Is Catholicism Christian? Are Catholics Saved?
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Prayer to st Joseph
Blessed Joseph, husband of Mary,
be with us this day.
You protected and cherished the Virgin;
loving the Child Jesus as your Son,
you rescued Him from the danger of death.
Defend the Church,
the household of God,
purchased by the Blood of Christ.
Guardian of the Holy Family,
be with us in our trials.
May your prayers obtain for us
the strength to flee from error
and wrestle with the powers of corruption
so that in life we may grow in holiness
and in death rejoice in the crown of victory.
Amen.
Look like catholic believe Joseph protect Mary, and Jesus. In this prayer, hide a new doctrine that human able to protect God.
Did God need human protection?
Blessed Joseph, husband of Mary,
be with us this day.
You protected and cherished the Virgin;
loving the Child Jesus as your Son,
you rescued Him from the danger of death.
Defend the Church,
the household of God,
purchased by the Blood of Christ.
Guardian of the Holy Family,
be with us in our trials.
May your prayers obtain for us
the strength to flee from error
and wrestle with the powers of corruption
so that in life we may grow in holiness
and in death rejoice in the crown of victory.
Amen.
Look like catholic believe Joseph protect Mary, and Jesus. In this prayer, hide a new doctrine that human able to protect God.
Did God need human protection?
Christ's faith as a living hope to appease the wrath of the Father was not without work as a three day labor of His love.
Hi Inquistor.
I would suggest study the meaning of what it means to walk by faith and not by sight.Its how we can hear God as the things of God and not men seen as the things of men. Why seek the approval of men and think of men above that which is written ? What did any prophet have that he did not felly recive form God. if they did not receive it they would have something to boast about before men. But never before God. Why venerate men in a form of worship.
Is the kingdom of God of this world and we do enter it by observation and not by faith?
I would think we do enter it by faith in that way when we do hear His voice and not harden our heart we can rest assured it is absolutely true.With no need to seek the approval of men seen.
Sola scriptura the reforming authority of God has seemed to slip to the side.
First of all the Bible alonein respect to the same one spirit of faith as it is written is that by which any man can believe God unseen it as the once source of Christian faith is written in the law and prophets .
It is not the final authority in matters of faith to a Catholic, in fact it is of no authority .They follow another gospel which is not reconcilable with all that is written in the law and the prophets and teach the things of God and those of men all flow from the same source, Rome.
So why quote the scriptures unless it is an authority as the things of God, without your church fathers, as the things of men. We are infallibly informed that kind of ideology offends our living God. I would think you would have to choose which master you will serve. ....Those that are of the things of all together righteous and Holy God not seen, or of sinful men as that seen? No man can serve two masters as authoritive teachers . In that way we are to call no man on earth teacher , master, Rabbi. Just as in the same way we are to call no man on earth Father.
They love to be greeted with respect in public places and to have men call them ‘rabbi!’ Don’t you ever be called ‘rabbi’—you have only one teacher, and all of you are brothers. And don’t call any human being ‘father’—for you have one Father and he is in Heaven. And you must not let people call you ‘leaders’—you have only one leader, Christ! Mathew 23
The fact a Catholic must as a law of their fathers make both of the requests without effect speaks volumes in its self. That would seem to blaspheme the holy name by which we are called heavenward .Calling Men HOLY FATHER, HOLY SEE among other words that take away honor (veneration as a form or worship) from our one Father in heaven is not walking by faith .
We walk by faith(the unseen) the promised work of theHoly Spirit as our comforter teacher and guide, who teaches us all things and brings to our memory the things he has taught us. As a Catholic you must accredit that to your fathers as that seen.learn what it means to walk by faith.let the holy Spirit guide you .He will catch you if you fall.
Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.Joh 6:43
Later on in that chapter to confirm we walk by faith not in respect to his flesh as that seen. He informs us, that seen ,the flesh profits for nothing . The Catholic disciples that were offended at the prospect of walking by faith walked away in unbelief. You could say they are identified as the murmurers.( No faith)
Peter knew it is the Spirit(not seen) that quickens ; the flesh profits nothing.
The idea infallible flesh is needed for those who do walk by sight.
