Some words by Spurgeon;
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Wow. Really? More unsubstantiated slamming on your part.
No, of course not. Only you are allowed to point fingers then say you're not. Then it's all good because you told us so.
But of course your name calling, accusations and religious interpretations are exempt. Only those you point your fingers at are guilty. But not you, of course. We should listen to your interpretations but others are only religious, not transformed.
No, of course not. Only you are allowed to point fingers then say you're not. Then it's all good because you told us so.
But of course your name calling, accusations and religious interpretations are exempt. Only those you point your fingers at are guilty. But not you, of course. We should listen to your interpretations but others are only religious, not transformed.
Well isn't that the beauty of God the Holy Spirit interpreting His own words and showing us the hidden meaning of things?
How do you know that the Holy Spirit did not reveal what was in Abraham's mind and heart to the writer (Paul) of Hebrews?
There are several layers to Scripture. Our primary responsibility is to take Scripture in its plain literal sense and contextually. But there is also much more to Scripture. For example, many of the OT people are types of Christ, beginning with Adam. Then we have the Brazen Serpent in the wilderness representing Christ on the Cross. Then we have all of the tabernacle and temple representing the finished work of Christ.
But what no one should say is that the NT writers took things "out of context". How could they when they were penning exactly what God the Holy Spirit was guiding them to do (which included modifying the words given in the OT).
How do you know that the Holy Spirit did not reveal what was in Abraham's mind and heart to the writer (Paul) of Hebrews?
There are several layers to Scripture. Our primary responsibility is to take Scripture in its plain literal sense and contextually. But there is also much more to Scripture. For example, many of the OT people are types of Christ, beginning with Adam. Then we have the Brazen Serpent in the wilderness representing Christ on the Cross. Then we have all of the tabernacle and temple representing the finished work of Christ.
But what no one should say is that the NT writers took things "out of context". How could they when they were penning exactly what God the Holy Spirit was guiding them to do (which included modifying the words given in the OT).
Amen! This is exactly what I am saying. The Spirit gave illumination to what was hidden before. I desire to always be open to what He might be saying even if it comes against what I have been taught. I become foolish to become wise. But my heart in all of it is to stress as you have explained brilliantly that we would be lead by the Author of Scripture. And we would teach others that THEY can know Him as well. Even if they don’t know Greek and Hebrew, etc. We honor the past, but we remain open to Him.
Bless you my friend.
Bless you my friend.
When people write in allegory and/or read into a text, I’ve seen it called taking things out of context. What the writers did would more than likely in some circles today be called taking things out of context. I’ve seen people ridicule revelations of Scripture from people that are based on allegory. And reading into a text. To the Jews, the learned theologians of their day, the writers were taking things out of context. Jews today still use that argument.
I’m not reversing, I am saying if we are inflexible because of past traditions to what the Spirit is speaking we could see things out of context. He knows how to use His Book. He is OUR Teacher.
And I am not saying learned men are not lead by the Spirit. That would be silly, but I am saying being lead by Him is most important. It is by His Spirit we are transformed. As you said spiritual things are spiritually discerned. And spiritual things are foolishness to the natural mind. We must be open to being taught to be taught. Paul says let those who think they are wise realize they are fools, he says he didn’t use words of wisdom, he says God loves to use the foolish things to confound the wise.
I’m not reversing, I am saying if we are inflexible because of past traditions to what the Spirit is speaking we could see things out of context. He knows how to use His Book. He is OUR Teacher.
And I am not saying learned men are not lead by the Spirit. That would be silly, but I am saying being lead by Him is most important. It is by His Spirit we are transformed. As you said spiritual things are spiritually discerned. And spiritual things are foolishness to the natural mind. We must be open to being taught to be taught. Paul says let those who think they are wise realize they are fools, he says he didn’t use words of wisdom, he says God loves to use the foolish things to confound the wise.
Allegory is not taking things out of context. Allegory exists in the Bible. Just read the Prodigal Son in Luke 15, or another really strong allegory is where Paul writes about Abraham, Sarah and Hagar in Galatians 4. He compares Hagar to the law and Mt Sinai, and Sarah is free and is Jerusalem. That is pure allegory.
