholicism Christian? Are Catholics Saved?

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,247
25,716
113

[TABLE="width: 590"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Pre-Roman Catholic False teachings [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]200 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Immersion of infants who are dying, but considered sinless. (Tertullian V.12)[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]250 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]North Africa region is first to practice infant baptism and reduced the age of baptism from minors to all newborns. This is opposed by other regions.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]257 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Baptism by sprinkling for adults instead of immersion first used as an exception for those on sick beds, but it caused great dispute.[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]300 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Prayers for the dead[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]320 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Special dress code of the clergy in worship[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]325 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]At the general council of Nice, 325, it was proposed indeed, probably by the Western bishop Hosius, to forbid entirely the marriage of priests; but the motion met with strong opposition, and was rejected.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]325 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]The date for Easter was set.[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]379 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Praying to Mary & Saints. (prayers of Ephraim Syrus)[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]385 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]In the West, the first prohibition of clerical marriage, which laid claim to universal ecclesiastical authority, proceeded in 385 from the Roman church in the form of a decretal letter of the bishop Siricius to Himerius, bishop of Tarragona in Spain.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]389 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Mariolatry begins with Gregory Nazianzen, who mentions in a eulogy, how Justina had besought the virgin Mary to protect her virginity.[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]400 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Impossibility of apostasy or once saved always saved, (Augustine XII.9)[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]416 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Infant baptism by immersion commanded of all infants (Council Of Mela, Austin was the principal director)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]430 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Exhalation of Virgin Mary: "Mother of God" first applied by the Council of Ephesus[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]502 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Special dress code of the Clergy all the time.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]500 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]The "Habit" of Nuns (Black gowns with white tunics)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]519 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Lent[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]526 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Extreme Unction[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]593 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]The Doctrine of Purgatory popularized from the Apocrypha by Gregory the Great[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]600 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]First use of Latin in worship (Gregory I)[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Beginning of the Orthodox/Roman Catholic church as we know it today in its present organization.[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]607 AD [/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"] First Pope: Boniface III is the first person to take the title of "universal Bishop" by decree of Emperor Phocas.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]608 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Pope Boniface IV. turns the Pantheon in Rome into a temple of Mary ad martyres: the pagan Olympus into a Christian heaven of gods.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]670 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Instrumental music: first organ by Pope Vitalian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]709 AD [/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Kissing of Pope Constantine's feet[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]753 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Baptism by sprinkling for those on sick beds officially accepted.[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]787 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Worship of icons and statue approved (2nd council of Nicea)[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]787 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Rome (Latin) and Constantinople (Greek) part ways and begin the drift towards complete split, resulting in two denominations emerging in 1054 AD.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]965 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Baptism of bells instituted by Pope John XIII[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]850 AD [/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Burning of Holy Candles [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]995 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]998 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Good Friday: fish only and the eating-red meat forbidden [/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1009 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Holy water [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1022 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Penance [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1054 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Roman Catholic church breaks away from the Orthodox church[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1054 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Roman Catholics officially embrace instrumental music, Orthodox reject instrumental music down to the present time.[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1079 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Celibacy enforced for priests, bishops, presbyters (Pope Gregory VII)[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1090 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Rosary beads: invented by Peter the Hermit[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1095 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Instrumental music [/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1190 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Sale of Indulgences or "tickets to sin" (punishment of sin removed)[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1215 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Transubstantiation by Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1215 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Auricular Confession of sins to priests instituted by Pope Innocent III, (Lateran Council)[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1215 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Mass a Sacrifice of Christ [/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1217 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Adoration and Elevation of Host: ie. communion bread (Pope Honrius III)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1230 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Ringing bells at Mass [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1251 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]The Scapular, the brown cloak worn by monks invented by Simon Stock[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1268 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Priestly power of absolution [/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1311 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Baptism by sprinkling accepted as the universal standard instead of immersion for all, not just the sick. (Council of Ravenna)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1414 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Laity no longer offered Lord's cup at communion (Council of Constance)[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1439 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Purgatory a dogma by the Council of Florence (see 593 AD)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1439 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Doctrine of Seven Sacraments affirmed[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1480 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]The Inquisition (of Spain) [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1495 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Papal control of marriage rights [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1534 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Order of Jesuits founded by Loyola[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1545 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Man-made tradition of church made equal to Bible (Council of Trent)[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1545 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Apocryphal books added to Bible (Council of Trent)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1546 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Justification by human works of merit [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1546 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Mass universally said in Latin (see 600 AD)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1547 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Confirmation [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1560 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Personal opinions of Pope Pius IV imposed as the official creed[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1864 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Syllabus Errorum [Syllabus of Errors] proclaimed that "Catholic countries" could not tolerate other religions, (no freedom of religion), conscience, separation of church and State condemned, asserted the Pope's temporal authority over all civil rulers (Ratified by Pope Pius IX and Vatican Council) condemned[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1870 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Infallibility of Pope (Vatican council)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1908 AD [/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]All Catholics should be christened into the church [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1930 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Public Schools condemned by Pope Pius XII (see 1864 AD)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1950 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Sinners prayer, invented by Billy Sunday and made popular by Billy Graham. (Some Catholics now use this)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1950 AD [/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Assumption of the body of the Virgin Mary into heaven shortly after her death. (Pope Pius XII)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1954 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Immaculate conception of Mary proclaimed by Pope Pius XII[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1995 AD [/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]The use of girls in the traditional alter boy duties [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1996 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Catholics can believe in Evolution (Pope John Paul II)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
http://www.bible.ca/cath-new-doctrines.htm
 