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.Joh 6:66
In regard to James, he is reminding us in James in regard to Ephesian 2 of the work of faith (Christ's) by which he freely gives us the reward of His grace reminding us that faith that performed the work of God is not of ourselves. He is our Faithful creator.
The grace below is not without work, we are His workmanship, he is the Potter we walk by His understanding, not seen called faith.. The new faith coming from a new spirit that will never die and new heart freely given us is not of our selves .lest any man walk by sight.after false pride...the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, we are infallibly informed is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Again the faith below is not without the word of Christ.Its not of our works not not of His.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.Eph 2:8
God is not a man as us.
Hi Inquistor.
I would suggest study the meaning of what it means to walk by faith and not by sight.Its how we can hear God as the things of God and not men seen as the things of men. Why seek the approval of men and think of men above that which is written ? What did any prophet have that he did not felly recive form God. if they did not receive it they would have something to boast about before men. But never before God. Why venerate men in a form of worship.
Is the kingdom of God of this world and we do enter it by observation and not by faith?
I would think we do enter it by faith in that way when we do hear His voice and not harden our heart we can rest assured it is absolutely true.With no need to seek the approval of men seen.
Sola scriptura the reforming authority of God has seemed to slip to the side.
First of all the Bible alonein respect to the same one spirit of faith as it is written is that by which any man can believe God unseen it as the once source of Christian faith is written in the law and prophets .
It is not the final authority in matters of faith to a Catholic, in fact it is of no authority .They follow another gospel which is not reconcilable with all that is written in the law and the prophets and teach the things of God and those of men all flow from the same source, Rome.
So why quote the scriptures unless it is an authority as the things of God, without your church fathers, as the things of men. We are infallibly informed that kind of ideology offends our living God. I would think you would have to choose which master you will serve. ....Those that are of the things of all together righteous and Holy God not seen, or of sinful men as that seen? No man can serve two masters as authoritive teachers . In that way we are to call no man on earth teacher , master, Rabbi. Just as in the same way we are to call no man on earth Father.
They love to be greeted with respect in public places and to have men call them ‘rabbi!’ Don’t you ever be called ‘rabbi’—you have only one teacher, and all of you are brothers. And don’t call any human being ‘father’—for you have one Father and he is in Heaven. And you must not let people call you ‘leaders’—you have only one leader, Christ! Mathew 23
The fact a Catholic must as a law of their fathers make both of the requests without effect speaks volumes in its self. That would seem to blaspheme the holy name by which we are called heavenward .Calling Men HOLY FATHER, HOLY SEE among other words that take away honor (veneration as a form or worship) from our one Father in heaven is not walking by faith .
We walk by faith(the unseen) the promised work of theHoly Spirit as our comforter teacher and guide, who teaches us all things and brings to our memory the things he has taught us. As a Catholic you must accredit that to your fathers as that seen.learn what it means to walk by faith.let the holy Spirit guide you .He will catch you if you fall.
Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.Joh 6:43
Later on in that chapter to confirm we walk by faith not in respect to his flesh as that seen. He informs us, that seen ,the flesh profits for nothing . The Catholic disciples that were offended at the prospect of walking by faith walked away in unbelief. You could say they are identified as the murmurers.( No faith)
Peter knew it is the Spirit(not seen) that quickens ; the flesh profits nothing.
The idea infallible flesh is needed for those who do walk by sight.
When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.Joh 6:66
In regard to James, he is reminding us in James in regard to Ephesian 2 of the work of faith (Christ's) by which he freely gives us the reward of His grace reminding us that faith that performed the work of God is not of ourselves. He is our Faithful creator.
The grace below is not without work, we are His workmanship, he is the Potter we walk by His understanding, not seen called faith.. The new faith coming from a new spirit that will never die and new heart freely given us is not of our selves .lest any man walk by sight.after false pride...the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, we are infallibly informed is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Again the faith below is not without the word of Christ.Its not of our works not not of His.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.Eph 2:8
God is not a man as us.
As coming from a catholic background, being raised up as one, the catholic religion to put it simply, is about worshipping statues (or idol worship)
It took me a while to really see what the catholic church really is. Learning about the past, babylon worship, queen of heaven worship; it was then I saw what the catholic church worship system really is all about.
