predestination?

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hannahcorn

Guest
#1
Hi all! So i go to a private school, and in my Bible class one day, we somehow got into discussing predestination. I wasn't completely following along with what my Bible teacher was saying, but i was too afraid to ask about it since i didn't want to get in trouble....stupid choice, i know. But what he was saying was that Jesus said he "chooses" people to spend eternity with him, and that's not what i believed growing up. I always thought that it was up to you to decide for yourself whether you are a true believer or not and your true salvation. He went on to say that Jesus died on the cross for the lost, NOT for everyone. But isn't it ANYONE who seeks him? I just wanted to get all of you guys' thoughts and this, and I'll be sure to ask next time, haha. Plus I'm so scared of him, he is mean for a bible teacher...he's even been fired before. Hopefully some of you can explain this to me a little better, thanks!
 
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Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
749
186
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#2
hannahcorn;

Hello Hanna,

But what he was saying was that Jesus said he "chooses" people to spend eternity with him,
The Father has chosen a multitude of sinners that He has given to Jesus to save. Jesus as the Good Shepherd seeks and saves all the Father has given Him....
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost



9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;
10 Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

and that's not what i believed growing up
we are all still learning

. I always thought that it was up to you to decide for yourself whether you are a true believer or not and your true salvation.
This is not found in the bible...it is up to God.



He went on to say that Jesus died on the cross for the lost, NOT for everyone.
Jesus died for every single person who He saves. There will not be anyone in hell who Jesus died for.

But isn't it ANYONE who seeks him?
[FONT=&quot]10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.[/FONT]
 
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hannahcorn

Guest
#3
hannahcorn;

Hello Hanna,



The Father has chosen a multitude of sinners that He has given to Jesus to save. Jesus as the Good Shepherd seeks and saves all the Father has given Him....
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost



9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord;
10 Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.
11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

and that's not what i believed growing up. I always thought that it was up to you to decide for yourself whether you are a true believer or not and your true salvation. He went on to say that Jesus died on the cross for the lost, NOT for everyone. But isn't it ANYONE who seeks him? I just wanted to get all of you guys' thoughts and this, and I'll be sure to ask next time, haha. Plus I'm so scared of him, he is mean for a bible teacher...he's even been fired before. Hopefully some of you can explain this to me a little better, thanks!
[/QUOTE]

So, now i know that scripture says it however i'm still confused. Does this mean when God creates some people he creates them to go to hell and creates others to go to heaven? Why can't everyone be his sheep?
 
U

Ugly

Guest
#4
I stick with John 3:16.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,273
1,410
113
#5
Knowingly or unknowingly you have stepped into one of the hotbeds of controversy in the Christian church! LOL!

The issue is the sovereignty of God and the free will of man.

On this forum some emphasize the sovereignty of God - Calvinism - God does all the choosing
Others emphasize the free will of man - Arminianism - man does all the choosing and the work

And then there are a few of us who believe in both the sovereignty of God and the free will of man - Biblicism

LOL! :) :)

Here is my advice, Hannah, -- Don't let the controversy draw you aside from the core of the issue: Find Jesus Christ, believe in Him and His death and resurrection, and live a life of obedience and victory in the power of the Spirit!
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
749
186
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#6
Hello Hannah

So, now i know that scripture says it however i'm still confused. Does this mean when God creates some people he creates them to go to hell and creates others to go to heaven?
God made everything very Good

gen 1:31
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Why can't everyone be his sheep?
The Father ,Son, and Spirit, have perfect wisdom and love, Holiness and justice in all things....
They have a perfect plan to save all the can wisely save...not one more, or less....
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree

1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )

7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#7
How can one argue with predestination?

[video=youtube;9UaJAnnipkY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UaJAnnipkY[/video]
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
4,273
1,410
113
#8
How can one argue with predestination?

[video=youtube;9UaJAnnipkY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UaJAnnipkY[/video]
If being "born to be alive" means to act the way the guys on the video act - well - I will just skip it! LOL!
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#9
Hi all! So i go to a private school, and in my Bible class one day, we somehow got into discussing predestination. I wasn't completely following along with what my Bible teacher was saying, but i was too afraid to ask about it since i didn't want to get in trouble....stupid choice, i know. But what he was saying was that Jesus said he "chooses" people to spend eternity with him, and that's not what i believed growing up. I always thought that it was up to you to decide for yourself whether you are a true believer or not and your true salvation. He went on to say that Jesus died on the cross for the lost, NOT for everyone. But isn't it ANYONE who seeks him? I just wanted to get all of you guys' thoughts and this, and I'll be sure to ask next time, haha. Plus I'm so scared of him, he is mean for a bible teacher...he's even been fired before. Hopefully some of you can explain this to me a little better, thanks!
As Chester noted, this is an argument that has raged for centuries. Your teacher apparently subscribes to Calvinism, that God is the one who chooses, and man is incapable of deciding to believe on his own. There are several on this forum who believe Calvinism is true (note the people who "liked" Iconoclast's post) and several, myself included, who believe Calvinism is a false doctrine.

