WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

[shrume]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

Why were Isaiah or Jonah NOT Prophets...Their Phophecies are still at 100%

Isaiah and Jonah were prophets.

Tourist claimed:

If you are a prophet then everything you predict must happen with 100% certainty.

In Isa 38, Isaiah spoke “by the word of the Lord” (he prophesied) that Hezekiah was about to die. It did not happen. Instead, Hezekiah prayed, and God gave him 15 more years.

In Jonah 3:4, Jonah prophesied that Nineveh was about to be overthrown. It did not happen. Instead, Nineveh repented.

The point is that prophesies can sometimes change when circumstances change.

 

[maxwel]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

Isaiah and Jonah were prophets.

Tourist claimed:
In Isa 38, Isaiah spoke “by the word of the Lord” (he prophesied) that Hezekiah was about to die. It did not happen. Instead, Hezekiah prayed, and God gave him 15 more years.

In Jonah 3:4, Jonah prophesied that Nineveh was about to be overthrown. It did not happen. Instead, Nineveh repented.

The point is that prophesies can sometimes change when circumstances change.

"The point is that prophesies can sometimes change when circumstances change"
No.
One specific type of prophecy can change, in one specific way, and then only for a while.



For all the people claiming to be prophets, who think it's alright if their prophecies fail, because they can use these passages as an excuse... think again.




Here We Go:


These passages show:
a. ONLY ONE VERY PARTICULAR TYPE of PROPHECY
b. which can change in ONLY ONE VERY PARTICULAR TYPE OF CIRCUMSTANCE
c. and which only receive a SHORT REPRIEVE BEFORE AN EVEN WORSE JUDGEMENT FALLS.
(As God apparently knew, before prophesying judgement, that even if he gave them mercy they would STILL fall away and require judgement... therefore, his judgement still comes, but it gets a temporary reprieve.)


The Breakdown:
A. The ONE PARTICULAR TYPE of PROPHECY = Prophecy of Judgement
B. The ONE PARTICULAR CIRCUMSTANCE ALLOWING CHANGE = Genuine Repentance of People Being Judged
C. The ultimate outcome = they end up with a WORSE JUDGEMENT, because God shows them mercy, and they fail to obey God and fall back into sin... so they ultimately end up with nothing more than a "short reprieve".


These passage about Jonah and Hezekiah show clearly that God only prophecies judgement on those who ARE GOING TO RECEIVE JUDGEMENT...
but in his mercy he may allow them to repent, and receive a reprieve...
even knowing they will only fall back into sin and require the judgement later.


Okay all you prophets, this seems to be the pattern for change:
- Things can only change if the prophet is prophesying JUDGEMENT
- Things can only change if the people being judged SINCERELY REPENT
- The people repenting will eventually fall away from God, and will eventually receive an even WORSE JUDGEMENT,
because God never would have prophesied judgement in the first place if knew the people would ever really listen to him.




Conclusion - Let's Remember the TEST & JUDGEMENT of False Prophets

The TEST of False Prophets:
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

God's Judgement on the False Prophets:
Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

 

[Depleted]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

Lynn, honestly… you really think it's all urban myths? living in the last days and all? aren't you reading your Bible? im shocked! so, all of this end-time business is science-fiction? i had no idea!

Yeah. I'm reading my Bible. Your listening to crappy teachers and don't even check out what they're saying.

 

[Adstar]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

Isaiah and Jonah were prophets.

Tourist claimed:
In Isa 38, Isaiah spoke “by the word of the Lord” (he prophesied) that Hezekiah was about to die. It did not happen. Instead, Hezekiah prayed, and God gave him 15 more years.

In Jonah 3:4, Jonah prophesied that Nineveh was about to be overthrown. It did not happen. Instead, Nineveh repented.

The point is that prophesies can sometimes change when circumstances change.

In both these cases the LORD responded to the repentance of the ones the prophecies where directed at.. Jonah and Isiah cannot be called false prophets because God showed mercy to the ones who repented after receiving the prophecies..

