the "rapture"

[zone]

{*note from zone:
i have never believed there will be ANY rapture other than the ressurection and change of our bodies, the living following the dead in Christ at His Second Coming.

i believe the Bible shows this clearly and the pretribulation "rapture" teaching Paul warned against in 2 Thessalonians 2 did indeed come to pass:

that false teaching, resulting in the worship of the devil instead of Christ IS THE LIE, and those who have not understood the sequence of events due to rejection of sound doctrine will be sent the strong delusion. what a tragic end for the 5 foolish virgins.

with that said this rather old set of articles from cuttingedge ministries is very interesting indeed, many believers are familiar with it, i post it here just in case any haven't seen it (cuttingedge still, in spite of the understanding shown in these articles still, as far as i know, holds to a pretrib rapture theory and is therefore suspect, imo*).....this is my position, i understand many disagree.

sorry if this is already dealt with in a thread somewhere....z}


http://www.angelfire.com/d20/philade...s/fakerap.html


Title: ARE YOU PREPARED IF THE ILLUMINATI STAGES A FAKE RAPTURE OF THE TRUE CHRISTIAN CHURCH?

Subtitle: The Illuminati now claims to have the technical capability to stage the Rapture, they might just carry it out in order to throw extreme panic, confusion, and despair into the hearts of genuine Christians just before their beloved Antichrist arises. ....


(3 part article)

[zone]

here's a follow-up study in Revelation, in sequence that, imo, demolishes the pre-trib teaching.
thoughts?
no offense or discord intended, these are critical issues i believe.


The Saints And The Wrath Of God



The Saints And The Wrath Of God
by Ed Tarkowski

There will be saints in the tribulation, and these saints will be the same ones who see the beginning of the tribulation:

They offer prayers:

(Rev 5:8 KJV) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

The prayers are the saints on earth as "they ascend up before God":

(Rev 8:3-4 KJV) And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. {4} And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

After the Lord delivers God's final wrath, the saints are rewarded, not seven years before or near the end of the tribulation as other doctrines propose:

(Rev 11:18 KJV) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The antichrist makes war with the saints during the tribulation:

(Rev 13:7 KJV) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The saints must persevere during the tribulation:

(Rev 13:10 KJV) He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The saints must have patience during the tribulation:

(Rev 14:12 KJV) Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The blood of the saints is shed during the tribulation:

(Rev 16:6 KJV) For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

The blood of the saints is shed during the tribulation:

(Rev 17:6 KJV) And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

In Babylon is found the blood of the saints:

(Rev 18:24 KJV) And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

ALL the saints are in the holy city at the end of the millennium, which, if you think about it, are saints just like those in the tribulation because there are no classifications of saints. Saints are saints:

(Rev 20:9 KJV) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

SAINT (Strong's) sacred (phys. pure, mor. blameless or religious, cer. consecrated):--(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Jew or gentile, male or female, rich or poor can all be saints ONLY BY the shed blood of Christ. So MUST BE the saints in the tribulation. The unbelieving Jews in the tribulation are not saints. The unbelieving Gentiles in the tribulation are not saints. Those who are saints belong to Christ and are members of the church. Any doctrine that says the saints are raptured and God saves more saints to be in the tribulation have to create a new, biblically undefined species of "saint" and come under the warnings of Revelation 22:17-20. Why people nullify the word of God by following the perverted teachings of men and jeapordize their spiritual inheritance in the Rev 22 verses, I don't understand. They would deny the saint's presence in the tribulation by verbal gymnastics when it clearly says they are present within it. There is nothing to distinguish the saints in tribulation from any other saint. They pray during it, they are martyred during it, the persevere during it, they keep their garments pure during all their trials and Jesus addresses encouragement to them in it:

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Only a saint can do these things, a saint who is committed to Jesus with his very life's blood. How ridiculous the theories that deny God's word.
I would love to hear a TRUE definition of what distinguishes the blood-bought saints of the tribulation saints from those who are supposedly raptured before the tribulation.
I don't understand why pretribbers don't understand that they're going to be present when the wrath is poured out? The church returns with Jesus when He treads out the wrath in Revelation 19. All the saints will be there and witness it and the glory of our salvation will be seen: that wrath will not hurt us having been raptured just before it WITH THEIR BODY CHANGED TO BE IMMORTAL WHICH WILL NOT BE SUBJECT TO DESTRUCTION OR CORRUPTION. The wrath won't hurt us one bit.
The seven bowls of wrath, poured out before these events, are on the kingdom of the antichrist and won't harm the saints because they are not of his kingdom (just as Israel didn't experience the plagues of Egypt).
The Wrath Of Revelation In Relation To The Saints
The first bowl is poured out on those who have the mark of the beast and worship his image. The saints in the trib - AND THERE ARE SAINTS IN THE TRIB - are exempt from this bowl:

Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

The second and third bowls are poured out upon the waters of earth as a judgment ON THOSE WHO KILLED GOD'S SAINTS AND PROPHETS (v. 6). The saints naturally are exempt from this bowl:

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man; and every living soul died in the sea.
Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

The fourth bowl is poured out on the sun to scorch UNREPENTANT MEN (v. 11) with fire. The saints in the trib are exempt from this bowl:

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

The fifth bowl is poured out on the kingdom of the beast and its inhabitants because they REPENTED NOT. The saints in the trib are exempt from this bowl:

Rev 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
Rev 16:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

The sixth bowl is poured out to bring the kings of the east (which are definitely not the saints) and evil spiritual forces call the world's armies to Armageddon. The saints are exempt from this bowl:

Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

As these forces gather for Armageddon, what follows is the rapture of the Church (the saints on earth included). The saints are exempt from this bowl. In fact, Jesus tells the saints in the next verse:

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

We are deep into the tribulation with the kingdom of darkness falling into pieces, the evil armies gathering to Armageddon, and Jesus saying He is about to come. The saints are raptured as He descends and the gathered, evil armies destroyed in that descent with ALL the saints, those raised and those changed:

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Notice in verse 16:21 the verse no longer adds "and they repented not." The time of repentance is over, Christ has come with His saints and the millennial reign begins.

None of these bowls have anything to do with the church. The pretrib argument that the church won't be in the tribulation because they are not meant for wrath is a useless defense BECAUSE THE BOWLS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM even if they are present. In fact, the saints find themselves smack-dab in the middle of the outpouring of God's wrath in the person of Christ because they return with Him when He pours out that wrath after the first six bowls:

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
REV 19:14 AND THE ARMIES WHICH WERE IN HEAVEN FOLLOWED HIM UPON WHITE HORSES, CLOTHED IN FINE LINEN, WHITE AND CLEAN.
REV 19:15 AND OUT OF HIS MOUTH GOETH A SHARP SWORD, THAT WITH IT HE SHOULD SMITE THE NATIONS: AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON: AND HE TREADETH THE WINEPRESS OF THE FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The pretribulation doctrine absolutely destroys this glorious picture of the completion of the salvation of the saints!!!! We are changed to be like him and are changed incorruptible while the birds of the air pluck at the bodies of the unrepentant slain. This scene is further described in Zechariah:

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

THE SAINTS OF GOD RETURNING WITH CHRIST NOW CHANGED TO BE LIKE HIM STAND WITH HIM IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL THIS WRATH. The pretrib argument destroys the glory and power that is due Christ.
You can respect men, but respected men have fostered great apostasy in the church because men don't read their bibles but look for implications or suppositions to prove their point and for someone else to do their thinking for them. This kind of garbage has been in the Church for decades and has increased and the devil is deceiving more men more than ever. The time is very short I would say. There are BLOOD-BOUGHT saints in the trib who will see all of this wrath of God on the evil of this world and they will not be affected because they are in Christ. NO PRETRIBBER has been able to explain WITH SCRIPTURE why God pulls out the entire Church before the trib because that is His pattern and then saves some more to go through the trib. EXPLAIN WHY GOD BROKE HIS PATTERN BY SAVING MORE SAINTS TO GO THROUGH THE TRIBULATION??????????????? The answer is simple to those who have eyes to see.

[zone]

and the last set of studies, i believe prove who/what is Mystery Babylon The Great....

again, severe deception, though clearly prophesied has com to pass. Rev 2:9 and 3:9 are the key - John was taken forward in time to The Lord's Day and shown what would be taking place just prior to, at and after The Second Coming, THE LORD'S DAY

this is my position, i know many believe otherwise.........z:

