---FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION---

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ARAD

Junior Member
Dec 2, 2017
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#1
Colossians 1:15
HE IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, THE FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION.

Many have gone back and forth with the position of Messiah's existence.

Some believe eve that He and the Father are one in singular form.

Some believe eve they are 2 complete separate deities.

Some believe they are one as a unit

i believe the creation of Eve gives us a beautiful picture of how Messiah came about.

Eve had had no earthly mother or father, she literally came from Adam.

I believe this picture shows us how Messiah came about. Not literally from the Father's ribs but that the Father took a piece of Himself and made His only begotten Son.
 
Jun 6, 2015
171
0
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#2
Colossians 1:15
HE IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, THE FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION.

Many have gone back and forth with the position of Messiah's existence.

Some believe eve that He and the Father are one in singular form.

Some believe eve they are 2 complete separate deities.

Some believe they are one as a unit

i believe the creation of Eve gives us a beautiful picture of how Messiah came about.

Eve had had no earthly mother or father, she literally came from Adam.

I believe this picture shows us how Messiah came about. Not literally from the Father's ribs but that the Father took a piece of Himself and made His only begotten Son.
We all have a flesh body and a celestial body and we all have a soul or spirit, when we are conceived God puts our soul in that body and when we grow up we are the image of our celestial body, when we die our soul returns to the Father Eccl.12:7, when God caused Mary to conceive he put his own spirit it her and when he grew up he was the image of the Father, he was God in the flesh, he was Emmanuel God with us, those who saw Jesus saw the father, he was created a little lower then the angels to suffer death on the cross. God bless
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,261
2,386
113
#3
Colossians 1:15
HE IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, THE FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION.

Many have gone back and forth with the position of Messiah's existence.

Some believe eve that He and the Father are one in singular form.

Some believe eve they are 2 complete separate deities.

Some believe they are one as a unit

i believe the creation of Eve gives us a beautiful picture of how Messiah came about.

Eve had had no earthly mother or father, she literally came from Adam.

I believe this picture shows us how Messiah came about. Not literally from the Father's ribs but that the Father took a piece of Himself and made His only begotten Son.



Christ was not a created being

This proposition you give would make Christ a created being:
who therefore was neither self-existent nor eternal...
therefore there would have been a time in the past when he did NOT exist.

Scripture teaches he IS God, he IS self existent, and he IS eternal.
Christ is not a created being.
There IS no time when he did not exist.



A Few Verses Showing Christ is God, and Christ is eternal

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
- This is Christ speaking of himself, calling himself the Alpha and Omega, and the Almighty... showing clearly he is God and he is eternal.

- Even the phrase "beginning and ending" shows his eternality, because if he is the beginning, there can be nothing before him... but if the Father "created" him, then the Father would have been BEFORE HIM, and so Christ could not have been the beginning of all things, because the Father would have been the beginning of all things.


Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Calling himself "I am" was a phrase known to denote the almighty eternal GOD.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Here Christ is called God, and called the everlasting Father - showing that he is both God, and that he is an eternal being.



There are many more verses showing Christ is God, and Christ is eternal.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#4
He has no beginning or end....

He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
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#6
I'm pretty sure that Paul is using firstborn in the same way as he does here:

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Therefore Christ is the firstborn of the many that come after him in being born sons of God through the gospel - this has nothing to do with Christ being created.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
586
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#7
Chapter 2 in This study deals with the Greek word “prototokos” (firstborn).
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#8
Christ isn't a created being.
True preacher! Very true! Yet? The H.R., and advertsing, and, the "marketing agencies", and probably a few more "offices", with "diminished" authority of the invisable GOD? ARE! Hence the "title" of Jehovah's Savior! Messiah! the Holy Anointed One of Israel!
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#9
Christ was not a created being

This proposition you give would make Christ a created being:
who therefore was neither self-existent nor eternal...
therefore there would have been a time in the past when he did NOT exist.

Scripture teaches he IS God, he IS self existent, and he IS eternal.
Christ is not a created being.
There IS no time when he did not exist.



A Few Verses Showing Christ is God, and Christ is eternal....

There are many more verses showing Christ is God, and Christ is eternal.
OK, what about that self-existence? Any Scriptures on that?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,764
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#10
OK, what about that self-existence? Any Scriptures on that?
God says that His name is "I AM THAT I AM" (or I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE) or simply "I AM". That settles the issue of self-existence. God simply exists. He has existed from eternity past and will continue unchanged to exist in eternity future. He needs no one else to maintain His existence, hence "I AM".

On the other hand everything in the universe needs God to continue its existence, and nothing come into being without God bringing it into existence.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#11
God says that His name is "I AM THAT I AM" (or I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE) or simply "I AM". That settles the issue of self-existence. God simply exists. He has existed from eternity past and will continue unchanged to exist in eternity future. He needs no one else to maintain His existence, hence "I AM".

On the other hand everything in the universe needs God to continue its existence, and nothing come into being without God bringing it into existence.
God is self-existent, but the Son is begotten of the Father. So I was asking about the self-existence of the Son.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,261
2,386
113
#12
OK, what about that self-existence? Any Scriptures on that?
Any verses that show eternality will also, by necessity, give intrinsic proof of self existence.

