DOES GOD CHOOSE, OR DOES MAN CHOOSE?

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DOES GOD CHOOSE PEOPLE FOR SALVATION?

  • YES, GOD CHOOSES PEOPLE FOR SALVATION

    Votes: 13 76.5%
  • NO, GOD DOES NOT CHOOSE PEOPLE FOR SALVATION; THEY CHOOSE THEMSELVES

    Votes: 4 23.5%
  • I REFUSE TO ANSWER BECAUSE IT WOULD EXPOSE MY god-idol

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    17
Feb 1, 2014
733
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#1
Is biblical truth determined by how we feel about it?

Most here believe that those who are lost will suffer eternal torment, and that it involves burning forever.

Some of those who experience this fate are your mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, cousins, etcetera. Some of them took care of you as a child. They are your friends and your neighbors.

They were not axe murderers or Adolf Hitler. Yet, they failed to place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

They will be thrown in the lake of fire, and will suffer everlasting torment, according to the doctrine the vast majority hold.

And, I don't have a problem with this doctrine. I find it credible, and it definitely has Scriptural support. Despite what annihilationists and universalists claim, their views are not irrefutable. There are clear Scriptures in Revelation that indicate eternal torment.

Have you watched the video of the Jordanian pilot dying? He flails in the flames a bit, then just kneels down as his face melts off. Dying by flames is not fun...and what does it mean for this to go on eternally? I don't know.

So, there are distasteful doctrines that the majority of us believe. Yet, somehow we don't don the robes of a judge and decide that God cannot be like that, and that the doctrine is false. Somehow, we know that wouldn't be a right approach concerning eternal punishment; God has a prerogative to do what he wants with the lost.

Yet, when it comes to election, we decide God CANNOT have the prerogative to choose. The Bible CANNOT mean that God chooses regarding salvation.

Somehow, we devise a way to twist the doctrine so that WE CHOOSE. Make no mistake about it. That is what those who reject particular redemption claim. They claim that one's salvation is a result of THEIR CHOICE, and not GOD'S CHOICE. FREE WILL is their idol, and he rules the day.

Be honest with yourself. The view of foreknowledge that Arminians have is simply an attempt to deny that God chooses, and that man chooses. In this view, the person is simply saying, I choose, yet I want to couch it with language that suggest God chooses.

So, are we basically trying to mold God into our own image, defining the parameters of his activity?

By the way, I see the same thing with regards to original sin. There are MANY who claim that original sin cannot be true, or they re-define it to narrow down the effects of Adam's sin. They will NOT accept that Adam's sin is imputed to mankind, even though Romans 5 is clear in mentioning BOTH death AND condemnation came through Adam, and mentions original sin in the SAME CONTEXT as Christ and his righteousness being imputed to the believer (see Romans 5:17-19).

No..it can't be true..because it doesn't align with my god-idol. He thinks just like me, and that is unfair according to my standards. This is the essence of the problem..making a god-idol in our own image. It isn't a lack of theological clarity; it's a matter of the affront that is presented to their god-idol.

Same with God punishing corporate entities for the sin of an individual..for example, when David numbered Israel, God killed 23,000..and was in the process of killing more, and David begs him to stop, because it was HIS sin that caused the death of these people...somehow those who worship the god-idol clasp their hands over their face and say, God cannot be like that...it doesn't align with my expectations of God and his fairness.

I can acknowledge that some things are distasteful and offensive to me as a human, while at the same time acknowledging that God's word is TRUE and that I am NOT God's judge, and I totally trust Him, regardless if his actions attack my human sensitivities. I am not an unfeeling man who doesn't care what happens to those who don't believe. All of God's judgments are righteous, whether I agree with them or not. He didn't ask my opinion on the issue, and he owns all things. He can do what he wants with his things.

What's my major point with this thread? I am not God and I don't judge God. Nor do I create a god-idol that has the same exact judgment that I have on things, so I can avoid him offending me. I think that's what many do..their god-idol determines what can be the meaning of the text, and they cannot read the text for what it says on those topics. They turn Ray Charles on those texts.
 
Feb 1, 2014
733
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#2
1 Corinthians 1:

[SUP]26 [/SUP]For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards,[SUP][c][/SUP] not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. [SUP]27 [/SUP]But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; [SUP]28 [/SUP]God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, [SUP]29 [/SUP]so that no human being[SUP][d][/SUP] might boast in the presence of God. [SUP]30 [/SUP]And because of him[SUP][e][/SUP] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, [SUP]31 [/SUP]so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”


REFORMED RESPONSE: HALLELUJAH, PRAISE GOD! THANK GOD WHO SAVES WEAK THINGS TO SHOW HIS STRENGTH.

ARMINIAN RESPONSE: I chose me, and my wise decision caused my salvation. Something must be out of context here. Because..I choose me, not God.
 
D

dalconn

Guest
#3
Here we go round the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush... :rolleyes:
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,538
3,502
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#4
God chooses who to save. Those He chooses to save are found in His Son. To be found in His Son, one must believe the gospel of His Son.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#5
God Chose. As Jesus said, it is Gods will that whoever SEES and BELIEVES will have eternal life. God chose to save all who freely receives his gift.
 
D

dalconn

Guest
#6
If we COULD answer this rhetorical question would it cause more souls to be saved??
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#7
Simple attempt to dodge mans responsibility for his sin. If God chooses then man is not responsible. When Adam transgressed did God ordain that Adam should fall? Or did God ordain the consequences of Adams transgression?

Does God have foreknowledge of who is going to receive Christ and who is going to reject Christ? Certainly God knows but does God act to contradict mans choice? Does God compel certain men to be saved?