The Great Whore

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS

AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH

Here is the original Greek of Rev. 17:9 from the Greek Textus Recptus:
Rev 17:9
ωδε5602 ADV ο3588 T-NSM νους3563 N-NSM ο3588 T-NSM εχων2192 V-PAP-NSM σοφιαν4678 N-ASF αι3588 T-NPF επτα2033 A-NUI κεφαλαι2776 N-NPF ορη3735 N-NPN εισιν1510 V-PAI-3P επτα2033 A-NUI οπου3699 ADV η3588 T-NSF
γυνη1135 N-NSF (WOMAN) καθηται2521 V-PNI-3S (SITS) επ1909 PREP (UPON)αυτων846 P-GPN(THEM)
Rev. 17:9Here the mind having wisdom. The Seven Heads Mountains are Seven, where the Woman sits upon THEM. αυτων846 P-GPN There greek word ‘autos’ used here for where the Woman sits (MOUNTAINS) is a - pronoun PLURAL genitive neuter.
The Greek Textus Receptus clearly states that the Woman sits upon ALL 7 Mountains (Kingdoms) and NOT just merely upon some other part of the Beast (its back, etc.).
Please note if we lose the understanding above of the Woman sitting upon ALL 7 former Kingdoms we will NOT be able to correctly ‘identify’ who the WHORE/Harlot actually is.
Meanwhile, it must ALSO be noted that the 7 Heads of the Scarlet Abyss Beast are equal to 7 Mountains/Kingdoms AND THEY are also equal to 7 Kings. Therefore, we must interpret Rev. 17:9-10 as sequential Heads. Thus, ONE Head is equal to ONE Mountain/Kingdom AND (conjunction) ONE King. We CANNOT assume that ONE Head is equal to 7 Mountains, etc.
ALL 7 Heads CANNOT co-exist simultaneously, per Rev. 13:3 ONLY ONE of the 7 Heads of the Beast is futuristically HEALED and NOT all 7 Heads. So PLEASE, do not attempt to make them all co-exist in the future.
The ‘Great City’ is indeed a literal City just as Scripture states and NOT a figurative or an abstract City.
If we list ALL six Empires we know from history that apply to the 7 Heads/Kingdoms (we do Not know the 7th) then we must ask the logical question where was the ‘City’ of Rome during the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Grecian Empires – it did NOT even exist? We must remember that this literal Harlot ‘City’ just as I have shown in my previous email was associated with EACH of those former Empires.
Meanwhile, the Woman (the literal City) NEVER changes from Head to Head or Kingdom to Kingdom we just get another presentation of her internal practices of ‘Paganism’ – The Harlot City is a CONSTANT and a common denominator to each of the 7 Kingdoms (actually 8) of which she rides.
For example, it is suggested that the ‘Harlot City’ is New York – I ask you where was the ‘City’ of New York during the reign of the first 6 Kingdoms as stated above, it did NOT even exist. Some suggest it is the U.S. – I ask is a ‘City’ a Country or is it as Scripture states – a CITY, where was the U.S. during the reign of the 1st 6 Kingdoms of the Scarlet Beast?
Rev. 17:18
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
In Rev. 17:18 we are ‘looking’ for a NAME of an apostate CITY which has had and will have a ‘Harlotry’ relationship with ALL 7 Heads of the Scarlet Beast.
There is only one CITY on earth where God has chosen to put his NAME – Jerusalem.
As stated, in Rev. 17:18 we are looking for the Name of an apostate CITY and in Scripture this apostate City has the SAME name as the ‘eternal’ Righteous City of God where the Redeemed will make their homes just as you say. Meanwhile, this ‘righteous’ CITY now reigns at this time from Heaven and later from earth over ALL Kings of the earth.
Rev. 21:24
And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
The Bible (KJV) clearly declares that Mystery, Babylon The Great is a literal city with a geographical location from where the Antichrist will reign over many kings of the earth:

Rev. 17:18
"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

Following are Biblical Scriptures that reveal future JERUSALEM as this symbolic (Mystery) city:

Rev. 17:5-6
"And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. [6] And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration."
Babylon is a symbolic name. Look at how Jerusalem is referred to by similar analogous names such as Sodom, Gomorrah, and Egypt. All of these, Sodom, Gomorrah, Egypt, and Babylon are all recorded enemies of God’s people.

Isaiah 1:1-21
"The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah...
Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah... How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. "
Moses warns the Jews how God will punish them and destroy their land if they forsake His covenant.

Deut. 29:23-25
"And that the whole land thereof is brimstone, and salt, and burning, that it is not sown, nor beareth, nor any grass groweth therein, like the overthrow of Sodom, and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the Lord overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath: [24] Even all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the Lord done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger? Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the Lord God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:"

Jeremiah 23:14
"I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah."

Romans 9:27-29
"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: [28] For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. [29] And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha."

In the Book of Revelation John continues this use of mystery names for the "Great City." He uses symbolism to refer to people who had betrayed God’s people.
Rev. 11:8
"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."
Revelation 11:8 is extremely important because it tells us just where this "Great City" is. It is "where our Lord was crucified." It is Jerusalem.

DRESSED IN PURPLE, SCARLET, AND DECKED WITH GOLD

Rev. 17:4
"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:"
Rev. 18:16
"And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!"
Jeremiah 4:30-31
"And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life. [31] For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers."
A GREAT CITY WHO SAYS SHE IS NO WIDOW
Rev. 17:18
"And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth." Rev. 18:7-8
"How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. [8] Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her."