To be eternal by definition means to be uncreated, and to be uncreated means a thing's existence does not come from anything outside of itself, and if a thing's existence does not come from anything outside of itself then it's existence can only come from itself, and if it's existence comes from itself it is self existent.



There may be verses that more specifically speak to Christ's self existence, but as eternality must inherently contain the property of self existence, I didn't bother looking for more verses.
 
Last edited:
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
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#13
Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh.God reconciled the world unto Himself in the person of Jesus Christ,God and man in harmony.

God said is there a God beside Me,yea,there is no God,I know not any.

He also said that there was no God formed before Him,and there will not be a God formed after Him,and He is the only Savior.

The Bible says that the Son shall be called the mighty God,the everlasting Father,and when He comes shall be from everlasting,having no beginning.

Jesus is made after the order of Melchizedek forever,who was a visible manifestation of God,who was without decent having neither mother or father,having no beginning of days,and no end of life.

The Bible says that when the fulness of the time was come God sent forth His Son,made of a woman,made under the law,and He was made according to the flesh.

Jesus has no beginning,and was not created,according to Him being God,but having a beginning,and created,according to His humanity.

But the man Christ Jesus was not born until 4000 years after creation,and many people that lived before Him,so some might say how can He be the first born of all creation.

The Bible says that God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened,for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future,then it is the same as if it happened in the beginning for it will surely come to pass with no hindrance.

Which the Bible says the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world,although they were future events,and all the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

The Old Testament says that Adam was made in the image of God,and the New Testament says Adam was made in the image of Christ.

The image of God is the image of Christ,an innocent nature in flesh.

In the beginning was the Word,and the Word was with God,and the Word was God.
All things were made by Him,and without Him was not anything made that was made.

In the beginning was the plan of God to come in the future in flesh,and that plan was with God before He laid down the foundation of the world,and that plan was God manifest in the flesh.
All things were made with the plan of God to come in the flesh,and without that plan of God coming in flesh He would of not created anything that He created,for Jesus is why creation is successful for salvation.

All creation hinges on Jesus,and God had the plan to come in the future in flesh,the Word,before He created Adam,and created Adam in the image that He would appear in the future,an innocent nature in flesh,and God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened,which all the works were finished from the foundation of the world,and since God had the plan to appear in the future in flesh,before He created anything,and Jesus is the reason God created everything,for it makes creation successful,then Jesus is the firstborn of all creation.

Because God calls things that have not happened yet,as though they already happened,and all the works were finished from the foundation of the world,and God had the plan to come in the future in flesh before He created anything,so Jesus is the firstborn of all creation because He was the first plan,and action,that God had in His creation,and Jesus is the reason God created everything.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,764
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#14
God is self-existent, but the Son is begotten of the Father. So I was asking about the self-existence of the Son.
The one who is begotten of the Father also said that He is the I AM. Which means that the begetting within the Godhead was quite different from human begetting. The only begotten Son is the uniquely (monogenes) begotten Son, which indicates a unique Father-Son relationship within the Godhead, even though the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Thus God the Father is "the Head" (authority) over the Son. Human beings -- including Christians -- cannot (and should not try to) fathom the Mystery of God and the Mystery of the Godhead. We simply cannot "explain" how all of this is possible. Hence the necessity for faith.
 
Dec 14, 2017
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#15
Has anyone considered the possibility that Jesus TIME TRAVELED to eternity past?


New International Version
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
 
A

AuntieAnt

Guest
#16
Has anyone considered the possibility that Jesus TIME TRAVELED to eternity past?


New International Version
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
No, I have not considered that. Why would He need to? The Lord is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient.
 
Dec 14, 2017
408
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#17
No, I have not considered that. Why would He need to? The Lord is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient.

Think about the sequence of events! Was Jesus in His HUMAN body when He was slain? Was He crucified in Israel around 2,000 years ago, or was He crucified BEFORE the earth existed? If the latter, WHO was around to crucify Him?
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
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#18
It's probably to be understood as "foreordained before":

1 Pet 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1 Pet 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#19
Any verses that show eternality will also, by necessity, give intrinsic proof of self existence.

To be eternal by definition means to be uncreated, and to be uncreated means a thing's existence does not come from anything outside of itself, and if a thing's existence does not come from anything outside of itself then it's existence can only come from itself, and if it's existence comes from itself it is self existent.



There may be verses that more specifically speak to Christ's self existence, but as eternality must inherently contain the property of self existence, I didn't bother looking for more verses.
I am not sure if I understand you properly.

When somebody is not created from nothing, it does not mean He must be self-existent. For example:

"We believe ...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father."
Nicene Creed

"The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding."
Athanasian creed

If Jesus is from/of Father, how can He be self-existent? His existence does not come from himself.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#20
The one who is begotten of the Father also said that He is the I AM. Which means that the begetting within the Godhead was quite different from human begetting. The only begotten Son is the uniquely (monogenes) begotten Son, which indicates a unique Father-Son relationship within the Godhead, even though the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Thus God the Father is "the Head" (authority) over the Son. Human beings -- including Christians -- cannot (and should not try to) fathom the Mystery of God and the Mystery of the Godhead. We simply cannot "explain" how all of this is possible. Hence the necessity for faith.
I was asking about self-existence of Son. Every ancient christian creed confesses that Son is of Father. Fully God, eternally co-existent, but of Him.