 

[notuptome]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

That's right. He was wrong. God tried to warn him numerous times not to go to Jerusalem.

He went anyway.

No Paul was faithful to his calling to go and declare the gospel. Paul did not fear authorities because he knew it was determined by God to use it for good.

I believe Eph 4:11 is true.

I believe it is true as well but I find your application to be in error.

Prophesy sometimes does.

Please read this and explain how Isaiah's prophesy to Hezekiah did not change.

Isa 38:
1) In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.

2) Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed unto the LORD,

3) And said, Remember now, O LORD, I beseech thee, how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

4) Then came the word of the LORD to Isaiah, saying,

5) Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.

The prophecy did not change only the timeline and how it was fulfilled was changed. Nineveh was destroyed after a space of time. Hezekiah was given a reprieve but Gods judgment was only stayed for a time it was executed later.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[LightShinesInTheDarkness]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

People are either Christians or they are not Christians.. You cannot call people saved people when they are in apostasy.. If a person is in apostasy they are not saved... And again the true Church which is the body of Christ Cannot be in Apostasy.. You can say many had been deceived already and had fallen away to that when Constantine claimed his false vision he enticed them into deeper apostasy.. But you cannot say the true church was never deceived and was in apostasy..




False doctrines do not flourish within true Christianity.. Once a group of Christians adopt a doctrine of demons they have left Christianity in spirit and no matter what Identifiers they have on their Church building or what they personally claim to be they are not Christians anymore..




What actions ?

I believe people fall away primarily by the change in their beliefs from a position of believing the teachings of Jesus and no longer trusting 100% in the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ that secured their salvation.




Well i agree with that... But that is a choice to do primarily with a choice as to what one believes..




Well i agree people can cease to believe Jesus and cease to trust 100% in the Atonement he secured for their salvation..




Once again a True Christian is a true Christian and cannot be both true and in a state of rebellion against God.. Once a person enters into rebellion against the Gospel of God they are already lost.... They have already ceased to be true Christians..




I believe true Christians who are indwelled by Gods Holy Spirit, who embrace the teachings of Jesus and the Atonement He secured for them will be guarded from the final great deception ( i believe that will be the anti-christ claiming to be the returned Jesus and performing lying signs and wonders to fool the unsaved into believing it )




Agreed..

I maintain my original statements, but would like to add that what makes one a Christian or not is whether he or she has the Holy Spirit living in him or her or not, NOT whether he or she is obeying the Lord as he or she ought to be. True Christians can and do sin, whether in thought, deed, or attitude. True Christians can and do rebel.

God chastens His disobedient children (not unsaved people). If Christians couldn't be disobedient, there would be no need for God to chasten them (Hebrews 12:5-10), or for them to confess their sins (1 John 1:9). Christians do not cease to be Christians when they sin, and become Christians again when they obey: If the Spirit of Jesus is in them, they are still Christians, however disobedient they may be.

The 5 churches in Asia province that Jesus rebuked were Christians who were in varying degrees of apostasy, not unsaved people. His warning to those Christians was that He was either going to chasten them, in some cases, or, in other cases, that they were about to forfeit their salvation. While there may have been unsaved people in those churches, the Lord's rebukes were to the Christians. They were disobedient Christians, but they were still Christians. They needed to repent of their apostasy, not get saved. The Laodiceans may have been wretched, but they were still in Christ (though in danger of being vomited OUT of Him if they didn't repent.)

"Those whom I love I reprove and discipline (That's Christians; God chastens His own.) so be zealous and repent." (Revelation 3:19)

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." (Revelation 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22) The Holy Spirit speaks to those who have Him. These messages are directed to people who have the Spirit of God in them (Christians), not people who do not.

True Christians still have the sinful nature to contend with until they leave this world, and must choose between themselves and the desires of that sinful nature, and the will of the Lord and the desires of the Holy Spirit, daily.