Rev. 11:8
"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."
Lament. 1:1
"How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people how is she become as a widow she that was great among the nations, and princess among the provinces, how is she become tributary..."


...................cont.........

[zone]

Mystery Babylon cont......

"BABYLON" IS CALLED THE GREAT CITY
Rev. 18:10
"Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come."

Jerusalem is also called the "Great City".
Jeremiah 22:4-8

"For if ye do this thing indeed, then shall there enter in by the gates of this house kings sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, he, and his servants, and his people. [5] But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the Lord, that this house shall become a desolation. [6] For thus saith the Lord unto the king's house of Judah; Thou art Gilead unto me, and the head of Lebanon: yet surely I will make thee a wilderness, and cities which are not inhabited. [7] And I will prepare destroyers against thee, every one with his weapons: and they shall cut down thy choice cedars, and cast them into the fire. [8] And many nations shall pass by this city, and they shall say every man to his neighbour, Wherefore hath the Lord done thus unto this great city?"

"BABYLON" AND THE DEATHS OF THE PROPHETS
Rev. 17:5-6
"And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. [6] And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration."

Rev. 18:24
"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth."
Compare the above Scriptures with the following Scriptures about Jerusalem.
Luke 11:47-51
"Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. [48] Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. [49] Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: [50] That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; [51] From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation."

Luke 13:31-34
"The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. [32] And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. [33] Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. [34] O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

Matthew 23:29-36
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, [30] And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. [31] Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. [32] Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. [33] Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the ****ation of hell? [34] Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: [35] That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. [36] Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. "

Matthew 24:34
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

DESTROYED WITH FIRE
God promised blessings to the Jews if they obeyed, Deut 28:8, and seven curses if they disobeyed, verses 15 -20. God’s Covenant is effected by His Oath. The word "oath" is based on the word "seven." Thus, the number "seven" represents the Covenant. In Leviticus He threatens to punish the Jews with fire if they break His Covenant.
Leviticus 26:15-16
"And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: [16] I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it."

Leviticus 26:27-28
"And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; [28] Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins."

It was prophesied that Jerusalem would be destroyed by fire in the following passages:
Ezekiel 16:2-3
"Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, [3] And say, Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite."

Ezekiel 16:35
"Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the Lord:"

Ezekiel 16:38
"And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy."

Ezekiel 16:41
"And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more."

Ezekiel 23:2-4
"Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother: [3] And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity. [4] And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah."

Ezekiel 23:17-19
"And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them. [18] So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister. [19] Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt."

Ezekiel 23:22-25
"Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side; [23] The Babylonians, and all the Chaldeans, Pekod, and Shoa, and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them: all of them desirable young men, captains and rulers, great lords and renowned, all of them riding upon horses. [24] And they shall come against thee with chariots, wagons, and wheels, and with an assembly of people, which shall set against thee buckler and shield and helmet round about: and I will set judgment before them, and they shall judge thee according to their judgments. [25] And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire."

Ezekiel 23:44-47
"Yet they went in unto her, as they go in unto a woman that playeth the harlot: so went they in unto Aholah and unto Aholibah, the lewd women.
[45] And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands. [46] For thus saith the Lord God; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled. [47] And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire."

Also see Lamentations 2:4, and 4:11 and Ezekiel 19:12, 21:2-3, 22:19-21,
In John's prophetic vision future "Babylon" is to be destroyed by fire.
Rev. 18:8
"Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her."

Rev. 18:17
"For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off..."

Jerusalem was a center for commercial trade, but true to prophecy it was completely destroyed by fire in 70 AD, whereas, Rome was only partially burned by Nero.
The burning of Jerusalem by fire also had theological significance. The City of Jerusalem is often referred to as a daughter.
Lament. 2:15-18
"All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth? [16] All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth: they say, We have swallowed her up: certainly this is the day that we looked for; we have found, we have seen it. [17] The Lord hath done that which he had devised; he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old: he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy to rejoice over thee, he hath set up the horn of thine adversaries. [18] Their heart cried unto the Lord, O wall of the daughter of Zion, let tears run down like a river day and night: give thyself no rest; let not the apple of thine eye cease."

Unfaithfulness to God is frequently compared to as sexual immorality.
The penalty for fornication by the daughter of the priest called for a special punishment. She was to be burned to death.
Leviticus 21:9
"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."

So, when Jerusalem was offered the opportunity to accept Christ, but instead rejected Him, she is referred to as the "Whore of Babylon" who is subsequently to be burned to death.