It took me a while to really see what the catholic church really is. Learning about the past, babylon worship, queen of heaven worship; it was then I saw what the catholic church worship system really is all about.
Yes, let's take a closer look.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is a dead faith and not a living faith. Again, if someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).
In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is a dead faith and not a living faith. Again, if someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).
In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*
Yes, let's take a closer look.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is a dead faith and not a living faith. Again, if someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).
In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is a dead faith and not a living faith. Again, if someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).
In a nutshell, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*
bro what is the difference in reality lol? why is the argument always works v faith? and the conclusion " man is saved by grace alone through faith" faith without works, is not faith and cannot save anyone its an empty useless fools hope. a passing thought. one who lives by the same faith you are for whatever reason going in a huge circle about here, will always do the works of faith lol its like the egg and the chicken argument when the modern grace gospel is the root. faith wothout works is dead look at that simply like a math equation and there is nothing to argue against. no reason to go in a circle.
faith without works is dead, useless cant save anyone. anyone who is acting in faith, will do the works prepared in advance that we, christians, should walk in. faith is what you do, coming from what you believe the two elements cant be divided or seperated into two different things. think of peter. he sees Jesus walking on the water, he is in the boat safe. peter calls to jesus and tells him if its you bid me to come and i will. ..Jesus says come it is I......peter then takes the active step following His belief in Jesus, and His words to Him. if peter had remained in the boat, he would not have walked by faith he would not have had the little faith he had.....
there is no possible way to seperate the inward belief of faith, and the work faith Leads to US actually doing. the bible does not read anywhere " because Jesus did what He did theres nothing rewuired of you" not one place, rather you find all these men who were apostles of Jesus, exhorting christians in the church to repent and come into obedience all through the gospel and epistles. when you stop your car, you press the brake and it stops, you can believe the brake will work, but try not actually doing your part and applying he brake and even though u had faith it would stop you, it wont. even though all the power you needed to stop in time was there, you were informed, instructed taught to drive and brake properly...but if you dont perform your role as the driver and actually do the "work" of applying the brake it is in complete and you will crash. not because the brake was faulty, not because u had no clue the brake would stop you, but because your role wasnt done.
thats How christianity is, its already there for us to lay hold of, but we have to follow where the Word of God Leads, and every road, everything Jesus did, all of it is meant to lead those who will believe in Jesus , to repentance of sins, and putting on the garments of righteousness. all of its there for us provided, free of charge all in Gods Word. but His word teaches us the things we have to do because of all He has done. there is no salvation that happens regardless of what we actually do because thats faith, believing so much in Jesus, that we begin living right where before we were sinners unable, now become new creations created to actually do those things and Live His way in peace and joy. salvations roads all lead to the same duty of the saved. serve God with all we have and are in this life and be a part of His eternal Kingdom. we fail and theres forgiveness, wee wain and there is grace to strengthen, but we are called forward to the high calling that was bought with His suffering, tears and blood.
faith saves because, without it, wed never do the right things. believe right, live right
I have already thoroughly explained this numerous times. Why the continuous opposition from you? We are saved by grace through faith apart from the merit of works (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9), yet authentic faith is not apart from the presence of works (James 2:14-26). Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. Agree or disagree?
That's because it's an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith in Christ. Says-claims to have faith but no resulting evidential works to follow demonstrates what about this claim of faith? EMPTY PROFESSION OF FAITH/DEAD FAITH. Agree or disagree?
Faith saves because of the OBJECT of our faith. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. *It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). Agree or disagree?
That's because it's an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith in Christ. Says-claims to have faith but no resulting evidential works to follow demonstrates what about this claim of faith? EMPTY PROFESSION OF FAITH/DEAD FAITH. Agree or disagree?
Faith saves because of the OBJECT of our faith. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. *It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). Agree or disagree?
Hi Angela,
Thank you for your kind words and based on the responses you received from others I want to set the record straight and explain at least a little bit of who I am and what my intentions were in joining this Christian Chat site.
First of all, I am happily married, my wife and I have been blessed with 5 children, and I have a regular day job. I’m not a priest or a nun. I’m not in the seminary, qualifying to be a deacon, or an apologist. However, God did grace me with an incredible faith journey that enabled me to gain quite a bit of knowledge. I’ll share my story now and apologize upfront for its length.
