Is Catholicism Christian? Are Catholics Saved?

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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
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The bolded comment sums up most of the people on this thread. I have no doubt that all of you have your own interpretations and that more often than not they are in opposition to the Catholic Church teaching. The fact that your interpretation would have had you labeled a heretic (non-Christian) by the early Christian Church is somehow lost on you. I'm a Christian today and can prove that I would have been labeled a Christian for all times by the Church. That is of utmost importance to me...my personal beliefs, emotions, interpretations, thoughts, ideas, etc. all pale in comparison to being able to validate Jesus kept His promise to protect His Church.

-Ernie-
lol the early church of the first two hundred years would have labelled you a heretic,
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,763
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That is of utmost importance to me...my personal beliefs, emotions, interpretations, thoughts, ideas, etc. all pale in comparison to being able to validate Jesus kept His promise to protect His Church.
Ernie,
You have fallen into the trap of regarding the RCC as "the Church". I have a thread on '"The Church" and churches' which shows from Scripture that "the Church" consists of the blood-bought, blood-washed children of God, whether Jews or Gentiles. That is the Body, the Bride, and the Building of Christ.

And Christ has protected His Church by (1) exposing the false teachings of the RCC and (2) giving us His Holy Word to determine what is true and what is false.

Where did the title "Pontifex Maximus" come from? Pagan Rome.

Has the bishop of Rome always held on to this title within the Catholic Church? Absolutely.

The Pontifex Maximus (which literally means "Greatest Pontiff") was the high priest of the Ancient Roman College of Pontiffs. This was the most important position in the ancient Roman religion, open only to patricians until 254 B.C.E., when a plebeian first occupied this post. A distinctly religious office under the early Roman Republic, it gradually became politicized until, beginning with Emperor Augustus, it was subsumed into the Imperial office. Its last use with reference to the emperors is found in inscriptions of Gratian, Emperor from 375 to 383 C.E., who, however, then decided to omit the words "pontifex maximus" from his title.

The title of "Pontifex Maximus," dating back to the times of the Roman Republic, was eventually adopted by the leader of the Roman Catholic Church.
The terms pontifex maximus and summus pontifex were for centuries used by the Bishop of Rome also known as the pope. After Christ himself, the pope is considered to be the "high priest" (the veritable meaning of summus pontifex and "pontifex maximus"). However, this term is not officially included in his titles, but it is used in practice in the headings of his encyclicals and other papal documents.
Pontifex Maximus - New World Encyclopedia
 
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[TABLE="width: 590"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Pre-Roman Catholic False teachings [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]200 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Immersion of infants who are dying, but considered sinless. (Tertullian V.12)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]250 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]North Africa region is first to practice infant baptism and reduced the age of baptism from minors to all newborns. This is opposed by other regions.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]257 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Baptism by sprinkling for adults instead of immersion first used as an exception for those on sick beds, but it caused great dispute.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]300 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Prayers for the dead[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]320 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Special dress code of the clergy in worship[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]325 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]At the general council of Nice, 325, it was proposed indeed, probably by the Western bishop Hosius, to forbid entirely the marriage of priests; but the motion met with strong opposition, and was rejected.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]Introduction of New Catholic doctrines not found in the Bible[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
OK, here are my answers to this part of the list with more to follow...first a general question that I'm hoping you can answer:

Why does this site call all beliefs prior to 800 A.D. as Pre-Roman Catholic false teachings? There was just 1 Christian Church at the time. Assuming these are truly false teachings then who was the real Church, what did they believe, and what evidence do you have of this?

As for the answers to the above list:

Infant baptism…why is that considered false? It was a practice of the early Church with individuals like Irenaeus, Tertullian, and others believing in it. Who disbelieved this in the early Church? At the council of Carthage in 253 A.D. baptism being withheld from infants until the 8[SUP]th[/SUP] day after birth was condemned. And then in the councils at Carthage in 401 and 418 A.D. it was stated that “whoever says infants not to be baptized let them be excommunicated”
But, Irenaeus in 189 A.D. and Hippolytus in 215 A.D. both describe the importance of baptizing infants. To say this practice first occurred is simply a historical untruth.

Baptizo can mean immersion, washing up (Luke 11:38), or pouring (Acts 2:17, 18, 33). Depending on interpretation immersion or sprinkling can be valid.