THE HARLOT
Just as "Babylon" is referred to as a whore, a harlot, Jerusalem is also called a harlot.
Rev. 17:1
"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:"

Ezekiel 16:1-3
"Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, [2] Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations, [3] And say, Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite."

Ezekiel 16:26
"Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to provoke me to anger."
Jeremiah 2:1-2
"Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, [2] Go and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the Lord; I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness, in a land that was not sown."

Jeremiah 2:17-20
"Hast thou not procured this unto thyself, in that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God, when he led thee by the way? [18] And now what hast thou to do in the way of Egypt, to drink the waters of Sihor? or what hast thou to do in the way of Assyria, to drink the waters of the river? [19] Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord God of hosts. [20] For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot."

Isaiah 1:1
"The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah."

Isaiah 1:21
"How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers."

Jeremiah 3:1-2
"They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the Lord. [2] Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness."

Jeremiah 3:6-8
"The Lord said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot. [7] And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. [8] And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also."

Jeremiah 5:1
"Run ye to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem, and see now, and know, and seek in the broad places thereof, if ye can find a man, if there be any that executeth judgment, that seeketh the truth; and I will pardon it."

Jeremiah 5:5-7
"I will get me unto the great men, and will speak unto them; for they have known the way of the Lord, and the judgment of their God: but these have altogether broken the yoke, and burst the bonds. [6] Wherefore a lion out of the forest shall slay them, and a wolf of the evenings shall spoil them, a leopard shall watch over their cities: every one that goeth out thence shall be torn in pieces: because their transgressions are many, and their backslidings are increased.
[7] How shall I pardon thee for this? thy children have forsaken me, and sworn by them that are no gods: when I had fed them to the full, they then committed adultery, and assembled themselves by troops in the harlots' houses."

......................

cont.........

[zone]

Mystery Babylon cont......

Ezekiel 23:1-5
"The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, [2] Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother: [3] And they committed whoredoms in Egypt; they committed whoredoms in their youth: there were their breasts pressed, and there they bruised the teats of their virginity. [4] And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah. [5] And Aholah played the harlot when she was mine; and she doted on her lovers, on the Assyrians her neighbours..."

Ezekiel 23:11
"And when her sister Aholibah saw this, she was more corrupt in her inordinate love than she, and in her whoredoms more than her sister in her whoredoms."

Ezekiel 23:17-19
"And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them. [18] So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister. [19] Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt."

MY PEOPLE
A very important verse is Revelation 18:4
Rev. 18:4
"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."
God said, "Come out of her, my people …"
Who does "my people" refer to and where are they at ? These are important questions. The term "my people" is the key.
Jeremiah 31:31-33
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: [32] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: [33] But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

The term 'My People' is clearly a covenant language and is a reference to people who were supposed to be in a covenant relationship with God. This becomes even more evident when we examine just what it means to be in a covenant. A covenant is very different from a contract. Thus, a covenant is as different from a contract as marriage is different from prostitution. In a contract, two people exchange goods and services - this becomes yours and that becomes mine, or 'I will do this for you and you will do that for me.' However, as anyone knows contracts are made and broken.
A covenant is an exchange of persons. "I will become yours and you will become mine."
Ezekiel 37:26-27
"Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. [27] My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
To this end, where were God’s chosen people when John wrote Revelations? They were still under the Old Covenant, in Jerusalem and God wanted them to abandon the Mosaic Covenant and come into Yeshua's New Blood Covenant of Grace. Meanwhile, God could refer to them as 'My People' because they were under His Old Covenant. Such will be the case for God's chosen people when they rebuild the Temple and give themselves over to the dictates of the Beast Apollyon and the future Antichrist.
Hebrews 13:12-14
"Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. [13] Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. [14] For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come."

CONCLUSION
The Whore of Babylon is a symbolic name for the future corrupt apostate city of Jerusalem ruled by the Antichrist, upon whom God's judgment of fire will fall.

Jerusalem is the only one according to Jesus that is responsible for all of the deaths of all the prophets and all of the apostles and all of the saints. Jesus said God's vengeance would come against that people, in that generation. They would be judged for spilling all the righteous blood shed on earth.

............................................

'BABYLON THE GREAT' IS ISRAEL

By Rev. Ted Pike
29 Mar 10


In the mystical book of Revelation, the apostle John sees a scarlet woman called “ Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth.” She is drunk on the blood of Christians and rides a many-horned and -headed beast. John was told this woman symbolized a city that would one day rule and corrupt the world. Who is this woman? Does she exist today?
The answer lies thousands of years in history, in a story of redemption, love and betrayal – recounted in Ezekiel 16. This stern yet tender allegory tells how God rescued Israel from death as a rejected infant and chose her for His spiritual bride – not because of her goodness but out of His compassion. From the furnace of Egyptian bondage, the tiny Hebrew nation burst forth. She plagued Pharaoh, crossed the divided sea and finally lived under Moses’ leadership in the desert of Sinai. There God entered the covenant of spiritual marriage with His bride. But that happiness was so brief!