I was born and raised a Catholic, but never really knew or even cared to know about my faith. When for the first time my faith was questioned by a new neighbor I had no answers and was easily swayed. My new neighbor described himself simply as a Christian. He described his personal relationship with Jesus (something I had never heard of) and frequently quoted from the Bible (again new to me). He used verses in the Bible to both back up his beliefs as well as point out the many errors in the Catholic faith.
After several discussions with him he thoroughly convinced me that the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon, the pope was the anti-Christ and Catholics were cannibals who worshipped Mary among other things. I decided to leave the Catholic Church and find another church to attend. But, that was more difficult than I imagined.
It never occurred to me how many Christian churches there were. When I started looking around I noticed that there were 5 within walking distance from my house and about 100 within a 10 mile radius. There was Lutheran, Methodist, Assembly of God, Pentecostal, Baptist, Presbyterian, and a bunch of non-denominational churches. It was very frustrating for me as each had slightly different practices and set of beliefs. I wasn’t looking for a feel-good church, I was looking for the truth. Which one taught the truth?
So I began researching. And I had 3 things I knew going in: 1) Jesus was my Lord, God, and Savior, 2) The Bible was the Word of God, 3) The Catholic Church preached error. I started with the Bible because I had never read it besides hearing it at Mass. I read through the entire Old Testament and as I read the gospel of Matthew a particular verse stuck out for me and that was MT 16:18, but not for the reason you might think. At the time I could care less about Peter as I learned from my neighbor that it was Peter’s faith that was the rock, and so I focused on the part where Jesus said He would build and protect His Church. So that became my mission…to find that church, Jesus’ Church.
Since I wasn’t sure who taught the truth amongst the many different Christian denominations I decided to look at the early Christian community to see if that might tell me something. I was very surprised to learn that there wasn’t the vast number of denominations we have today. Rather, there was just one Christian church. This was a huge deal to me because since there was just one church and Jesus said He would build His Church then this one had to be it. Just seemed logical to me. Otherwise, Jesus failed to do what He said He’d do. God can’t fail so this must be His Church. So now all I had to do was find out what that Church believed because what they believed had to be the truth since Jesus said He would protect His Church. Again, otherwise He would have failed. Then once I knew the truth I could just compare that with the denominations of today and the one that aligned with Jesus’ Church would be the church for me. Easy as pie I thought, but this is where my research led me in areas that surprised me and where I didn’t want to go.
I started reading about the early Church and was shocked to find out that they believed in the Eucharist, Mary ever-virgin and Mother of God, praying to the dead, and other “Catholic” beliefs. I felt like a dagger went through me each time because my neighbor proved to me why that wasn’t true. Because of my anti-Catholic bias I searched and searched to find anyone within the Church who had different beliefs and couldn’t find anyone. I went from despair to anger knowing I had been deceived. It wasn’t the Catholic Church that got it wrong, but my neighbor who did. I was in Jesus’ Church but never knew it.
As my knowledge grew so did my confidence and I felt God wanting me to help other Catholics to not be so easily swayed as I was. I then started to talk to non-Catholics in person as well as online. I even watched debates between Catholic and non-Catholic apologists to pick up pointers. But, it all came down to the same thing. One side would state their belief and quote scripture, then the other side would say that is wrong and state their belief and back it up with their own Bible verses and then back again…sometimes even using the same verse but with different interpretations. I called it the “my interpretation is better than yours” game and it was horribly frustrating to me as generally it would end in an agreement to disagree if not a fist fight...haha..just kidding! I felt God calling me to do something different.
I felt the Lord calling me to defend the Catholic faith through the rationale He used to bring me back to the Catholic Church. To teach Catholics about how their faith is the only faith that can prove Jesus kept His promise. And this way they wouldn’t have to memorize all the different verses to defend the multiple attacks thrown a Catholic’s way. Basically, a foundation that can be built on if they so desired. At the minimum a way that would give them great confidence in their faith in the face of numerous attacks.