If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. (Galatians 5:25)

But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires. (Romans 13:14)

Those are choices. The fact that we can and should do this does not necessarily mean we will choose to, or that we will do so perfectly.

There is no sinless perfection in this life, but the more spiritually mature and committed to Christ a Christian is, the less he or she will sin.

Not being apostate does not mean being sinless. It just means doing everything the Lord commands and desires you to do, to the best of the knowledge you have been given, faithfully. And when you sin, you repent of it and keep going forward.

 

[Adstar]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

LightShinesInTheDarkness::
I maintain my original statements, but would like to add that what makes one a Christian or not is whether he or she has the Holy Spirit living in him or her or not, NOT whether he or she is obeying the Lord as he or she ought to be. True Christians can and do sin, whether in thought, deed, or attitude. True Christians can and do rebel.

True Christians do sin.. But sinning is not rebellion unless it is wilful sin.. We all sin but true Christians never seek to justify their sinning or declare their sins to be anything else but transgressions against the will of God.. People who seek to justify their sins are rejecting the Word of God.. So if Jesus says love your enemy and turn your cheek a true Christian might lash out against someone who has slapped them in a burst of anger and break their enemies jaw.. But they will not then go on to declare they where justified and what they did was right and good.. They will acknowledge they have sinned against the LORD as David did in the OT when he was confronted with his sin with Bathsheba and her husband..

God chastens His disobedient children (not unsaved people). If Christians couldn't be disobedient, there would be no need for God to chasten them (Hebrews 12:5-10), or for them to confess their sins (1 John 1:9). Christians do not cease to be Christians when they sin, and become Christians again when they obey: If the Spirit of Jesus is in them, they are still Christians, however disobedient they may be.

The chastisement of God does not lead to us becoming sinless in this life.. It does however improve our performance in sin avoidance to a degree.. But again you seem to see sin as rebellion in itself.. while i see willful sin as true rebellion in the spirit.. Once a persons sins become willful sinning then they are no longer acknowledging or believing their sins are sins... Being willful means to have an in your face attitude against the will of God..

Been good discussing these things with you LightShinesInTheDarkness i have watched a few of your video's also..

 

[shrume]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

No Paul was faithful to his calling to go and declare the gospel. Paul did not fear authorities because he knew it was determined by God to use it for good.

It was not the will of God for Paul to go to Jerusalem. God told Paul himself, he spoke through Agabus the prophet, the four daughters of Philip, and the disciples at Tyre.

I believe it is true as well but I find your application to be in error.

You are free to have your opinion.

The prophecy did not change only the timeline and how it was fulfilled was changed. Nineveh was destroyed after a space of time. Hezekiah was given a reprieve but Gods judgment was only stayed for a time it was executed later.

The prophesies of Isaiah and Jonah did change.

God responds to what people do. At times this means prophesies can and do change.

 

[MichaelOwen]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

It was not the will of God for Paul to go to Jerusalem. God told Paul himself, he spoke through Agabus the prophet, the four daughters of Philip, and the disciples at Tyre.


You are free to have your opinion.


The prophesies of Isaiah and Jonah did change.

God responds to what people do. At times this means prophesies can and do change.

Prophecies may change.....however....our Lord does not.....bear that in mind. Malachi 3:6, "I am the Lord; I change not."

 

[LightShinesInTheDarkness]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

It does not have to. Since they are TWO WITNESSES FOR GOD AND CHRIST, can you imagine them not preaching the Gospel at that time? Just because the Bible does not state things explicitly does not mean that they are false.

What did Jesus tell His apostles when He said that they would be witnesses unto Him? Did He not tell them to preach the Gospel to every creature? And does not the flying angel in Revelation 14 preach the EVERLASTING GOSPEL. One would think that Christians -- of all people -- should be able to connect the dots.