[Israel] you trusted in your beauty and played the harlot because of your fame and poured out your harlotry on every passer-by who might be willing… (Ezekiel 16:15).

From Moses through the prophets, Israel is repeatedly characterized as an imperious whore. In more than 80 instances, she is specifically denounced as a harlot or lewd woman. Isaiah and the other pre-exilic prophets aimed their wrath at Jerusalem: “How the faithful city has become a harlot!" (Isaiah 1:21) Isaiah denounced apostate Jews as “sons of a sorceress, offspring of an adulterer and a prostitute” (Isaiah 57:3).
Did Israel’s evil ways end in the dusty annals of the Old Testament? No. Israel rejected Jesus Christ, her Messiah. She has never yet repented. This compels an inevitable conclusion: Israel of today and tomorrow is the same symbolic woman once chosen as God’s unique bride but ultimately divorced and cast away because of her spiritual adultery.Israel is that “Mother of Harlots” John saw on the beast of Revelation 17 and 18.

Israel was the first to marry God (Christ) and be spiritually one with Him. Thus the position she enjoyed as a spiritual bride was unique to her. Likewise, only apostate Israel can be the “mother” of spiritual whoredom. When she was chosen as Christ’s bride, other nations were disobedient like a child to its parent. Only Israel was made capable of a wife’s infidelity. As a result, when she became a spiritual whore, she was indelibly marked, “Mother of Harlots.” Jeremiah said, “You had a harlot's forehead, you refused to be ashamed.” (Jer. 3:3) Other apostate systems may be spiritual harlots but only Israel is “mother” of that scarlet sorority. And without repentance, neither time nor wanderings can remove that epithet from her. When Israel shouted, “Crucify Him! Crucify Him!” her resurrected spouse banished her. The Jewish people were condemned to wander like a woman divorced for adultery, perpetually looking for that substitute husband (anti-Christ) who would take the place of the One she killed.

The Great City

What has happened to that rejected unfaithful wife today?
Revelation 17 confronts us with the specter of a city “which reigns over the kings of the earth.” It has physical power—more wealth and importance than any other city—but also spiritual power, embodying the full potentiality of human degeneracy. “What city is like this great city?” the merchants of the earth will wail. This city is so commercially important that when she falls, world trade also comes crashing down. The title “the great city” is exclusive. There will doubtless be other powerful cities in the end time but John witnesses “the great city,” an unequaled center of trade, political power, culture and human bondage.
And to whom does that term refer? In Revelation, “the great city” (hey polis megaley in Greek) is used to clearly refer to Jerusalem, capitol of the Jewish people! When the two witnesses are killed, their dead bodies lie in the streets of “the great city (hey polis megaley). "... Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified” (Revelation 11:8). This unmistakably implies that powerful, corrupt Babylon and the great city “ Sodom and Egypt, where our Lord was crucified,” are the same city… Jerusalem.
The apostle Peter, bishop of Jerusalem, also calls Jerusalem “ Babylon.” He sends greetings from the church in Jerusalem saying, “She who is in Babylon…sends you greetings” (1 Peter 5:13). Peter never visited Babylon. He is clearly identifying the moral cesspool of antiquity, Babylon, with the city where Christ was killed.
There are other reasons to believe “ Babylon the Great” means the Jewish city. When she is destroyed, Revelation describes the fall of this city as different from that of “Gentile” (ethnos) cities. “And the great city was divided into three parts and the cities of the nations (Gentiles) fell…” (Revelation 16:19) A city which is not Gentile must, of course, be Jewish.
Also, Rev. 18:24 says that the great city is guilty for having shed the blood of the Hebrew prophets and righteous from the beginning of history. Jesus said the same concerning the rulers of Jerusalem, the Pharisees: "that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar" (Matt. 23:35).
Yet even from earliest post-apostolic times, Christians have misread Revelation’s prophecy. They thought Babylon the Great meant Rome, which has traditionally been described as sitting on seven hills. Yet the city of Rome encompasses many more than seven hills. This is not true of Jerusalem. Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D. points out:

the City of Jerusalem as it existed in the time of Christ Jesus was also reckoned to be a 'City of Seven Hills.' This fact was well recognized in Jewish circles. In the Pirke de-Rabbi Eliezer, an 8th century A.D. midrashic [Talmudic] narrative (Section 10), the writer mentioned without commentary (showing that the understanding was well known and required no defense) that, "Jerusalem is situated on seven hills." ("The Seven Hills of Jerusalem” The Seven Hills of Jerusalem)