There is evidence in the catacombs based on inscriptions that have been discovered that show that prayers for the dead was accepted and done. This was as early as 70’s A.D. The council of Gangra in 358 A.D. made the formal decree of those who refuse Holy Days for saints to be excommunicated.

As for special dress code who cares? I've been to non-Catholic churches where pastors have worn a suit, jeans, and dress pants and shirt...where in the Bible does it say that can wear those?

I don’t know when priest celibacy became a doctrine of the Church, but it is based on many of Paul’s writings where he states that it is better to be unmarried (1 Cor 7:27-34, 38) and by Jesus Himself in MT 19:10-12. It is also not mandatory, but rather done voluntarily as no one is forced to be a priest.

More to come...

-Ernie-
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
OK, here are my answers to this part of the list with more to follow...first a general question that I'm hoping you can answer:

Why does this site call all beliefs prior to 800 A.D. as Pre-Roman Catholic false teachings?


All FALSE teachings before 8th century AD had to be pre-Roman Catholic false teachings. For there was no Roman Catholic church before 8th century.

There was just 1 Christian Church at the time.
This is not true if you mean by that a Christian church under a hierarchy. There is just 1 Christian church today, formed of true believers in Christ from many denominations. But the unity is a spiritual unity not a physical unity. Churches which are bound by a hierarchy are not and never have been the 'one true catholic (universal) church'.

who was the real Church, what did they believe, and what evidence do you have of this?
The Pauline churches, the Johannine churches, the Petrine churches (NOT ROME) were all members of the one true 'catholic (universal) church' which was made up of independent churches round the world. READ the epistles.

It was not until late 2nd century that they began to gather into groups around a main center driven by persecution and to combat other groupings..

By 4th century there were groups of semi-independent churches gathered in different areas, one under Alexandria, the second under Antioch, the third under Carthage, the fourth under Rome, the fifth the Celtic churches, and so on. And the churches of Alexandria and Antioch claimed preeminence to Rome.

There WAS NO central recognised authority,

 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,938
113
Hi Angela,

For the purposes of time I will focus on the first Chronicle that being the Eucharist. The following logic would apply to the other 4 Chronicles as well.

This is a perfect example of why we must balance our education to hear from both sides. When I was an anti-Catholic all I heard was what my neighbor decreed as truth based on his personal interpretation of scripture and all I read was his books and sites that aligned with his interpretation. And like this article they are all very convincing. The problem is that they already have the answer "The Catholic Church is to be hated" so their explanations only show those things that align with their beliefs. Here are a few things this offer refused to include in his article either by ignorance or deception. Either way is disgraceful because you are misleading people.

In the council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. the Eucharist is called out as "the most necessary viaticum" and "the body of Christ. Viaticum is defined as the Eucharist as give to those near death. Then the council of Ephesus in 431 A.D. describes the "unbloody worship...partaking of the real flesh of the Word". This was the universal belief of the Church from its very beginning. The Church never defined how this occurs that the bread and wine changed into the Body and Blood of our Lord, just that it happened. Over time and much prayer and discernment Jesus' Church defined how it happens....not that it does happen which was believed 1200 years earlier.

If this writer is going to use the council of Trent in his piece why wouldn't he also use the words of earlier councils? I can't be sure, but I would bet so that he can deceive people into thinking the concept of the Eucharist was invented at the council of Trent. Intellectually lazy at the minimum, deceptive and evil at the worst.

If you read my faith journey post the best advice I can give by far is to balance your research. Don't just focus on Catholic hating sites. Go visit Catholic sites as well. Keep an open mind and let the Holy Spirit guide you into answering the question, "would my beliefs today be called Christian 'yesterday' and at all times"? If not then ask yourself, "why is that?"

-Ernie-

-Ernie-

We must have cross posted, so I am glad you had a look at one of these. I’m not sure what more, other than checking the Bible against Catholic doctrine and documents one can do.

First, I consider the early church to be the church up till approximately the end of the first century BC, depending upon when you peg Revelation and John’s epistles as being written. The early church were the people in DIRECT contact with the living Jesus. That is why we can accept the books these people wrote as canon. Because they knew Jesus! Of course, Paul knew him after he was risen, but apparently Jesus taught him much after his conversion, which is why a good portion of the NT was written by him. For me, Paul is the founder of the church. “This rock” always cited by Catholics, is a bit different in Greek. Something to do with petros, vs petra.