Dec 26, 2017
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NOT Jewish Scriptures. Jewish apocryphal books which were never regarded as Scripture until the translators of the LXX decided to include them in this corrupt Greek translation. But the Catholic scholar Jerome recognized this error, and planned to exclude them from the Latin Vulgate until he was forced to include them.
What do you mean forced? From everything I have read about him this guy was a giant in his time and would never have sacrificed his morals. Yes, he didn't agree with the Church and its views on there being 46 books in the OT that comprised divine scripture, but he submitted to the authority of the Church. Submitting is very different than being forced.

He could have chosen to not do the translation. And who knows what would have happened? Maybe nothing, maybe excommunication, who knows? The key here is that he didn't let his personal differences get in the way of the authority he knew Jesus gave His Church. Something that is lost on many today who pride themselves on their ability to personally interpret the truth over that of His Church.

-Ernie-
 
Dec 26, 2017
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shepherd of Hermas and the letters of Barnabas are two. both were books that no one had a problem with in the early days. why do we need councils to decide what books we are to read, isnt that what the spirit of truth is for?
i think there are more than 40 books mentioned by name in the bible, plus you have all the times scripture is quoted from books we dont have. how do you lose a holy scripture? oops we lost that scripture?? i dont believe it.
Hi Jaybird,

I agree that we don't need councils. Rather, we need the Church Jesus said He would build and protect to do its job of declaring and promoting truth. The way they did that is through councils...just as Jesus said. He gave Peter the keys personally (MT 16:18) but also gave authority to all of the apostles (MT 18:18) so it makes sense that all Church leaders come together to make decisions on faith and morals just as Jesus wanted.

The fact that you question the number of books in the Bible (at least that is how I'm interpreting what you're saying and if that's not the case I apologize) is the reason that Jesus built His Church and said He would protect it. People, even those with good intentions, will have different views, interpretations, and beliefs based on their own personal experiences, preconceived notions, and biases. Jesus knew this and needed to make sure the truth would always reign supreme and He did this by protecting His Church from teaching error.

Decisions made without His Church is like a crap-shoot...sometimes you may get it right and other times you'll be wrong...unpredictable and chaotic. The opposite of what Jesus prayed for...unity (John 17:22).

-Ernie-
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,247
25,716
113
Why doesn't it bother you that your beliefs cause a gap or broken chain of beliefs in Jesus' Church? And given that broken chain or gap between the early Church and your beliefs how do you validate that Jesus kept His promise to build and protect His Church?
My beliefs do NOT cause a gap or broken chain of beliefs in Jesus' Church. I am sorry to hear that you believe Jesus failed to keep His promise to build and protect His Church. Sorry, but not surprised.
 