I joined this chat site to test out my method. I wanted to see how non-Catholics would react and if they would have answers. What I didn’t expect at all was indifference. I expected some sort of biblical interpretation as to why their faith would have made them a heretic in the early Christian Church, but instead it’s been basically a “who cares” type attitude. I’m shocked by this. I prove a gap in beliefs and the response is basically “no, there isn’t” or the Catholic Church is bad or a cut and paste from a Catholic hating website or no response at all. No direct response to my contention with not even any real reflection on their part.
Contrast the above with every attack on the Catholic faith where I have provided a scripture verse that backs up the Catholic belief. One may disagree with the Church’s interpretation, but at least I provide my rationale.
Thanks again and sorry for the length. As people started bashing me I felt I owed them the full story no matter how long it might be. And I apologize to everyone who feels that I'm an apologist. I never would have dreamed to call myself that as I always thought of people like Scott Hahn or Tim Staples to be apologists and I'm nowhere near that.
I start my day job on Tuesday so I’ll have much less time to converse, but I’ll do the best I can.
-Ernie-
Thank you for your kind words and based on the responses you received from others I want to set the record straight and explain at least a little bit of who I am and what my intentions were in joining this Christian Chat site.
First of all, I am happily married, my wife and I have been blessed with 5 children, and I have a regular day job. I’m not a priest or a nun. I’m not in the seminary, qualifying to be a deacon, or an apologist. However, God did grace me with an incredible faith journey that enabled me to gain quite a bit of knowledge. I’ll share my story now and apologize upfront for its length.
I was born and raised a Catholic, but never really knew or even cared to know about my faith. When for the first time my faith was questioned by a new neighbor I had no answers and was easily swayed. My new neighbor described himself simply as a Christian. He described his personal relationship with Jesus (something I had never heard of) and frequently quoted from the Bible (again new to me). He used verses in the Bible to both back up his beliefs as well as point out the many errors in the Catholic faith.
After several discussions with him he thoroughly convinced me that the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon, the pope was the anti-Christ and Catholics were cannibals who worshipped Mary among other things. I decided to leave the Catholic Church and find another church to attend. But, that was more difficult than I imagined.
It never occurred to me how many Christian churches there were. When I started looking around I noticed that there were 5 within walking distance from my house and about 100 within a 10 mile radius. There was Lutheran, Methodist, Assembly of God, Pentecostal, Baptist, Presbyterian, and a bunch of non-denominational churches. It was very frustrating for me as each had slightly different practices and set of beliefs. I wasn’t looking for a feel-good church, I was looking for the truth. Which one taught the truth?
So I began researching. And I had 3 things I knew going in: 1) Jesus was my Lord, God, and Savior, 2) The Bible was the Word of God, 3) The Catholic Church preached error. I started with the Bible because I had never read it besides hearing it at Mass. I read through the entire Old Testament and as I read the gospel of Matthew a particular verse stuck out for me and that was MT 16:18, but not for the reason you might think. At the time I could care less about Peter as I learned from my neighbor that it was Peter’s faith that was the rock, and so I focused on the part where Jesus said He would build and protect His Church. So that became my mission…to find that church, Jesus’ Church.
Since I wasn’t sure who taught the truth amongst the many different Christian denominations I decided to look at the early Christian community to see if that might tell me something. I was very surprised to learn that there wasn’t the vast number of denominations we have today. Rather, there was just one Christian church. This was a huge deal to me because since there was just one church and Jesus said He would build His Church then this one had to be it. Just seemed logical to me. Otherwise, Jesus failed to do what He said He’d do. God can’t fail so this must be His Church. So now all I had to do was find out what that Church believed because what they believed had to be the truth since Jesus said He would protect His Church. Again, otherwise He would have failed. Then once I knew the truth I could just compare that with the denominations of today and the one that aligned with Jesus’ Church would be the church for me. Easy as pie I thought, but this is where my research led me in areas that surprised me and where I didn’t want to go.
I started reading about the early Church and was shocked to find out that they believed in the Eucharist, Mary ever-virgin and Mother of God, praying to the dead, and other “Catholic” beliefs. I felt like a dagger went through me each time because my neighbor proved to me why that wasn’t true. Because of my anti-Catholic bias I searched and searched to find anyone within the Church who had different beliefs and couldn’t find anyone. I went from despair to anger knowing I had been deceived. It wasn’t the Catholic Church that got it wrong, but my neighbor who did. I was in Jesus’ Church but never knew it.
