There was death before sin.

[KelbyofGod]

A DISCLAIMER (of sorts): First, most of this is a reprint of something I'd posted in another thread. Second, I'd been praying about another topic and this idea was part of the answer to that other question. I'm sharing it because Jesus said "What you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops". Just this one little piece kind of rocked my world. Let me know what you think. And as always...Love in Jesus to you. -Kelby


Before presenting any proof that death was active before sin, I first ask you to consider... "Do you think death is different, or the same, for people vs. animals vs. plants?". (Please decide on your current answer before continuing... Thanks)

If death is death, no matter whether it is a plant , animal, or human body… then proving it in one proves it in the all the others. If death is different in each grouping, then it can still be proven that death was active (at least in one group) prior to sin.


The proof is in Genesis 1 (which is prior to even the mention of the tree of knowledge of good and evil).


Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.


Did you see it? (I posted it in context and am providing this interruption for those who want to find it before it is explained. ... You're welcome )



It’s in verses 29 and 30. God gave every herb as meat for man (and beast).


Have you ever eaten (or watched someone eat) a small onion or a bean sprout? Probably.
Have you ever eaten that same small onion or bean sprout without killing it? No.


That is death built right into the creation/life structure and put there by God’s own mouth, as part of a sinless system.


And if you need another example, or don’t believe that “death” is applicable to plants, consider what Jesus said….

John_12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.


Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[88]

A DISCLAIMER (of sorts): First, most of this is a reprint of something I'd posted in another thread. Second, I'd been praying about another topic and this idea was part of the answer to that other question. I'm sharing it because Jesus said "What you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops". Just this one little piece kind of rocked my world. Let me know what you think. And as always...Love in Jesus to you. -Kelby


Before presenting any proof that death was active before sin, I first ask you to consider... "Do you think death is different, or the same, for people vs. animals vs. plants?". (Please decide on your current answer before continuing... Thanks)

If death is death, no matter whether it is a plant , animal, or human body… then proving it in one proves it in the all the others. If death is different in each grouping, then it can still be proven that death was active (at least in one group) prior to sin.


The proof is in Genesis 1 (which is prior to even the mention of the tree of knowledge of good and evil).


Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.


Did you see it? (I posted it in context and am providing this interruption for those who want to find it before it is explained. ... You're welcome )



It’s in verses 29 and 30. God gave every herb as meat for man (and beast).


Have you ever eaten (or watched someone eat) a small onion or a bean sprout? Probably.
Have you ever eaten that same small onion or bean sprout without killing it? No.


That is death built right into the creation/life structure and put there by God’s own mouth, as part of a sinless system.


And if you need another example, or don’t believe that “death” is applicable to plants, consider what Jesus said….

John_12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.


Love in Jesus,
Kelby

***You have asked an interesting question-----this article may help...
[h=3]Did Plants Die Before Adam Sinned? | Creation Today[/h]

 

[Zmouth]

It’s in verses 29 and 30. God gave every herb as meat for man (and beast).

Man was given herb bearing seed for meat. Seed (GRAIN) (Vitamins)
just like man was given every tree in the which was the fruit of a tree bearing seed. Seed (NUT) protein

But don't listen to me cause I am insane in the membrane

 

[Zmouth]

What about the catepillar, didn't it's flesh have to perish before the light emerged into the butterfly?

 

[KelbyofGod]

***You have asked an interesting question-----this article may help...
Did Plants Die Before Adam Sinned? | Creation Today

It wasn't a question, but I appreciate the reply and article. The writer is clarifying a differing kind of death for plants, but I don't feel the article diminishes the fact that Jesus himself states that seeds actually DIE as a manifestation of the creation...(established by God, and not because of sin).

However, I do actually have a question to ask. Why is it important to you to believe that God could not have set up a system that includes beginnings and an endings without sin? (Especially when the death is for the specific purpose of becoming MORE fruitful, not less.) <-- I don't think that's just a rhetorical question. I'd actually like to know the answer.

For a long time my own answer would have been "Because it doesn't agree with what I already believe to be true". (or ...what I was told, or ...the doctrine i follow).


Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[posthuman]

"unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground .. "​

 

[posthuman]

But don't listen to me cause I am insane in the membrane

insane in the brain?

 

[OneFaith]

You’re right, plants die, definitely when we consume them. And I don’t know how long Adam and Eve roamed the earth before they sinned, but I think it is most likely that they ate the allowed fruit before they ate the forbidden fruit. Therefore a growing fruit that grew on a tree died when they picked and ate it. This is more proof that God, Who knows all, knew we would sin before He created us- otherwise He would have created us in heaven with Him so that there would be no death of plants, animals, or humans.