Dec 26, 2017
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Most folks quote Mat 28 as the great commission. There is considerable doubt as to the manuscript authority of the long ending of Mark. Maybe old Gerome doctored the text to all the verses you cite.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
It sounds like you're questioning the authority of the Bible. What gives you or anyone that right? If I question one thing why can't I question whatever I want? For the love of all it's the Word of God we're talking about! This is that "me" quality of belief system rearing its ugly head again. If it doesn't fit someone's personal beliefs then change it (Luther), deflect to another verse (many non-Catholics I've dialogued with), or change the subject and berate.

I'll tell you Roger, that is a really slippery slope you're introducing...

-Ernie-
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
16,724
10,529
113
77
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org


Hello Deade,

It is important to understand that according to scripture life and death are both states of on-going conscious existence. Therefore, death is not a state of non-existence. For example, regarding those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark, it is said that the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever. And they will have no rest day or night. Needless to say, in order for one's smoke to ascend up forever and every, that person would have to exist while being in torment in the flame. The other words in the context "no rest day or night" would also support on-going conscious torment. For one would have to exist in order to be able to experience said torment day and night.

In addition, we also have the event of the rich man and Lazarus which reveals two men of whom scripture says both died and were buried, yet their spirits were conscious and aware in Sheol/Hades, Lazarus being in a place of comfort/paradise and the rich man being in that place of torment, the two places being separated by a great chasm. That rich man will remain there until after the millennial period and will be resurrected out of Sheol/Hades to stand before God at the great white throne judgment. Anyone's name not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire where they will continue to exist in their resurrected bodies in torment in flame. This is the scriptural truth of the matter.

Being separated from God and punished in the lake of fire is what the state of death is.
Hello Awatuthee,

Be aware that Sheol and Hades simply refers to the grave. Our doctrine of a dwelling place of the dead is inserted into Strong's Concordance as a reference. The reference in Revelation where they are tormented day and night forever, their smoke ascending forever could refer to something captured on film, therefore forever preserved. The reference in Mark 9:44: "Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" I believe is another example of that. It just does not make sense of a maggot that never dies.

All said, as I stated before all scripture has to fit together in what we teach or none of it is valid. Some things were presented in parables with figurative speech. Some things maybe we don't quite understand yet. God will not reveal some things until He is ready for us to know.

Yours, Deade
 
Dec 26, 2017
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Catholics do claim Jesus as Lord and Savior,and believe in His death,burial,and resurrection.

But the Catholics do a lot of things that are not part of the Bible,but sin can be forgiven,but they appear to be grave errors.

God said He does not give His glory to another,and to not make a statue of anything,or any person,or any creature,and reverence it,and Jesus said not to exalt Mary by saying all who does the will of God the same is His mother,brethren,and sister,and the person that hears the word of God,and does it,is as blessed as Mary,and born of women there has not been a greater than John the Baptist,so Jesus considered John greater than Mary,and they call her the Queen of heaven,and mother of God.

Is that a grave error if they exalt Mary,and bow down to a statue of her,and reverence her,or will God overlook it.

A man approached Jesus according to His humanity,and said good Master,and Jesus said why call Me good,for there is only one good and that is God,and said do not call any person on earth father in a spiritual sense,but only your heavenly father,and Christ is the head of the Church,but they call the Pope holy father,and he is the head of the Church.

Is that a grave error if they exalt the pope,and look at him in that viewpoint,or will God overlook it.

Jesus said the Pharisees by their traditions,make the word of God of none effect,and the Catholic Church does many things that are not in the Bible to do those things,and use physical objects like there is some benefit there,and love is the fulfilling of law.

Is this a grave error,or will God overlook it.

And other things they do that are not in the Bible,and Jesus said do not fight for the kingdom of God by physical force,like the Catholics did,but that is in the past,but still shows how they are wrong.

I view the Roman Catholic Church like this.When they embraced Christianity they did not get rid of their religious ways,but held unto them,and it became their foundation for the interpretation of scriptures.

The people love God,and think nothing is amiss,but will God overlook it the errors of it that they believe.

If they include Mary,and the Pope,as part of a benefit in the saints lives,and they make them out to be special,when God said all benefits come from Christ,and God does not give His glory to another,will God overlook it.
Hey Matt,

Very well thought out response. There's a lot here for me to try and respond to and I'll do my best to not be too long-winded.