”The New Testament was originally written in the Greek, from which the Latin, English, and other versions were translated. If you study the Greek text you will find that the word Peter and the word Rock on which Christ was to build His church are two separate and distinct words, each having a different meaning. The word Peter in Greek is petros, which means "a piece of rock; a stone; a single stone; movable, insecure, shifting, or roll*ing." The word rock is petra, which means "a rock; a cliff; a projecting rock; mother rock; huge mass; solid formation; fixed; immovable; enduring."

The word petros for Peter in the Greek is in the masculine gender and the word petra for the rock is in the feminine gender. Petros and petra are two distinct words in the Greek. Petros is a shifting, rolling, or insecure stone, while petra is a solid, immov*able rock. In the English language the gender is not specified by the article. We say the fork, the spoon, and the knife. The three words have the same article. In the Greek, as in many of the modern languages, each noun and corresponding article is in the masculine, feminine, or neuter gender. In many cases it is an arbitrary arrangement, regardless of sex.

The article in Greek is important. If one noun is in the masculine it must have a masculine article, and if it is in the feminine it must have a feminine article. The text under consideration in the Greek shows that petros is in the masculine, and petra in the feminine, proving that they are two distinct words; and each one has a different meaning. Now the question is, on which of the two, petros or petra, did Christ establish His church? Was it on petros, a movable stone, or petra, an immovable rock?

Let us quote the text again: "I say also unto thee [to Peter], That thou art Peter [petros, masculine gender], and upon this Rock [petra, feminine gender] I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). The text indicates clearly that the church of Christ is built on petra and not on Petros.

Now, who is this petra or rock on which Christ built His true church? Let the Holy Bible again give the answer. If the Bible gives the answer, we make no mistake in accepting it because the definition is authentic. "They drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock [petra, in the Greek] was Christ" (1 Corinthians 10:4). Here we have evidence that petra refers to Christ, and not to Peter, petros. Again we quote: "Jesus Christ Himself being the chief Cornerstone" (Ephesians 2:20) "He is the Rock, His work is perfect" (Deuteronomy 32:4; 2 Samuel 22:2-3) (Douay, 2 Kings 22:2-3).

If Peter is the rock on which Christ was to build His church, Peter could not be overcome and the gates of hell could not prevail against him. But the fact is that he was overcome, and the gates of hell did prevail against him. Didn't he deny his Lord? This was after Christ told him that the Rock was not to be overcome. Jesus told Peter on one occasion: "Get thee behind Me, Satan: thou art an offense unto Me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men" (Matthew 16:23). Peter himself gives the answer as to who the Rock is. He says Jesus is “the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matt. 16:16). Again, speaking of Christ, he says: "This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders" (Acts 4:10-11); so Christ, the Son of God, must be the rock on which God built His church.

If Jesus would have built His church on Peter, petros, He would have said: "Thou art Petros, and upon this Petros [or upon it] I will build My church," but such is not the case. He plainly says: "Thou art Petros, and upon this petra I will build My church.” Paul tells us that the petra is Christ. He also says, “For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ” (1 Cor. 3:11). Peter is never designated by petra. Thus, Peter and Paul agree that Christ is the Rock; but the pope claims the title for himself. Which testimony should we accept? "Let God be true, but every man a liar" (Romans 3:4).”

Is The Church Built on
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,938
113
OK, here are my answers to this part of the list with more to follow...first a general question that I'm hoping you can answer:

Why does this site call all beliefs prior to 800 A.D. as Pre-Roman Catholic false teachings? There was just 1 Christian Church at the time. Assuming these are truly false teachings then who was the real Church, what did they believe, and what evidence do you have of this?

As for the answers to the above list:

Infant baptism…why is that considered false? It was a practice of the early Church with individuals like Irenaeus, Tertullian, and others believing in it. Who disbelieved this in the early Church? At the council of Carthage in 253 A.D. baptism being withheld from infants until the 8[SUP]th[/SUP] day after birth was condemned. And then in the councils at Carthage in 401 and 418 A.D. it was stated that “whoever says infants not to be baptized let them be excommunicated”
But, Irenaeus in 189 A.D. and Hippolytus in 215 A.D. both describe the importance of baptizing infants. To say this practice first occurred is simply a historical untruth.