Nice work. Someone has their thinking cap on this morning.

 

[notuptome]

Only one big problem. You are viewing nature from the perspective of what you see after the fall and not before. We have no hard facts on which to base these speculations. What Adam actually ate and whether it required the death of the plant is not revealed in the scripture. Eating fruit from the tree does not result in the tree's death.

You can only speculate that Adam was required to eat to sustain his body.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[louis]

Did Adam physically die the day he ate the forbidden fruit (Genesis 2:17)?
According to the Word, Adam continued on living for several hundred more years following his disobediance.
Assuming therefore God is correct, and that Adam did die the day he ate the forbidden fruit, this death would then have been other than a physical death.
Adam's experienced a spiritual death; as we all do.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

oh let's all just get philosophical about this...

really, on a much bigger and grander scale, I think we could say the plants lived on in whoever ate them

and in fact served a bigger purpose

oh yeah

 

[garee]

Only one big problem. You are viewing nature from the perspective of what you see after the fall and not before. We have no hard facts on which to base these speculations. What Adam actually ate and whether it required the death of the plant is not revealed in the scripture. Eating fruit from the tree does not result in the tree's death.

You can only speculate that Adam was required to eat to sustain his body.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Good point. Bearing fruit means giving life. Not dying.

But what kind of food did the one tree in the center of the garden, the tree of life that bears the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil before God corrupted both it and its eater?

1Corinthians 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

Will we have a belly as a new creation?

What kind of body did man have before the fall. Did he have a belly needed to digest this corrupted fruit? Was their human waste as draught as a sign of corruption?

Mar 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

Or its a witness mankind is defiled by reason of Him who corrupted it as the wrath of God reveled from heaven?

Did the serpent who the father of lies spoke through have a belly before God corrupted it?

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

 

[garee]

Did Adam physically die the day he ate the forbidden fruit (Genesis 2:17)?
According to the Word, Adam continued on living for several hundred more years following his disobediance.
Assuming therefore God is correct, and that Adam did die the day he ate the forbidden fruit, this death would then have been other than a physical death.
Adam's experienced a spiritual death; as we all do.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

He says on the day you eat.... in effect your'e dead. The death of the soul, the loss of communication with God in man not seen is quick, in the twinkling of the eye . No sooner then Eve reached out her hand in expectation the soul of mankind died.

Corruption is a slow death (aprox 80 according to the Psalms ) . Christ gave his Spirit life for the second death, the death of a corrupted spirit.

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

He as promised poured out His Spirit on corrupted flesh typified as sinful. Christians as new creatures having passed from death to life we are given His understanding that our new born again spirit and new heart will be raised on the last day and will receive of new incorruptible bodies that will never die or grow old as a sign of corruption.

 

[WebersHome]

-
● Gen 2:8 . . And the Lord God planted a garden

The Hebrew word for "garden" is gan (gan) which indicates a garden that's
fenced; i.e. a walled enclosure; which I would assume was intended to
control damage by foraging animals.

● Gen 2:9 . . Out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that
is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst
of the garden

As far as I can tell, the tree of life existed nowhere else on Earth except
Adam's garden, which suggests to me that it was intended exclusively for
human consumption.

● Gen 2:16-17 . . And the Lord God commanded the man, saying: Of every
tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge
of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest
thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam didn't drop dead the instant he tasted the forbidden fruit. In point of
fact, he continued to live outside the garden of Eden for another 800 years
after the birth of his son Seth (Gen 5:4). So; is there a reasonable
explanation for this apparent discrepancy?

Well; first off let me point out that in order for the consequence to resonate
in Adam's thinking; it had to be related to death as Adam understood it. In
other words: Adam wasn't threatened to die spiritually. No, he was
threatened to die normally; i.e. physically; like as in pass away.

How can I be so sure that God meant normal death? Because according to
Gen 3:19 that's how it worked out; and to make sure Adam would die, God
blocked his access to the tree of life. (Gen 3:22-24)

Anyway; the trick is: Adam wasn't told he would die the instant he tasted
the fruit. God's exact words were "in the day"

Well; according to Gen 2:4, the Hebrew word for "day" is a bit ambiguous. It
can easily indicate a period of time much, much longer than 24 hours; i.e.
the day of Adam's death began the moment he ate the fruit.

That was a milestone in human history. Up till Adam tasted the fruit, the
only significant day on record was the creation era. Adam inaugurated a new
day by tasting the fruit-- the day of death.

● Rom 5:12 . . Sin entered the world through one man, and death through
sin, and in this way death came to all men.