Catholics call Mary Mother of God because that's what she is if you believe that Jesus is God. You can't treat Godly ways with man's ways by thinking how could God have a mom. When this belief was first formally proclaimed it was in response to heretics who were denying the divinity of Jesus. If you denied that Mary was the Mother of God in say 800 A.D. you would have been labeled a heretic and no longer a Christian. Whether that means anything to you is up to you.

The pope is not a father in the sense of The Father as in God, more in the sense of how Paul called himself "father" in Philemon 1:10 and the way he calls Timothy his son in 1 Tim 1:2, 1:18; 2 Tim 1:2, 2 Tim 2:1. No Catholic equates the pope with God. Jesus is the ultimate head of His Church. The pope simply represents Jesus as the head (but doesn't replace Him). Read Isaiah 22:22...just because Eliakim receives the "key to the house of David" it doesn't mean he is now the king. The king's power and authority are not in any way diminished that Eliakim can now let people in and out. Same thing with Jesus giving the key to Peter.

Rather than you stating "The Catholic Church does many things not in the Bible" it would be more accurate to state that "The Catholic Church does many things not in the Bible per my interpretation". Those things you likely believe are not in the Bible were believed by the early Christian Church. You just disagree with their version of the truth. Whose version of the truth is actually the truth is the real question.

I'm not sure what you're getting at as it relates to using force. Yes, Jesus said to "turn the other cheek" but he also overturned tables to make His point about buying and selling in His Father's house. It sounds to me that "righteous anger" and the use of "force" in some cases are allowed. For instance, if I saw someone stomping on the Eucharist I would likely use physical force to make them stop. We can agree to disagree.

Your view of the Catholic Church "embracing Christianity" is a bit confusing. The early Christian Church of the first 800 years was a single universal church. There was no other group claiming to be that Church Jesus spoke of in MT 16:18. Just because the early Christian Church grew into what we today call the Catholic Church only means that there is evidence that Jesus kept His promise to protect truth and His Church.

Don't allow your views of the Catholic Church to cloud your understanding of Jesus' Church over time. Place yourself in a certain time period without any thoughts of the Catholic Church and ask yourself, "would my beliefs have been consistent with being a Christian"? And if not then ask yourself, "if I wouldn't have been considered a Christian then what does that say about me now"?

-Ernie-
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
The doctrine of Purgatory is based on the Jewish doctrine of Gehenna!

S.C.J. FAQ: Section 12.8. Jewish Thought: What do Jews say happens when a person dies? Do Jews believe in reincarnation? In hell or heaven? Purgatory?

"However, for Jews, gehenna—while certainly a terribly unpleasant place—is not hell. The majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not tortured in hell forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 12 months. It is a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Gan Eden [Heaven], and where all imperfections are purged. [In this sense, it is somewhat similar to the Roman Catholic purgatory, however the time period has a definate maximum]. Gehennom (lit: the valley of Hinnom, in Jerusalem; i.e. hell) is the sinner's experience in the afterlife. In other words, it's the same "place" as gan eiden (lit: the garden of Eden; i.e. heaven) — it's the perspective of the individual that makes it one or the other."

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...4...0j0i131k1j0i13k1j0i8i7i30k1.0.pBE5LHm1nlw
to me It is not biblical, It just interpretation and I am not agree that interpretation.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,247
25,716
113
Rather than you stating "The Catholic Church does many things not in the Bible" it would be more accurate to state that "The Catholic Church does many things not in the Bible per my interpretation". Those things you likely believe are not in the Bible were believed by the early Christian Church. You just disagree with their version of the truth. Whose version of the truth is actually the truth is the real question.
I have already shown how and when beliefs and practices were added to the RCC as time went on. RCC apologists are well practiced liars.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
Yes, they did, though they did not call it purgatory. Jews do believe in a purification which takes place after death. When a Jewish person's loved one dies, it is customary to pray on his behalf for eleven months using a prayer known as the mourner's Qaddish (derived from the Hebrew word meaning "holy"). This prayer is used to ask God to hasten the purification of the loved one's soul. The Qaddish is prayed for only eleven months because it is thought to be an insult to imply that the loved one's sins were so severe that he would require a full year of purification.

Does that sound legitimate to you? :rolleyes: Should we trust what the Bible teaches or should we trust in those who have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge? For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own righteousness, they did not not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. (Romans 10:1-4). *Sounds similar to Roman Catholicism.