Baptizo can mean immersion, washing up (Luke 11:38), or pouring (Acts 2:17, 18, 33). Depending on interpretation immersion or sprinkling can be valid.

There is evidence in the catacombs based on inscriptions that have been discovered that show that prayers for the dead was accepted and done. This was as early as 70’s A.D. The council of Gangra in 358 A.D. made the formal decree of those who refuse Holy Days for saints to be excommunicated.

As for special dress code who cares? I've been to non-Catholic churches where pastors have worn a suit, jeans, and dress pants and shirt...where in the Bible does it say that can wear those?

I don’t know when priest celibacy became a doctrine of the Church, but it is based on many of Paul’s writings where he states that it is better to be unmarried (1 Cor 7:27-34, 38) and by Jesus Himself in MT 19:10-12. It is also not mandatory, but rather done voluntarily as no one is forced to be a priest.

More to come...

-Ernie-

So was Peter the apostle a priest? I’ve heard it said by at least one pope, that since the apostles were all single, therefore, all priests should be single.

Except Peter had a mother-in-law, meaning he was married. And this incident of healing his MIL occurs three times in the Bible

The healing of the mother of Peter's wife is one of the miracles of Jesus in the Gospels, reported in Matthew 8:14–15, Mark 1:29–31, and Luke 4:38–41. In the Gospels of Mark and Luke, this episode takes place after Jesus had been preaching at the synagogue of Capernaum.”

Further, I need some research and facts on what happened in the Catatombs. Baptising people with sprinkling is recommended in the Didache, in places which do not have water, like the desert. I can certainly see that purpose. But, no justification for baptizing infants in spite of Acts 16
.
 
Dec 26, 2017
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[TABLE="width: 590"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]Pre-Roman Catholic False teachings [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]325 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]The date for Easter was set.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]379 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Praying to Mary & Saints. (prayers of Ephraim Syrus)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]385 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]In the West, the first prohibition of clerical marriage, which laid claim to universal ecclesiastical authority, proceeded in 385 from the Roman church in the form of a decretal letter of the bishop Siricius to Himerius, bishop of Tarragona in Spain.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]389 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Mariolatry begins with Gregory Nazianzen, who mentions in a eulogy, how Justina had besought the virgin Mary to protect her virginity.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]400 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Impossibility of apostasy or once saved always saved, (Augustine XII.9)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]416 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Infant baptism by immersion commanded of all infants (Council Of Mela, Austin was the principal director)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]430 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Exhalation of Virgin Mary: "Mother of God" first applied by the Council of Ephesus[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"]502 AD[/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"]Special dress code of the Clergy all the time.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 18%"][/TD]
[TD="width: 82%"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
http://www.bible.ca/cath-new-doctrines.htm
More answers...

Who cares when the date of Easter was set? Is a specific date given in the Bible? We can all agree that it happened and that we don’t know the exact date. So in order to celebrate the resurrection of our Lord a date was set.

Praying to Mary and Saints starting in 379 A.D. is just silly. Just a tiny bit of research would have shown that the council of Gangra discussed praying to saints in 358 A.D. and said that those who refuse Holy Days for saints would be excommunicated.

Not sure how this is different from priest celibacy that I’ve already answered.

Mariolatry supposedly begins with Gregory Nazianzen where he asked for the aid of Mary. If I asked you to pray for me are you aiding me? I’d say yes. Same for Mary. How is this idolatry?

Once saved always saved is not a belief of the early Christian Church. Yes, I agree with that. It's as if you're proving my point. How is this false teaching? If anything it proves that those that believe this today are in error. Can you share who disagreed with this belief? If no one, why did the Holy Spirit mislead the early Christian Church for 1500 years?

The only reference to the council of Mela is from anti-Catholic sites. I literally can’t find any reference to balance my research so I can’t comment.

Mary Mother of God declared as infallible belief. It’s as if this author doesn’t realize that this belief represents the early Christian Church rather than the Catholic Church. I’m confused as this makes my point. Who disbelieved this? Even Martin Luther believed this.

Already answered…not sure why this is important.

