Against Calvinism: God (Jesus) did not know...

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Calmador

Senior Member
Jun 23, 2011
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#1
I think this post is against Calvinism in that Calvinism has an emphasis on God's power such as knowing the future.

Matthew 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

I can see two possibilities. Jesus had no God-power at this point in time or Jesus did have God-power, but did not use his God-power at this time. Either way we can definitely say that Jesus did not use God-power to know the "day or the hour."

That being said, God is still God even without using his power... even if say I went up to God and physically overpowered him and restrained him (it is possible... the Romans did it)... even if I asked him a question and he didn't know the answer.

The implicit truth here is that God does not need to practice his power all the time... every time. This truth is demonstrated by God (Jesus) who did not know the "day or the hour."

From this truth follows the question, when does God NOT use his power? Here's an answer, I'd say this means God does not have to use much or any of his power to be God. God could still be all powerful... yet not use his any or some of his power.

It also looks like there is something going on in the trinity relationship.

Thoughts? Answers to the question?
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
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#2
You thinking is a good example of trying to use western culture to interpret a near eastern cultural idea. Christ's coming and His elect or the Church are all related to the wedding festival to show us how the Lord works in salvation and in His return.

In the Near Eastern culture the father chose the bride for his son, example Genesis 24:1-9

“Now Abraham was old, well advanced in years. And the Lord had blessed Abraham in all things.2 And Abraham said to his servant, the oldest of his household, who had charge of all that he had, “Put your hand under my thigh,3 that I may make you swear by the Lord, the God of heaven and God of the earth, that you will not take a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell,4 but will go to my country and to my kindred, and take a wife for my son Isaac.”5 The servant said to him, “Perhaps the woman may not be willing to follow me to this land. Must I then take your son back to the land from which you came?”6 Abraham said to him, “See to it that you do not take my son back there.7 The Lord, the God of heaven, who took me from my father's house and from the land of my kindred, and who spoke to me and swore to me, ‘To your offspring I will give this land,’ he will send his angel before you, and you shall take a wife for my son from there.8 But if the woman is not willing to follow you, then you will be free from this oath of mine; only you must not take my son back there.”9 So the servant put his hand under the thigh of Abraham his master and swore to him concerning this matter.”

In the same way the Father chose the bride for Chirst. Ephesians 1:3-10

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,4 even as he (the Father) chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.”

Now once the father had found a bride for the son, the son would begin to build on to the father's house so he could bring his bride there to live. The son would build with his friends helping him and when the father thought it was time he would tell the son go get your bride. This is why Jesus told us that He does not know the time or day, it is alos why He said I go to my Father and prepare a place.

John 14:1-4 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.4 And you know the way to where I am going.”

The reason Jesus does not know the day or the hour is because He has submitted to the Father in His wedding with His bride. There is no time when Jesus was not fully God or He would not be God at all. The idea of the Father and the Son are from Jewish culture as well, "son of" mean of the same nature, if you go back and start reading in II Kings chapter 2 - 9 you will see the mention of the "sons of the prophets" are they Elijiah's or Elisha's sons? No, they are prophets like Elijiah and Elisha or they have the same nature as they do, the nature of a prophet.

The term, "the father or father of" means from where it "preceeds from or comes forth" The reason that God is called the Father, is because Jesus proceeds forth form Him or He sent Jesus to us and Jesus is the Son of God because He is God that preceeds from the Father and He is the Son of Man, yet He does not have a human father, But the Father did prepeare a body ofr Him Hebrews 10:5
“Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me;”


But He is not the Son of God because He is born of God, He has been God for all of eternity, He has no beginning or end. Yet He is the Son of God and the Son of Man, because He has both natures. We need to understand the Jewish culture to fully understand how our relationship with Chirst is we need to understand the culture of the wedding and to understand His retrun we also need to understand that wedding feast, ceremony and where the newly weds live once they are married.

Here's a link with some information, https://www.gotquestions.org/Jewish-wedding-traditions.html

I read the Background Commantary of the NT by IVP and Zondervan Illustrated Bible Backgrounds Commentary New Testament
 
Apr 23, 2017
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#3
one of the tings i like on this forum is seeing how people think u see......... its so different from my thought process. do i have a western mindset? eastern mindset? nah mon i got the island mindset u see.

i never thought of this when i read that verse u see... i overstood it to mean Jesus didnt know in the flesh but as God He does.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#4
Jesus as the Son of man as that seen in respect to his flesh did not receive the honor of revealing the hour. When approached as good Master he would give that glory to our unseen God. Saying only God not seen is good to help emphasize we walk by faith not requiring an outward sign before a person would believe.

When they did want to crown him King he would hide himself as a parable hides the spiritual understanding.

While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: Joh 12:36

It is the same principle with blasphemy. Peter when denying Christ blasphemed the Son of man as that seen, he was forgiven .
If a person blasphemed the Holy Spirit not seen they will be held accountable and not be forgiven.

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men:(as that seen) but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (not seen) shall not be forgiven unto men.

God is not a man as us never was never could be.

We walk by the faith that comes from hearing God not seen and not by sight according to the prescribed manner.

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal..
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#5
I fail to see how it is against calvinism.

Its said that God elected us before the foundation of the world. So He did use His power for this.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,536
3,502
113
#6
I fail to see how it is against calvinism.