Well; like Jack Palance's character Curly in the movie City Slickers said: "The
day ain't over yet"

● Ecc 7:2 . . It is better to go to a house of mourning than to go to a house
of gaiety, for death is the destiny of every man; the living should take this
seriously.

Q: If Adam is responsible for bringing death into the world, then how did he
know what it meant to die if nothing had done so up to that point?

A: Well; as far as I can tell from the Bible, humanity is the only species that
God created with the potential for immortality; viz: the other creatures--
e.g. birds, beasts, and bugs --died all around Adam all the time so that
"death" wasn't a strange new word in his vocabulary.

/

 

[Nehemiah6]

[h=2]

There was death before sin.

[/h]That should say "There was NO death before sin". Death is the consequence of sin, and we know why death entered into the world (Rom 5:12).

 

[KelbyofGod]

That should say "There was NO death before sin". Death is the consequence of sin, and we know why death entered into the world (Rom 5:12).

Nehemiah6,

My original statement was accurate.

If you'd like to say death to HUMANS was initiated by sin, that would be more reasonable. But death in PLANTS was initiated by God in at least 2 ways. 1) the death of a seed as part of the process to become a plant. and 2) the death of whatever is eaten. Neither of those deaths are caused as a result of sin. Sin neither started nor stopped those processes.

I'll add this last part because I believe you might be able to see it. In Romans 5:12, he says that by one man SIN (not death) entered the world (then he adds) "and death by sin". Are you able to fathom that sin might be only ONE cause of death?

If you can at lease be open to the idea, then replacing one cause "Sin" with another cause "suicide", allows the structure of the sentence to make more sense (to us). for example... "By man suicide entered the world, and death by suicide" ...although the last part of the verse isn't applicable to suicide because suicide has NOT passed upon all men. Paul used that same stucture when differentiating between "sin caused by improper application of the commandment" as opposed to "sin caused by lawlessness";

Rom_7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin-by-the-commandment might become exceeding sinful. (hyphens mine, of course)

Again, if you're not open to the possibility of more than one reason for death (because it is foreign to our natural inclinations), then it would likely be unfruitful for me to explain further or give more examples. This is just another of those opportunities that passes nigh thee. (hoping you saw the message I left you on another thread)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[IamWhoIam]

[video=youtube;u0gEaDqoH58]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0gEaDqoH58[/video]

 

[Musicus]

Nehemiah6,

My original statement was accurate.

If you'd like to say death to HUMANS was initiated by sin, that would be more reasonable. But death in PLANTS was initiated by God in at least 2 ways. 1) the death of a seed as part of the process to become a plant. and 2) the death of whatever is eaten. Neither of those deaths are caused as a result of sin. Sin neither started nor stopped those processes.

I'll add this last part because I believe you might be able to see it. In Romans 5:12, he says that by one man SIN (not death) entered the world (then he adds) "and death by sin". Are you able to fathom that sin might be only ONE cause of death?

If you can at lease be open to the idea, then replacing one cause "Sin" with another cause "suicide", allows the structure of the sentence to make more sense (to us). for example... "By man suicide entered the world, and death by suicide" ...although the last part of the verse isn't applicable to suicide because suicide has NOT passed upon all men. Paul used that same stucture when differentiating between "sin caused by improper application of the commandment" as opposed to "sin caused by lawlessness";

Rom_7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin-by-the-commandment might become exceeding sinful. (hyphens mine, of course)

Again, if you're not open to the possibility of more than one reason for death (because it is foreign to our natural inclinations), then it would likely be unfruitful for me to explain further or give more examples. This is just another of those opportunities that passes nigh thee. (hoping you saw the message I left you on another thread)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I'm following this ok I guess, but I'm not sure I understand the suicide part. I did get something else out of this thread so far that's kinda puzzled me. That is, why was Abel's offering acceptable and pleasing to God and Cain's was not, both being "first fruits"? That the one was plants that have no blood makes more sense to me now. It was the blood that made the difference.

 

[IamWhoIam]

I'm following this ok I guess, but I'm not sure I understand the suicide part. I did get something else out of this thread so far that's kinda puzzled me. That is, why was Abel's offering acceptable and pleasing to God and Cain's was not, both being "first fruits"? That the one was plants that have no blood makes more sense to me now. It was the blood that made the difference.

Actually it was by Abel's faith, the offering of Cain's was by sight.

 

[Musicus]

I pondered the plant-death v animal-death v human-death, and I don't believe they are the same, simply because they are 3 different kinds of life. Plants are physically alive but don't have a consciousness or a soul. Animals (non-human) have consciousness but no soul. Humans have both. I may not have this exactly correct, but I think my point is still fair. So as I see it there is really more than one form of death.