Do you believe in purgatory? You have already made it clear that you don't believe in the Trinity.
i believe in a soul purification process after death. do you not believe there is a judgment after death?

Yet, you DO NOT believe that JESUS IS GOD. :(
cmon dan, why you gotta take these cheap shots? the trinity?? all this boils down to the trinity??
 
Dec 26, 2017
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I was a Roman Catholic who came to get saved IN SPITE of what Roman Catholicism taught about the plan of salvation and NOT BECAUSE of what they taught.

Roman Catholicism is correct about the Trinity, yet they teach a "different" gospel. Instead of saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by grace through faith (their version of faith) "infused" with works. I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he said this below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..

His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works listed above and is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (their version of faith) + works. Roman Catholics seem to think by not teaching that justification comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works, yet they still claim that we are saved by accomplishing this check list of works above. Faith is faith and works are works. Faith is not defined as works.

There are certain churches (like Roman Catholicism) that teach a false gospel, which will lead all of those to their doom, who strictly follow the teachings of those churches. But those who believe the true gospel of grace, and not just whatever their church teaches, are saved regardless of the group with which they are associated. Conversely, one's church may preach the true gospel of grace. If one believes the gospel, then one has eternal salvation (Romans 1:16). But if one does not believe it, then one is lost even though the official teaching of one's church is correct.

Amen!
Hi Mailmandan,

Catholics believe we are saved by grace, period. We do not deserve this grace and being saved requires faith in Jesus, which also comes as a result of the grace of God. We can do nothing ourselves to warrant or merit our salvation. Now when it comes to works we follow James in that faith without works is dead. Let me provide a few examples:

A person states that they believe that they should lose weight. However, they don't exercise and overeat. Belief without "works" will keep this person overweight and is inconsistent with their "beliefs"

A member of congress states that they believe in the constitution. However, they abuse their power and accept bribes. Belief with bad "works" is a violation of the constitution and is inconsistent with their "beliefs"

A person states that they believe we should all give to the poor. Then, that person passes a homeless person asking for money and they walk by without even looking up. Belief with actionable "works" in this case is inconsistent with their beliefs.

Hopefully you get where I'm coming from. Catholics believe talk is cheap. Anyone can say they believe in something and yet act inconsistent with that belief. The "works" in essence prove the faith a person says they have. Just because I say that I believe doesn't mean that I actually do. Jesus actually talks about this in the parable of one son saying he would obey and not doing it while the other says he won't obey but does. Who did the will of their father? The one who acted!

Hopefully that makes sense. What do you think?

-Ernie-
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Hi Mailmandan,

Catholics believe we are saved by grace, period.
Actually, you don't believe this.

Period. :D

You are given a chance to be saved. If...

Commit one "mortal sin," and to hell you go.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,247
25,716
113
Catholics believe we are saved by grace, period. We do not deserve this grace and being saved requires faith in Jesus, which also comes as a result of the grace of God. We can do nothing ourselves to warrant or merit our salvation. Now when it comes to works we follow James in that faith without works is dead.
Roman Catholicism taught (though apologists have denied it, being the liars they are) that outside the Roman Church, there is no salvation. That means you MUST believe what they teach as infallible, or according to them you are not saved. Conclusion: if you do not accept- as you are mandated to do by papal decree- the dogmas of the immaculate conception and life-long sinlessness of Mary (nowhere taught, implied, or alluded to in Scripture, and actually contrary to what Scripture really does teach), and the bodily assumption of Mary to heaven (again, nowhere taught, alluded to, or implied in Scripture) , then you at not part of their heretical church, and again, according to what they used to promote, you would not be saved. Of course now they have finally changed their tune and astoundingly enough say even atheists can be saved if they are good. And, the pope kissing the Satanic Koran is disturbing, to say the least :)
 
Dec 26, 2017
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My beliefs do NOT cause a gap or broken chain of beliefs in Jesus' Church. I am sorry to hear that you believe Jesus failed to keep His promise to build and protect His Church. Sorry, but not surprised.
Prove it. I can prove my beliefs are in line with the early Christian Church in an unbroken manner. You saying there is no gap doesn't prove it so. Why so evasive?