Once the full number of God's elect among the Gentiles has come in (been saved), and His last days remnant elect among the Jews (the 144,000) are saved---which will be shortly before the judgments of God begin to fall and the tribulation starts---there won't be anyone left to be saved. (See Romans 11:25, 9:6-8)

So that angel who is dispatched from heaven to preach the gospel to the world during the tribulation will be doing so because it is God's will for all creation to hear it, as a matter of His justice (even though not all men can receive it), and as a second fulfillment of what Jesus said about the gospel of the kingdom being preached to the whole world before the end comes (Matthew 24:14); the first fulfillment of this having already been accomplished by His apostles (Colossians 1:23), just as He told them to do (Mark 16:15).

No one will get saved on account of the message of the angel, because everyone who is appointed to receive Jesus Christ, whether Gentile or Jew, will be sealed (saved) BEFORE the judgments of God begin to be poured out on the earth. The tribulation years will not be a time of people getting saved, or of evangelism, but of the testing of those who are already saved, and the judgment of those who are not.

The 144,000 Jews will be the last people to get saved. And they will not be saved until the last of the Gentiles is saved. That leaves no one left to be saved.

Everyone will be in the ark before the floodwaters come on the earth (whether they choose to remain in the ark or not.) When the judgments of God start to fall, we can know for sure that there is no one left to be saved, because the 144,000 will be saved before the judgments begin to fall, and the 144,000 will not be saved until all of God's elect among the Gentiles have been saved.

(The 144,000 are not the only elect among the Jews: The Jewish people have been partially hardened, not completely. Obviously there have been Jews getting saved up to now as there have been Gentiles getting saved. But this specific number have been kept for salvation in the last days.)

God has decided and chosen from eternity who will and won't get saved. Jesus has lost sheep and all of them will be found (saved). But not all unsaved people are lost sheep, only those appointed to be saved. The non-elect are goats and children of the devil. They are not appointed to be saved, even though they are commanded to repent and be saved (Acts 17:30), and even though God wants all men to be saved. (Just because God wants them to be doesn't mean they want to be. If God never gives them the desire to be saved, they will never want to be.)

Yes, man has free will; but his free will operates within God's sovereign will, just like the laws of nature. Everything is subject to God's will and nothing can operate outside of it. A man whom God has not chosen to be saved cannot choose God and will never have any desire to. Who will and who won't be has been decided by God from eternity and cannot be changed; but only God knows who is His.

We don't have to understand this or like this, but that is God's plan and we have no right to find fault with Him for doing things the way He sees fit to do them. It is His creation and His plan, not ours, and His ways are higher than ours. (See Romans 9:10-24)

So, even if those two witnesses did preach the gospel (and again, the Bible does not say that they do, only that they prophesy and strike the earth with plagues), nobody would get saved on account of their message, because there will be no one left to be saved at the time of their preaching.

(Why does any of this matter? Because it pertains to the correct understanding of end-times prophecy, which is the only reason I addressed it. As I have said before, I do not teach doctrine, but rather explain prophecy. But it would be pretty impossible to elucidate end-times prophecy, for the benefit and preparation of the saints for the time ahead, without explaining or referencing the relevant scriptures. And one thing relates to another as far as the Scriptures go. Strength against deception lies in correct understanding.)

 

[Gracie_14]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

Yeah. I'm reading my Bible. Your listening to crappy teachers and don't even check out what they're saying.

oh really? you're just being brainwashed to believe that all this is nonsense coming out of some crazy religious fanatics. i know who i listen to. and btw, i dont watch tv preachers that much (as you may do) i just pay attention to the Word and what God says. and it sems you're not reading the Bible the way you should. pity you…

 

[notuptome]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

It was not the will of God for Paul to go to Jerusalem. God told Paul himself, he spoke through Agabus the prophet, the four daughters of Philip, and the disciples at Tyre.

LOL

You are free to have your opinion.

In your mind it is OK for prophecy to change but God is not allowed to show that He is God.

The prophesies of Isaiah and Jonah did change.

God responds to what people do. At times this means prophesies can and do change.