As my knowledge grew so did my confidence and I felt God wanting me to help other Catholics to not be so easily swayed as I was. I then started to talk to non-Catholics in person as well as online. I even watched debates between Catholic and non-Catholic apologists to pick up pointers. But, it all came down to the same thing. One side would state their belief and quote scripture, then the other side would say that is wrong and state their belief and back it up with their own Bible verses and then back again…sometimes even using the same verse but with different interpretations. I called it the “my interpretation is better than yours” game and it was horribly frustrating to me as generally it would end in an agreement to disagree if not a fist fight...haha..just kidding! I felt God calling me to do something different.
I felt the Lord calling me to defend the Catholic faith through the rationale He used to bring me back to the Catholic Church. To teach Catholics about how their faith is the only faith that can prove Jesus kept His promise. And this way they wouldn’t have to memorize all the different verses to defend the multiple attacks thrown a Catholic’s way. Basically, a foundation that can be built on if they so desired. At the minimum a way that would give them great confidence in their faith in the face of numerous attacks.
I joined this chat site to test out my method. I wanted to see how non-Catholics would react and if they would have answers. What I didn’t expect at all was indifference. I expected some sort of biblical interpretation as to why their faith would have made them a heretic in the early Christian Church, but instead it’s been basically a “who cares” type attitude. I’m shocked by this. I prove a gap in beliefs and the response is basically “no, there isn’t” or the Catholic Church is bad or a cut and paste from a Catholic hating website or no response at all. No direct response to my contention with not even any real reflection on their part.
Contrast the above with every attack on the Catholic faith where I have provided a scripture verse that backs up the Catholic belief. One may disagree with the Church’s interpretation, but at least I provide my rationale.
Thanks again and sorry for the length. As people started bashing me I felt I owed them the full story no matter how long it might be. And I apologize to everyone who feels that I'm an apologist. I never would have dreamed to call myself that as I always thought of people like Scott Hahn or Tim Staples to be apologists and I'm nowhere near that.
I start my day job on Tuesday so I’ll have much less time to converse, but I’ll do the best I can.
-Ernie-
I'm sorry, Magenta, but just because you say there's not a gap doesn't make it so. Take one example. You say that the Real Presence of Jesus is not in the Eucharist and it is not the real flesh of our Lord. I have evidence that the early Christian Church doesn't agree with you. Catholics today believe as that early Christian Church believed (i.e. no gap). The gap you have is from that early Church to about 1500 when the denial of the Eucharist started taking root. My belief enables me to prove that truth yesterday is still truth today while your belief system says truth today doesn't have to be truth yesterday. Terribly flawed and undermines Christ if we're being intellectually honest.
-Ernie-
-Ernie-
Actually, you don't believe this.
Period.
You are given a chance to be saved. If...
Commit one "mortal sin," and to hell you go.
Period.
You are given a chance to be saved. If...
Commit one "mortal sin," and to hell you go.
I'm a little confused...aren't we saved IF we believe in Jesus? I'm assuming that you believe that even our faith in Jesus is because of grace. My faith has nothing to do with me, but rather the grace that God has provided to me. Without that grace I would have no ability to have faith. I hope we can agree on this.
And just to make clear to you the Catholic teaching on mortal sin. If I commit a mortal sin I'm not necessarily going to hell. If I commit that sin without repenting that is where I will have some trouble. His grace has nothing to do with my sin. Are you saying a person is saved (assume they have a saving faith in Jesus) even if that person later commits adultery and has no remorse or contrition? How would you square that with Eph 5:5 that talks about fornicators not being able to inherit the kingdom of Christ and of God? Not repenting of certain sins results in not inheriting heaven.
And yes, you can point to other verses that seem to contradict the verse (and others) above. That is the whole point of needing a protected Church to sort out these seemingly conflicting verses.