Armenian Christians, living for centuries in Palestine, taught their schoolchildren that the seven hills are: Mt. of Olives, Mt. Scopus, Mt. Zion, Mt. Moriah (the Temple mount), Golgotha, Hill of Moses, and Mt. Herzl.
Scripture also describes only one city as center of world rule in the last days, and that is Jerusalem. Paul states clearly that the anti-Christ will declare his one-world authority from the temple at Jerusalem, where he proclaims he is God. (2 Thess. 2:4) When the two witnesses resist him, they do not battle a papal anti-Christ but “the wicked profane prince of Israel” in Jerusalem. (Ezek. 21:25) These scriptures point to Jerusalem as the epicenter of one-world rebellion against God; Jerusalem and Babylon are one!

Modern Judaism is Babylonian

There is more depth to the metaphor. Judaism literally is Babylonian, more than nearly any other religion or culture. Most of its religious laws and traditions, including the Babylonian Talmud and Zohar (Kabbalah), come from nearly 1,600 years Jews spent on the fertile plains of Shinar. Few religions have a deeper tradition of occult. Revelation describes Babylon the Great deceiving the world through her “sorceries” and the Jewish encyclopedias tell us it was Judaism which carried Babylon’s black arts, demonology and astrology to the West.
This is as true today as ever. Jewish supremacism today is not only erecting a political, financial, commercial world empire but spewing filth on the nations through their movie and TV media. (link to Jews in media article) They spearhead freedom-destroying, pro-homosexual hate crimes laws worldwide and abet all forms of left-wing and anti-Christ radicalism through their “civil liberties” fronts such as ADL, ACLU and the Southern Poverty Law Center.
And just as “Babylon the Great” will deceive the world, so Jewish leaders today present a whitewashed façade to Christians and the world – an illusion of goodness that has never been more convincing or scrupulously maintained. The Jewish lobby deceived Christians into unquestioning support of Israel’s ambitions and atrocities in the Mideast; this is awesome evidence of the manipulative influence Jewry will enjoy as we draw even closer to the end. When Christ warned that the delusions of the end time would be so irresistible that “even the very elect” could be deceived, He was speaking of our day!
In our day we witness the continuing and monstrous complications of that great divorce of Christ from his chosen bride millennia ago. We are not simply approaching the foothills of anti-Christ. We are in them. Through intrigue and deception, the control and commercialism of “ Babylon the Great” has come surround us. Yet we have not perceived it. We have, in fact, assisted it.
Babylon is now.
How should Christians respond to the fact that Israel and Babylon are one? Jesus tells us the answer. "Come out of her, my people, that you may not participate in her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues, for her sins have piled up as high as heaven…" (Rev. 18:4-5)

(Adapted from Israel: Our Duty Our Dilemma by Rev. Ted Pike, 345 pages, illustrated, available for $24.90 post-paid from NPN, P.O. Box 828, Clackamas, OR 97015)

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TO PLACE THE FINAL PIECE OF THE PUZZLE, RESEARCH

THE NOAHIDE LAWS

[VW]

I don't believe that those who are in Christ are a part of either the first or the second resurrection.

I don't believe that Israel and Babylon are the same, or even remotely alike.

Babylon is all religion, every belief which replaces a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. She is a harlot, because she maintains that she knows God, but demands that those who are in her follow her, and not God. Any belief that is not centered on drawing near to God through Jesus is of Babylon.

[silverwind]

Yes, there will be a rapture.. but we won't know when. If we did, then everyone would go on a snooze vacation instead of doing God's work.

zone: IMO you posted too much reading zzzz

[Mich223]

I don't believe in the rapture. I believe that there will be a resurrection.

[zone]

THE SEVEN LAWS OF NOAH / NOAHIDE LAWS

come from

THE TALMUD

came from BABYLON


..............................

none of the above things has anything whatsoever to do with

THE OLD TESTAMENT / TORAH

the book of the true children of Israel / jews (some of whom have believed in Jesus and are now Christians, some of whom are blinded until the fullness of the gentiles is come in - a remnant SHALL BE SAVED)

........................

the Babylonian TALMUD is/was the unholy book of the Pharisees, and their leading body THE SANHEDRIN.