Only to correct your understanding of the intent of the prophecy. God was not taken by surprise no did He need to amend His plan to accomplish His will.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

Prophesy does not change, If it does, it hurts the reasoning behind prophesy (to prove the god of heaven is the one true God who can predict without error the future

Judgment however, is a different story, God can say, I will do this,, he can also relent

God repented he made man, The flood was the result

God repented of his JUDGMENT on ninevah, because they repented.

Saying, I will punish you is not prophesy, it is a statement of judgment, which time and time again, God has held back when man has repented. it is his character and his practice and he has always been this way.

That is not however, God changing prophesy.

 

[shrume]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

Prophesy does not change, If it does, it hurts the reasoning behind prophesy (to prove the god of heaven is the one true God who can predict without error the future

Judgment however, is a different story, God can say, I will do this,, he can also relent

God repented he made man, The flood was the result

God repented of his JUDGMENT on ninevah, because they repented.

Saying, I will punish you is not prophesy, it is a statement of judgment, which time and time again, God has held back when man has repented. it is his character and his practice and he has always been this way.

That is not however, God changing prophesy.

So when prophets prophesied judgment, it wasn't prophecy?

 

[shrume]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

It was not the will of God for Paul to go to Jerusalem. God told Paul himself, he spoke through Agabus the prophet, the four daughters of Philip, and the disciples at Tyre.

LOL

Not very convincing, Roger.

In your mind it is OK for prophecy to change but God is not allowed to show that He is God.

What does this mean?

Only to correct your understanding of the intent of the prophecy. God was not taken by surprise no did He need to amend His plan to accomplish His will.

What does this mean?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

So when prophets prophesied judgment, it wasn't prophecy?

Everyone will be judged.

And if you look at it, Judgment did come, in all cases, Even Isreal was judged just as God said they would be.

 

[shrume]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

Here are a couple more examples of prophecy changing:

Nathan was a true prophet of God and prophesied that David would have peace in his kingdom (2 Sam. 7:11). But then David sinned by having Uriah killed and committing adultery with Bathsheba, so the prophecy changed, “Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house” (2 Sam. 12:10).

Nathan also told Solomon that God would establish his kingdom (2 Sam. 7:12). But when Solomon turned from God that prophecy was nullified, and God said He would tear the kingdom away from Solomon (1 Kings 11:11).

 

[tourist]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

Here are a couple more examples of prophecy changing:

Nathan was a true prophet of God and prophesied that David would have peace in his kingdom (2 Sam. 7:11). But then David sinned by having Uriah killed and committing adultery with Bathsheba, so the prophecy changed, “Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house” (2 Sam. 12:10).

Nathan also told Solomon that God would establish his kingdom (2 Sam. 7:12). But when Solomon turned from God that prophecy was nullified, and God said He would tear the kingdom away from Solomon (1 Kings 11:11).

These prophecies will be fulfilled in the future. God may relent of what He might do but one thing that He will not do is change prophecy.

 

[NayborBear]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

Prophesy does not change, If it does, it hurts the reasoning behind prophesy (to prove the god of heaven is the one true God who can predict without error the future

Judgment however, is a different story, God can say, I will do this,, he can also relent

God repented he made man, The flood was the result

God repented of his JUDGMENT on ninevah, because they repented.

Saying, I will punish you is not prophesy, it is a statement of judgment, which time and time again, God has held back when man has repented. it is his character and his practice and he has always been this way.

That is not however, God changing prophesy.

Don't believe anyone is talking about Judgement, "Straw-Man!"

 

[shrume]

Re: WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF THE "REBELLION"/''FALLING AWAY" OF THE LAST DAYS

These prophecies will be fulfilled in the future. God may relent of what He might do but one thing that He will not do is change prophecy.

But He did, several times.

Isn't "relenting of what He might do" changing prophesy?

You guys are avoiding the obvious.

There are some prophesies that are absolute, and shall come to pass. One example:

Acts 1:
11) Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

That absolutely will happen.

But many prophesies are conditional, and they can and do change. Some examples are given above.