I believe that God gave man free will, and that God want's all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), that He is not willing that any should perish but all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9), and that He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they might live (Eze 33:11).

Jesus Christ died for all men, and anyone can freely choose to believe on him, and become saved.

Also, you commented that your teacher was mean. This is only my observation, but I have noticed that it is not uncommon for Calvinists to be mean, especially if you disagree with them. Not all of them, but some surely are. Read some of the ongoing discussions on this forum about the topic, and maybe you'll see what I mean.
 
Sep 6, 2017
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#10
If being "born to be alive" means to act the way the guys on the video act - well - I will just skip it! LOL!
hahaha you probably wasn't a easy rider fan either, lol

[video=youtube;rMbATaj7Il8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMbATaj7Il8[/video]
 

mcubed

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2013
1,449
218
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#12
I do not believe we have to be predestined to be saved. I suggest listen to Dr. Brown vs James White (they make fun of their names too) on youtube. They debate the topic.

My personal testimony: I think there is a balance somewhere between Calvinism and Arminianism, the two theories. This I know for sure for some strange reason G-d revealed Himself to me and I chose not to reject Him, back in Feb. 1991. Am I more "special" than my Jewish 6 sisters and brother; not I think not. We came from the same orthodox home. I honestly do not understand salvation. It is for ALL WHO-SO-EVER'S and G-d set up my salvation perfect to be one of those people. My first husband was murdered and Y-shua told me if I died tonight I would go to hell. I was afraid so I asked Him to save me. The I went to Bible college just to know what Christians know about Y-shua.

What it sounds like is your teacher is teaching Calvinism study both... Both are wrong... G-d has a balance we do not see and will LAUGH at us when we get to heaven and explain. But if you want to pass the exam get notes from a friend who payed attention. In Bible college I went to a college that believed you can lose your salvation. I wrote 4 pages why you cannot on the final exam and flunked. I was ok with it because I know I am right, but if you want to pass your class say the right thing, just know deep in your knowing the truth (to find it seek G-d not us people hell bent on a theory). Or be courageous and put on your test what G-d reveals to you; no matter what SEEK G-D!!!!!!
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
749
186
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#13
Notice Hanna,
Not one person who speaks of man having "free will"can produce a verse showing mans will is free at all...not one verse...because it is false.

One side is right....the other is wrong...you will see it if you study it out.
 
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Sep 6, 2017
1,331
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#14
Notice Hanna,
Not one person who speaks of man having "free will"can produce a verse showing mans will is free at all...not one verse...because it is false.
you seem to have free will to write what you did, or did God write that for you?
 
Sep 6, 2017
1,331
13
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#15
Does God choose what underwear people buy, the food you choose to eat, the house you live in, the car you drive.

free will is A ok, as long as we are not talking religion.
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
749
186
43
#16
mcubed

I do not believe we have to be predestined to be saved.
[FONT=&quot]29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/FONT]
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
749
186
43
#17
IamWhoIam;

Does God choose what underwear people buy, the food you choose to eat, the house you live in, the car you drive.
People make choices...that has nothing to do with the philosophical idea of free will.
free will is A ok, as long as we are not talking religion.
free will is a philosophical idea....not a biblical idea...men are self willed, bound by sin.
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
749
186
43
#18
IamWhoIam;

you seem to have free will to write what you did, or did God write that for you?
free will does not exist.....you are confusing choice, and doing things with the will.....you have no verse teaching free will as I said....

In heaven we will not be "free" to sin...
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,166
12,760
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#19
Plus I'm so scared of him, he is mean for a bible teacher...he's even been fired before. Hopefully some of you can explain this to me a little better, thanks!
1. First thing to do is get him fired again!

2. Next open your Bible and read it very carefully.

3. The whole human race is lost, therefore Christ died for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD. Focus on just these two verses, since these are the actual recorded words of the Lord Jesus Christ -- the one who died for your sins.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:16,17).

If anyone tells you that "the world" does not mean all the inhabitant of the earth, then tell them to stop contradicting the Savior.

4. God would be contradicting Himself and violating His own gracious provision in Christ if He would choose some for savlation and others for damnation. That is simply false teaching.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,166
12,760
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#20
Notice Hanna,
Not one person who speaks of man having "free will"can produce a verse showing mans will is free at all...not one verse...because it is false.
Not at all. Here is what the Lord Jesus Christ said (John 8:36):

King James Bible
If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

So ask yourself "How could anyone become free 'indeed', unless they had free will to believe what Jesus said, and then their will could be set free from sin and evil"?