We are elect because we have trusted Christ. We are not elected to choose Christ. Man has the responsibility to choose because Adam received the knowledge of good and evil. Knowing requires responsibility to choose. God is magnified in our choice. Love compelled is not love but obligation.

God gave Christ as a gift to the world that through Christ the world might be saved. It is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance. God leads men God does not compel men.

Do not make God responsible for your sin. God does not tempt nor does God lead men to sin. God leads men to repentance. Some will not follow but that does not diminish Gods love for the sinner.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#8
Greetings Sparkman.

Yet, when it comes to election, we decide God CANNOT have the prerogative to choose. The Bible CANNOT mean that God chooses regarding salvation.
Is this the crux of your thread? You believe Arminianists have wrongly determined that God has commanded mankind to freely choose Him or reject Him? Is this a fair view of your reasoning?

They claim that one's salvation is a result of THEIR CHOICE, and not GOD'S CHOICE.
Arminianists simply believe that salvation comes through obedience of the Gospel of Christ. They may differ on what is needed to obey but the choice to obey is not God's but theirs. Mankind did not hijack this choice, it was freely given by a sovereign God. This understanding is the flow and form of the entire Bible. From the commands in the Garden of Eden to the commands to the churches in Revelation, God has always demanded of man to choose his own path.

To deny this theme is to deny the very purpose of the Bible itself.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#9
If we COULD answer this rhetorical question would it cause more souls to be saved??
If mankind has no freewill then no.

If mankind has freewill will then yes.
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
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#10
Boy! Could you be any more Dogmatically Calvinistic with a poll?

God offers Salvation, through Christ, to all. Each person individually chooses whether or not he/she will accept, or reject, the offer.
 
Last edited:

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
57
48
#11
I understand the endgame of Arminianism, to encourage people to choose the narrow way that leads to God. But what is the endgame of Calvinism, to just hope that God picked them to be dragged along the narrow path?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,763
113
#12
Yet, when it comes to election, we decide God CANNOT have the prerogative to choose. The Bible CANNOT mean that God chooses regarding salvation.
"We" decide nothing when it comes to salvation. Christians -- and all men -- must go strictly by what the Bible reveals. Since God desires the salvation of all human beings, He would elect all to be saved, and all would "irresistibly" be saved. But that is definitely NOT God's plan of salvation. In order to understand the who, how, when, where, why of salvation, we must believe the actual recorded words of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world. And this is what He has said (John 3:14-21):

THE BRAZEN SERPENT IS A TYPE OF CHRIST
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

ETERNAL LIFE IS FOR “WHOSOEVER” BELIEVES ON CHRIST
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

THE SAVIOR WAS GIVEN FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

GOD DESIRES THE WORLD OF HUMANITY TO BE SAVED
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

BUT SINNERS MUST THEMSELVES RESPOND TO THE GOSPEL
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

THOSE WHO LOVE SIN AND EVIL WILL NOT CHOOSE CHRIST
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

EVILDOERS HATE BEING EXPOSED TO THE LIGHT OF CHRIST
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

THOSE WHO DO "TRUTH" COME TO THE LIGHT OF CHRIST
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So according to the New Testament and Gospel Truth, if He were in fact "choosing for salvation", God would choose all human beings so that "the world through him [Christ] might be saved". How can anyone possibly misunderstand this simple truth?
 
Last edited:
Dec 9, 2011
13,703
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#13
If man did not have a choice whether to accept or reject the WORD of GOD would GOD be just?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,247
25,715
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#15
God will administer justice perfectly, and mercifully. He has provided a way for us to be reconciled to Him through the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ. All praise and honor and power and glory shall be accorded to Him, Who gave His life as a ransom for many due to His great and everlasting love for us. He is long suffering, desiring that all come to a knowledge of the truth, for He desires that none perish, and that everyone to come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count
slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any
should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that
whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Acts 4:12
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name
under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.


Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift
of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who
looks on the Son and believes in him should have
eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.


John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his
name, he gave the right to become children of God,


1 Timothy 2:4
Who desires all people to be saved and
to come to the knowledge of the truth.


John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life;
whoever does not obey the Son shall not see
life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

But God shows his love for us in that while
we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive
us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


 

Dan58

Senior Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,991
337
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#16
Its a 2-way street, God calls and we choose... I believe God calls everyone, its not a selective or exclusive invitation (John 3:16). While God did select specific people for specific purposes, the gospel invitation for salvation is available to all who are willing to receive it; "To him that knocketh it shall be opened" (Matthew 7:8). A life-preserver was thrown to all, but not everyone grabs it. An offer and acceptance is required, a gift needs to be opened.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,937
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#17
When God commands you to be saved, you obey! No choice at all. When God spoke to me, there was no resisting his will for my life, which was to believe and serve him.

But I was lied to in Arminian churches for years, even though what I was reading in my Bible confirmed my experience! Which was God saved me, through the preaching of the gospel!

God is totally in control and sovereign in salvation. And yes, we do obey, because he has commanded us to walk with him! But, he also gives us the power, through the Holy Spirit to obey God and be transformed. (Romans 12:2; 2 Cor. 3:18)
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,359
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#18
- Does God choose or does man choose?
- Both.

On a certain day in March, 1986, I chose to get baptized, but little did I know that God had already chosen me. Now I know that we have free will and are at the same time predestined.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
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#19
When God commands you to be saved, you obey!
Acts 17:30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Have all men everywhere repented?

Why not?
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
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#20
God is totally in control and sovereign in salvation.
If that were true, all men would be saved.

1 Tim 2:
4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Pet 3:
9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.