Its said that God elected us before the foundation of the world. So He did use His power for this.
The only one elected from the foundation of the world is Jesus Christ.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#7
The only one elected from the foundation of the world is Jesus Christ.
"all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life"
Rev 13:8
 
May 11, 2014
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#8
"all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life"
Rev 13:8
Trying to confuse us with facts are you?
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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#10
I think this post is against Calvinism
No, your post is against revealed and comprehensive truth and falls short of 2 Timothy 2:15...


Matthew 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
Your pretext and verse-ology leads you astray.

I can see two possibilities. Jesus had no God-power at this point in time or Jesus did have God-power, but did not use his God-power at this time. Either way we can definitely say that Jesus did not use God-power to know the "day or the hour."
He was submissive to the Father.

That being said, God is still God even without using his power... even if say I went up to God and physically overpowered him and restrained him (it is possible... the Romans did it)... even if I asked him a question and he didn't know the answer.
The Romans didn't over-power God. It is an obtuse and ignorant conclusion. See, this is your failure to understand the full Scripture and use it correctly, 2 Timothy 2:15; John 10:17-18. You are going by pretexts which always lead to error, a truncated gospel, and a mitigated god.

The implicit truth here is that God does not need to practice his power all the time... every time. This truth is demonstrated by God (Jesus) who did not know the "day or the hour."

From this truth follows the question, when does God NOT use his power? Here's an answer, I'd say this means God does not have to use much or any of his power to be God. God could still be all powerful... yet not use his any or some of his power.

It also looks like there is something going on in the trinity relationship.

Thoughts? Answers to the question?
Keep studying, as with all we still need to.

Please read your Bible through, several times, and then again, and garner some teachers to help you from the path that is leading you astray, Ephesians 4:11,12,13,14ff. If your answer is "I have read it through several times" it is an excuse, and you are not rightly handling the Word of God. You are coming to some false conclusions, good questions, but you are making some errors. Glad to see someone thinking, yet you are heading off into Open Theism.
 
Last edited:
Apr 23, 2017
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#11
have mercy preacher u see...... but look at the signature u see??? how are those verses refuting calvinism.. thats not the case.

sekkluud mon.... has open theism always been around or did they just invent it yesterday and its the theology flavor of the decade?
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
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#12
The only one elected from the foundation of the world is Jesus Christ.
He is the one that did the electing even before a person did anything good or evil .

He remains without father or mother beginning of Spirit life or end thereof.

The work of salvation was finished in the 6 days he did work.That work was demonstrated outwardly thousands of years later.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,760
113
#13
I think this post is against Calvinism in that Calvinism has an emphasis on God's power such as knowing the future.
It is partly that but more importantly Reformed Theology teaches that God in His sovereignty has DECREED that some men will go to Heaven and others will go to Hell, and NOT because He foreknew who would obey the Gospel and who would not.

Matthew 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
This cannot be used as evidence of limited foreknowledge by God, since at the time Jesus said this, the Father and the Holy Spirit still knew absolutely everything which was to come. And perhaps it was only in this particular matter that Jesus of Nazareth was temporarily kept from knowing the day and the hour of His second coming. But now that He is exalted in Heaven, this is no longer the case.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,536
3,502
113
#14
"all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life"
Rev 13:8
Book of life and in Christ are not the same just saying
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#15
I think this post is against Calvinism in that Calvinism has an emphasis on God's power such as knowing the future.

Matthew 24:36 "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

I can see two possibilities. Jesus had no God-power at this point in time or Jesus did have God-power, but did not use his God-power at this time. Either way we can definitely say that Jesus did not use God-power to know the "day or the hour."

That being said, God is still God even without using his power... even if say I went up to God and physically overpowered him and restrained him (it is possible... the Romans did it)... even if I asked him a question and he didn't know the answer.

The implicit truth here is that God does not need to practice his power all the time... every time. This truth is demonstrated by God (Jesus) who did not know the "day or the hour."

From this truth follows the question, when does God NOT use his power? Here's an answer, I'd say this means God does not have to use much or any of his power to be God. God could still be all powerful... yet not use his any or some of his power.

It also looks like there is something going on in the trinity relationship.

Thoughts? Answers to the question?
My thought? My thought is why do you do this? It doesn't seem to glorify God. More like using him as your hammer to smoosh those who you don't like.

God is powerful, and he's not your weapon. So your use of time is ineffective, useless, and questionable.

Since you asked for my thoughts.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#16
have mercy preacher u see...... but look at the signature u see??? how are those verses refuting calvinism.. thats not the case.

sekkluud mon.... has open theism always been around or did they just invent it yesterday and its the theology flavor of the decade?
I need Jamaican to American translation, please. What's "sekkluud" in American. (I'm going with "mon" is "man." Spent a few hours on your island once. :rolleyes: And please note, American isn't British English anymore than Jamaican is.) So, if'n you can translate to Ameri-speak, I'd appreciate it.

Just nosy. Not out to argue. lol
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#17
Book of life and in Christ are not the same just saying
Well, this was not the point at all.

The point was that it was clear before the foundation of the world.
 
Apr 23, 2017
1,064
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#18
I need Jamaican to American translation, please. What's "sekkluud" in American. (I'm going with "mon" is "man." Spent a few hours on your island once. :rolleyes: And please note, American isn't British English anymore than Jamaican is.) So, if'n you can translate to Ameri-speak, I'd appreciate it.

Just nosy. Not out to argue. lol
ah yes u see.
sekkluud means facepalm.

some people pointed out i type overstand, its normal its how i say it.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,536
3,502
113
#19
Well, this was not the point at all.

The point was that it was clear before the foundation of the world.
No one was placed in Christ before the foundation of the world...