Simply give me 1 piece of evidence, just 1 that your disbelief in the Eucharist was believed by the early Christian Church in the first 800 years. I can provide you documents and quoted and referred to many along with my posts. All I'm asking is for you to provide 1 piece of evidence that the Church believed as you say. This goes for the other beliefs we have been debating. Just prove to me that what you are saying is true and would have had you labeled a Christian and not a heretic.

You believe that the Eucharist is not the Real Presence of Jesus. When did the Church believed that in 300, 600, 1100 A.D.? Truth is truth. If you have truth that truth must have shone for all to see (MT 5:14). Please share it with us.

-Ernie-
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,247
25,716
113
Prove it. I can prove my beliefs are in line with the early Christian Church in an unbroken manner. You saying there is no gap doesn't prove it so. Why so evasive?
Evasive? Another one of your lies. I gave a list of the changing beliefs of your beloved institution at the top of this very page. Perhaps you are far more blind than any ever suspected :)
 
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[TABLE="width: 590"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Pre-Roman Catholic False teachings [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]200 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Immersion of infants who are dying, but considered sinless. (Tertullian V.12)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]250 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]North Africa region is first to practice infant baptism and reduced the age of baptism from minors to all newborns. This is opposed by other regions.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]257 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Baptism by sprinkling for adults instead of immersion first used as an exception for those on sick beds, but it caused great dispute.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]300 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Prayers for the dead[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]320 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Special dress code of the clergy in worship[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]325 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]At the general council of Nice, 325, it was proposed indeed, probably by the Western bishop Hosius, to forbid entirely the marriage of priests; but the motion met with strong opposition, and was rejected.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]325 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]The date for Easter was set.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]379 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Praying to Mary & Saints. (prayers of Ephraim Syrus)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]385 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]In the West, the first prohibition of clerical marriage, which laid claim to universal ecclesiastical authority, proceeded in 385 from the Roman church in the form of a decretal letter of the bishop Siricius to Himerius, bishop of Tarragona in Spain.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]389 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Mariolatry begins with Gregory Nazianzen, who mentions in a eulogy, how Justina had besought the virgin Mary to protect her virginity.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]400 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Impossibility of apostasy or once saved always saved, (Augustine XII.9)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]416 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Infant baptism by immersion commanded of all infants (Council Of Mela, Austin was the principal director)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]430 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Exhalation of Virgin Mary: "Mother of God" first applied by the Council of Ephesus[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]502 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Special dress code of the Clergy all the time.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]500 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]The "Habit" of Nuns (Black gowns with white tunics)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]519 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Lent[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]526 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Extreme Unction[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]593 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]The Doctrine of Purgatory popularized from the Apocrypha by Gregory the Great[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]600 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]First use of Latin in worship (Gregory I)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Beginning of the Orthodox/Roman Catholic church as we know it today in its present organization.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]607 AD [/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"] First Pope: Boniface III is the first person to take the title of "universal Bishop" by decree of Emperor Phocas.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]608 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Pope Boniface IV. turns the Pantheon in Rome into a temple of Mary ad martyres: the pagan Olympus into a Christian heaven of gods.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]670 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Instrumental music: first organ by Pope Vitalian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]709 AD [/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Kissing of Pope Constantine's feet[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]753 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Baptism by sprinkling for those on sick beds officially accepted.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]787 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Worship of icons and statue approved (2nd council of Nicea)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]787 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Rome (Latin) and Constantinople (Greek) part ways and begin the drift towards complete split, resulting in two denominations emerging in 1054 AD.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]965 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Baptism of bells instituted by Pope John XIII[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]850 AD [/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Burning of Holy Candles [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]995 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]998 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Good Friday: fish only and the eating-red meat forbidden [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1009 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Holy water [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1022 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Penance [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1054 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Roman Catholic church breaks away from the Orthodox church[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1054 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Roman Catholics officially embrace instrumental music, Orthodox reject instrumental music down to the present time.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1079 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Celibacy enforced for priests, bishops, presbyters (Pope Gregory VII)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1090 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Rosary beads: invented by Peter the Hermit[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1095 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Instrumental music [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1190 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Sale of Indulgences or "tickets to sin" (punishment of sin removed)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1215 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Transubstantiation by Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1215 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Auricular Confession of sins to priests instituted by Pope Innocent III, (Lateran Council)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1215 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Mass a Sacrifice of Christ [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1217 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Adoration and Elevation of Host: ie. communion bread (Pope Honrius III)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1230 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Ringing bells at Mass [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1251 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]The Scapular, the brown cloak worn by monks invented by Simon Stock[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1268 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Priestly power of absolution [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1311 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Baptism by sprinkling accepted as the universal standard instead of immersion for all, not just the sick. (Council of Ravenna)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1414 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Laity no longer offered Lord's cup at communion (Council of Constance)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1439 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Purgatory a dogma by the Council of Florence (see 593 AD)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1439 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Doctrine of Seven Sacraments affirmed[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1480 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]The Inquisition (of Spain) [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1495 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Papal control of marriage rights [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1534 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Order of Jesuits founded by Loyola[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1545 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Man-made tradition of church made equal to Bible (Council of Trent)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1545 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Apocryphal books added to Bible (Council of Trent)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1546 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Justification by human works of merit [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1546 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Mass universally said in Latin (see 600 AD)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1547 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Confirmation [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1560 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Personal opinions of Pope Pius IV imposed as the official creed[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1864 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Syllabus Errorum [Syllabus of Errors] proclaimed that "Catholic countries" could not tolerate other religions, (no freedom of religion), conscience, separation of church and State condemned, asserted the Pope's temporal authority over all civil rulers (Ratified by Pope Pius IX and Vatican Council) condemned[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1870 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Infallibility of Pope (Vatican council)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1908 AD [/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]All Catholics should be christened into the church [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1930 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Public Schools condemned by Pope Pius XII (see 1864 AD)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1950 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Sinners prayer, invented by Billy Sunday and made popular by Billy Graham. (Some Catholics now use this)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1950 AD [/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Assumption of the body of the Virgin Mary into heaven shortly after her death. (Pope Pius XII)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1954 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Immaculate conception of Mary proclaimed by Pope Pius XII[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1995 AD [/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]The use of girls in the traditional alter boy duties [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]1996 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Catholics can believe in Evolution (Pope John Paul II)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
http://www.bible.ca/cath-new-doctrines.htm
Come on, anyone can copy and paste. This is a forum for discussion. There are so many things wrong with this list it's embarrassing and would take me all day to respond...and I could so don't take it as me being evasive. One example is 607 A.D. as the 1st pope. That is so comically misleading. All one has to do is google church councils and read just a few to know that the pope had universal authority. Another is to insinuate that the Mass was as a sacrifice was first conceived in 1215 A.D. when it is easily researched that in the council of Ephesus in 431 A.D. it is stated that "we offer unbloody worship...partaking of the real flesh of the Word". This list is made with zero intellectual honesty with pure hatred as its key motivator.