-Ernie-
 
Dec 26, 2017
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lol the early church of the first two hundred years would have labelled you a heretic,
Prove it. I've proven my contention by quoting from numerous church councils of the early Church. Where is the evidence that I would have been labeled a heretic?

-Ernie-
 
Dec 26, 2017
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Prayer to st Joseph

Blessed Joseph, husband of Mary,
be with us this day.
You protected and cherished the Virgin;
loving the Child Jesus as your Son,
you rescued Him from the danger of death.
Defend the Church,
the household of God,
purchased by the Blood of Christ.

Guardian of the Holy Family,
be with us in our trials.
May your prayers obtain for us
the strength to flee from error
and wrestle with the powers of corruption
so that in life we may grow in holiness
and in death rejoice in the crown of victory.

Amen.

Look like catholic believe Joseph protect Mary, and Jesus. In this prayer, hide a new doctrine that human able to protect God.

Did God need human protection?

Joseph protected the man Jesus. Because Jesus was God are you saying that Jesus as an infant wouldn't have possibly wandered off and hurt Himself? Why then did Joseph need to take Mary and Jesus away from Herod? I'm sorry, but this is starting to get silly.

-Ernie-
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
growth of RC doctrine (some dates are approximate)
1 . Prayers for the dead . …………-------------------……300 A.D.

2. Making the sign of the cross ………………………… …300 A.D.
3. Veneration of angels & dead saints …………---------…….375 A.D.
4. Use of images in worship………………………………… . 375 A.D.
5. The Mass as a daily celebration……………………………… 394 A.D.

6. Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, "Mother of God" applied a Council of Ephesus……………. .----------------------------------------- 431 A.D.
7. Extreme Unction (Last Rites)……………………………… ..526 A.D.
8. Doctrine of Purgatory-Gregory 1…………………………… .593 A.D..
9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints ……………………………… .600 A.D.
10. Worship of cross, images & relics ……………………… … 786 A.D.
11 Canonization of dead saints ………………………………… ..995 A.D.

12. Celibacy of priesthood …………………………………… …1079 A.D.
13. The Rosary ……………………………………………… … 1090 A.D.
14. Indulgences ……………………………………………… …..1190 A.D.
15. Transubstantiation-Innocent III …………………………… 1215 A.D.

16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest …………………… 1215 A.D.
17. Adoration of the wafer (Host)…………………………… .. 1220 A.D.
18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion …………………..1414 A.D.

19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma……………………………..1439 A.D.
20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed …………….1439 A.D.
21 Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent…………………………………………----------------… 1545 A.D.

22. Apocryphal books added to Bible ………------------……….1546 A.D.
23. Immaculate Conception of Mary……………………………….1854 A.D.
24, Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council ……………… 1870 A.D.
25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) ……………………………-----------------------------------……1950 A.D.
26. Mary proclaimed Mother of the Church……………………… 1965 A.D.

 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
Prove it. I've proven my contention by quoting from numerous church councils of the early Church. Where is the evidence that I would have been labeled a heretic?

-Ernie-
you have quote from late councils when heresy had set in. Read the NT and the earliest church.

growth of RC doctrine (some dates are approximate)
1 . Prayers for the dead . …………-------------------……300 A.D.

2. Making the sign of the cross ………………………… …300 A.D.
3. Veneration of angels & dead saints …………---------…….375 A.D.
4. Use of images in worship………………………………… . 375 A.D.
5. The Mass as a daily celebration……………………………… 394 A.D.

6. Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, "Mother of God" applied a Council of Ephesus……………. .----------------------------------------- 431 A.D.
7. Extreme Unction (Last Rites)……………………………… ..526 A.D.
8. Doctrine of Purgatory-Gregory 1…………………………… .593 A.D..
9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints ……………………………… .600 A.D.
10. Worship of cross, images & relics ……………………… … 786 A.D.
11 Canonization of dead saints ………………………………… ..995 A.D.

12. Celibacy of priesthood …………………………………… …1079 A.D.
13. The Rosary ……………………………………………… … 1090 A.D.
14. Indulgences ……………………………………………… …..1190 A.D.
15. Transubstantiation-Innocent III …………………………… 1215 A.D.

16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest …………………… 1215 A.D.
17. Adoration of the wafer (Host)…………………………… .. 1220 A.D.
18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion …………………..1414 A.D.