-Ernie-
Roman Catholicism taught (though apologists have denied it, being the liars they are) that outside the Roman Church, there is no salvation. That means you MUST believe what they teach as infallible, or according to them you are not saved. Conclusion: if you do not accept- as you are mandated to do by papal decree- the dogmas of the immaculate conception and life-long sinlessness of Mary (nowhere taught, implied, or alluded to in Scripture, and actually contrary to what Scripture really does teach), and the bodily assumption of Mary to heaven (again, nowhere taught, alluded to, or implied in Scripture) , then you at not part of their heretical church, and again, according to what they used to promote, you would not be saved. Of course now they have finally changed their tune and astoundingly enough say even atheists can be saved if they are good. And, the pope kissing the Satanic Koran is disturbing, to say the least
You are correct that the Catholic Church believes that there is no salvation outside the Church. That is because of the authority as given to it was by Jesus Himself. I understand that you interpret scripture differently, but at least that is the rationale. And if you think about it if I believe the Catholic Church was given the ability to loose and bound per Jesus' words then of course I would be bound by what it teaches. I think you know how I measure who Jesus' Church is so I won't go into that again.
Again, just so that you understand Catholic teaching ANY non-Catholic can be saved as long as they have what is called "invincible ignorance". This doesn't mean that the Church doesn't still believe that it is necessary to be saved. What this means is that if in your heart you believe the Catholic Church is Jesus' Church but refuse to accept it then you are not saved. But, if of no fault of your own (invincible ignorance) you don't believe in the Catholic Church you still have the chance of being saved. The classic example is the person born on an island having never heard of Jesus or His Church. You may disagree, but the Catholic Church doesn't condemn that person to hell.
Hope this helps.
-Ernie-
Hi Lucy,
I totally get where you're coming from and I'd agree with you if I used your logic. At the time this doctrine was introduced there were those that denied the divinity of Jesus. The Church simply said that since Jesus is both fully man and fully God then Mary was His mother for both natures. Of course Catholics don't believe that Mary was "born" before Jesus in the sense of a human mom is, but that doesn't stop anti-Catholic websites slanting it as if that's what Catholics believe.
As for the visions I'm not sure why that upsets you unless you don't believe that miracles happen today. The visions were validated and miracles occurred. I've never witnessed a miracle personally, but I do believe they can happen for all things are possible for those who believe. Does it upset you because the visions are of Mary (rather than Jesus) or do you not believe miracles can happen? Honest question, I truly am not sure what you believe.
Regarding the prayer you posted, to be honest, I can see how you would take that as worshiping Mary. But, one would have to have a preconceived notion about the worship of Mary to come to that conclusion. As a Catholic I don't see anything where I'm worshiping Mary rather than giving her great honor. She is the purest and fairest and holiest of all creatures of all God's handiwork. Catholics would understand this to not include Jesus because He is that handiwork. The rest of the prayer speaks to what the Church believes and calls out Jesus as the Word Incarnate and the pardoner of sins. That you see something sinister in that is due to preconceived bias. No true Catholic worships Mary no matter how hard you want that to be.
-Ernie-
I totally get where you're coming from and I'd agree with you if I used your logic. At the time this doctrine was introduced there were those that denied the divinity of Jesus. The Church simply said that since Jesus is both fully man and fully God then Mary was His mother for both natures. Of course Catholics don't believe that Mary was "born" before Jesus in the sense of a human mom is, but that doesn't stop anti-Catholic websites slanting it as if that's what Catholics believe.
As for the visions I'm not sure why that upsets you unless you don't believe that miracles happen today. The visions were validated and miracles occurred. I've never witnessed a miracle personally, but I do believe they can happen for all things are possible for those who believe. Does it upset you because the visions are of Mary (rather than Jesus) or do you not believe miracles can happen? Honest question, I truly am not sure what you believe.
Regarding the prayer you posted, to be honest, I can see how you would take that as worshiping Mary. But, one would have to have a preconceived notion about the worship of Mary to come to that conclusion. As a Catholic I don't see anything where I'm worshiping Mary rather than giving her great honor. She is the purest and fairest and holiest of all creatures of all God's handiwork. Catholics would understand this to not include Jesus because He is that handiwork. The rest of the prayer speaks to what the Church believes and calls out Jesus as the Word Incarnate and the pardoner of sins. That you see something sinister in that is due to preconceived bias. No true Catholic worships Mary no matter how hard you want that to be.
-Ernie-