I once thought like you and believed only with what was aligned with my own beliefs. When I was thinking of leaving the Church I did much research to prove what all Christian denominations claimed as being the truth was actually true. As soon as I honestly looked at both sides is when I started seeing the light. Read and research from sites other than those that hate the Catholic Church. Rather than copying and pasting do some research yourself, from both points of view. It helped me greatly to see things from both sides in order to make a proper decision.

-Ernie-
 
Dec 14, 2017
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Instead of saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by grace through faith (their version of faith) "infused" with works.

Let's take a CLOSER LOOK at faith ... WITHOUT works!


Bible Search: faith without works


The above hyperlink launches a search for those two keywords, across numerous bible versions. James tells us VERY CLEARLY that faith without works is DEAD (or USELESS)! How much good can DEAD or USELESS faith do for any person? James further states that he will show us his faith BY his works! Please take careful note, that James did NOT say that he would show us his faith WITHOUT his works!

What does James say about LACK of WORKS is THIS scripture?

James 2:16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it?
 
Last edited:

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,261
2,386
113
Catholics can't be Christians because their leader wears a funny hat.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,261
2,386
113
Which also makes me suspicious of John Calvin.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Come on, anyone can copy and paste. This is a forum for discussion. There are so many things wrong with this list it's embarrassing and would take me all day to respond...and I could so don't take it as me being evasive.
Oh, you're being evasive alright. Your excuses are a cop out.