JESUS MADE THIS CLEAR.

what does that have to do with today / future?

guess who made a REAPPEARANCE after 1600 years?, precisely in 2004:

The Sanhedrin - en



ESTABLISHING WORLDWIDE COURTS OF JUSTICE TO ENFORCE THE NOAHIDE LAWS.

Jerusalem Court for Issues of Bnei Noah - The Sanhedrin - en

are the Noahide Laws anywhere in our Bible? no. they come from the TALMUD, the very same set of TRADITIONS the Pharisees, who sat in the seat of Moses imposed on the children of Israel. Jesus told us who these are.

what is the ultimate aim?

after these LAWS are in place, the Sanhedrin, under the authority of THE FALSE MESSIAH will BEHEAD any who break them.

that means US.

Revelation 20
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

.....................................



<< 2 Thessalonians 2 >>
King James Version

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be ****ed who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

[silverwind]

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1. Thess.) 'caught up' means in Greek 'harpazo' and in latin 'rapere' and refers to 'being caught up or a sudden taken away'...


Here's my question to you:
in Revelation 19 there appears to be a large multitude in heaven... (apparently the bride of Christ ready for the wedding feast), so if they are already in heaven with Jesus, then why is he returning in Chapter 20 (after the multitude is already with him in heaven :O) on a white horse to set foot on the Mt. of Olives? I believe the church (which is the bride of Christ) is with Jesus BEFORE his return to earth.
"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean". (chpt. 20 vs 14) If we come BACK with him, then there must've been some time when we were caught up?

[silverwind]

sorry, i meant Chapter 19 (from vs. 14)
my mistake.

[zone]

Revelation 2
8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; 9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. 10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.


Revelation 3

7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; 8I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. 12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. 13He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION is that time of Jacob's trouble, the time OF TEMPTATION.....temptation to do what?

to worship the devil and receive his mark.

but Jesus reassures ONLY these 2 churches who KNOW there is a false people, (as well as His Covenant people the true jews yet to believe at His Coming), that beacuse they have loved Him enough, have received the love of the truth at any cost to themselves that they have continued past the deceptions, remained faithful in study to come to the knowledge of the truth of what lies ahead.

He assures Philedelphia that He will keep them from the temptation.....not by rapturing them out somewhere, but by KEEPING them from falling, within the midst of it all.

are we among these?

I agree with Silverwind. The rapture is the time when the "Bride of Christ" is taken up to heaven. The tribulation is a time for the Jews and the fulfillment of Danial seven years. Like Revelations describes there will be many that come to Christ during the tribulation, but that is a different group then the Bride.

[VW]

Originally Posted by Mich223

I don't believe in the rapture. I believe that there will be a resurrection.

Jesus said that He is the resurrection and the life. These are not the same thing.

[silverwind]

something that we may want to ponder:

The jewish wedding was celebrated in that the bride would wait for the groom but didn't know when he would come and get her, because he was busy setting up their bridal chambers for her AT HIS HOUSE WHERE HE RESIDES WITH HIS FATHER before he would return to get her. This was not done until the FATHER of the groom said to the groom to go get her only when things were ready for her. The event was often at night when the groom came to get her there was a shout and she would hear that shout and grab her things to go meet him.
Similar to this, the Lord is telling us that he will return for his bride when he is done preparing a place for her. His Father then will tell him it's time. There will be a shout and a trumpet call much like it was in the jewish wedding. I think we should take these past events serious because Jesus wanted us to know them. He often used examples like that because the Jews knew what he meant. They understood.
In our western culture we are hardly informed in jewish celebrations and what they really mean(t) nor do we understand much of the Lord's Feasts.... which also present themselves as prophetic events celebrated by the Jews.

Something to think about and maybe delve into

[VW]

The wedding feast, with the bride in attendance, takes place in heaven, before Jesus returns to the world. The bride clothes herself in fine white linnen for the feast.

When the new city Jerusalem comes down out of heaven, the one showing John these things calls this new city "the bride." as we are called the temple of God now, then we will be the dwelling place of God, for eternity.

[miktre]

[quote=VW;327471]I don't believe that those who are in Christ are a part of either the first or the second resurrection./quote]
This seems to be a typo of some kind or maybe I am misunderstanding what you are saying. Please clarify.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

[miktre]

Originally Posted by silverwind

zone: IMO you posted too much reading zzzz

The Bible is alot of reading, so I reject that notion. Is this encouraging and uplifting for one striving to rightly divide the word? Don't stay sleeping too long.

[greatkraw]

lots of text

no original thought

[miktre]

Originally Posted by greatkraw

lots of text

no original thought

Most of your posts are

However, it is better when you go over it in your own words rather that copy and paste.
That way people feel more opt to read if you are having a real conversation with them.