19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma……………………………..1439 A.D.
20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed …………….1439 A.D.
21 Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent…………………………………………----------------… 1545 A.D.

22. Apocryphal books added to Bible ………------------……….1546 A.D.
23. Immaculate Conception of Mary……………………………….1854 A.D.
24, Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council ……………… 1870 A.D.
25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) ……………………………-----------------------------------……1950 A.D.
26. Mary proclaimed Mother of the Church……………………… 1965 A.D.

 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
Joseph protected the man Jesus. Because Jesus was God are you saying that Jesus as an infant wouldn't have possibly wandered off and hurt Himself? Why then did Joseph need to take Mary and Jesus away from Herod? I'm sorry, but this is starting to get silly.

-Ernie-
as far AS I know, God protect Jesus by asking joseph go to agypt. I give the credit for God.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
as far AS I know, God protect Jesus by asking joseph go to agypt. I give the credit for God.
i do not understand why in this prayer say defend the church? Is that during his life or forever?
 
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Some of us are ex-Catholics. You don't fool us.

Haven't we already discussed this? You are again making the false claim that the Catholic denomination was established with Peter. That isn't the truth.

What was the CHOSEN FISHERMAN'S NAME ... (Simon!) ... before Jesus said to him, "Thou art Peter (meaning petros or ROCK), and upon THIS ROCK I will build my church."


Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

New Living Translation
Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means 'rock'), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it.
 
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Hi Nehemiah,

Why does it bother you that the word "Purgatory" isn't in the Bible but then not be equally bothered that the word "Trinity" isn't used in the Bible? Doesn't it bother you that the very essence of our faith is not mentioned even once? Why leave arguably the most important belief in the Christian faith up for interpretation? Because of not being ultra clear about the concept of the Trinity there was significant disagreements among early Christians. And the Church needed to formally declare that what it believed was that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was 1 God in 3 persons. Why not just make it more clear? Because of the lack of clarity in some beliefs (even the most important one) is why Jesus created a Church that would be protected from error and would interpret the truth correctly. Surely not a Church where everyone can interpret and believe as they feel the Holy Spirit calling to them. Jesus is about truth, not chaos.

If in fact the Orthodox Church no longer believes in Purgatory then they no longer teach the truth on that topic...unless they have a new meaning for why it is a good and wholesome thought to pray for the dead (2 Mach 12:46). No need to pray for those in heaven or hell so where are they who we are praying for? That one little verse in the Bible is why the Reformers removed the 7 books in the Bible. Imagine you explaining away Purgatory if you had to contend with that verse? Luther thought the same thing. He even tried to remove James because of "faith without works is dead" and add the word "alone" to saved by faith in Romans, but that was too much for even him. His belief system is based on a lie that has been perpetuated for over 500 years.

Prove me wrong.

-Ernie-

Agreed ... and it only took Jesus (the Only begotten Son of God) just over a mere one thousand five hundred years before all the doctrine was CORRECTED, and "all the major ERRORS were EXPUNGED! "SIN STRONGLY" should have been the message from Jesus Himself, instead of Jesus telling multiple people, "Go, and SIN NO MORE"!!!
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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What was the CHOSEN FISHERMAN'S NAME ... (Simon!) ... before Jesus said to him, "Thou art Peter (meaning petros or ROCK), and upon THIS ROCK I will build my church."


Matthew 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

New Living Translation
Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means 'rock'), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it.
What does that have to do with The Catholic Church specifically?
 
Feb 28, 2016
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all of the 'saved ones' will only follow Jesus' Ways, and obey what He
has taught us through His prophets and Holy Ways/Words that He
obeyed/taught us through His Love for His Father and His Father's Love for Him...
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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Denominations are not relevant to God. He looks upon the inward man. It's what we do with Jesus that makes all the difference.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Seem to me catholic believe Jesus teach to kill heretic, I do not know when Jesus teach that.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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Seem to me catholic believe Jesus teach to kill heretic, I do not know when Jesus teach that.
I never read in the bible Jesus teach to sadistically kill heretic. I believe this sadistic killer is heretic themselve.

Sadistic self declare that he is heretic, No need more evident. Because I love catholic people I have to tell the truth. You still have time to ponder, why follow sadistic killer.