Perhaps you are talking about allergorical interpretation? That was very popular in the early history of the church. It really doesn’t have a lot of ground to stand on.
Context means, “what is around it.” So, what do the verses surrounding it mean, the paragraphs, the chapter and the book. How does it compare to other similar passages, either in the OT or NT. And what is the background? Things written before Moses need a bit of a different look than the late NT. Although of course, the message of Jesus is there from Genesis to Revelation .
Allegory is not common these days. What is common, is taking a verse portion, like Isa. 53:5d, and making a whole doctrine out of it. Without reading the surrounding verses, what Isaiah itself is all about. Which is deliverance from sin! Not sickness. And then look at the NT verses, and see the only 2 references have to do with Jesus ministry, and “sin sickness.” Or facts like - how did the LXX translate Isa. 53:5d. Well, the passage is about sin, and how sinful Israel and how the Messiah would deliver them from sin. Because those translators in the 3rd century BC sure knew Greek and Hebrew a lot better than certain false teachers who have set themselves up as “interpreters” of the Bible, by pulling things out of their proper historical, grammatical context, which means the surrounding verses and chapters.
That is what context means. Now, I do not agree with “allegorical interpretation” either, as practiced in the early church. BUT, that is not pulling things out of context. That is simply a method of interpretation that doesn’t work well.
Here are some words about proper interpretation.
”[FONT="]Interpreting Grammatically[/FONT][FONT="]The historical-critical method assumes that words and expressions have a relatively stable meaning during given periods of history. Therefore, we begin by taking what we can determine as the normal, everyday meaning of the words, phrases, and sentences to the extent possible. In other words, our interpretation must correspond to the words and grammar in the text in a reasonable way. Otherwise, the interpreter could assign meaning of his own without objective control. The Bible would become a horoscope of vague sayings we try to plug into our lives however we are able.[/FONT]
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[h=3]Six Practical Rules[/h][FONT="]These rules will enable you to arrive at a critically sound interpretation. Some of these rules are the outgrowth of a high view of scripture. In other words, the entire Bible is the product of one author (God) at the same time that it is product of many authors. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to seek to find a consistent message throughout the Bible.[/FONT]
”[FONT="]Interpreting Grammatically[/FONT][FONT="]The historical-critical method assumes that words and expressions have a relatively stable meaning during given periods of history. Therefore, we begin by taking what we can determine as the normal, everyday meaning of the words, phrases, and sentences to the extent possible. In other words, our interpretation must correspond to the words and grammar in the text in a reasonable way. Otherwise, the interpreter could assign meaning of his own without objective control. The Bible would become a horoscope of vague sayings we try to plug into our lives however we are able.[/FONT]
- Most of the Bible can be easily interpreted by simply taking the language (either in the original or translation) in the usual way (Jn. 3:36; Acts 1:11). In other words, if the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense.
- A plain sense reading should not be confused with a literalistic interpretation. We should allow for figures of speech (Mk. 1:5; Lk. 22:19).
- If a passage contains symbols or a special literary genre this should be indicated in the text, either by textual cues, or because symbolism is required in order to make sense of the text. Most symbols are explained by the Bible itself (Rev. 1:9-20)
- We are not interested at first in the question, "What does it mean to me?" but rather, "what did it mean to those whom it was originally written?"
- Rev. 2:12,13 - Pergamum was the center of the worship of Aesclepius.
- I Cor. 11:4-6 - Shorn hair was typical of Aphrodite priestess-prostitutes; shaven heads were typical of convicted adulteresses (vs. 5).
- Use Bible dictionaries or other sources to discover customs, money, geography, etc. Then find a corresponding meaning in our culture.
- Good Samaritan (Lk. 10); 2 Denarii (Mk. 6:37); 50,000 Drachma (Acts 19:19)
- Pharisees' teaching on the relationship between illness and sin (Mark 2; John 9:1)
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[h=3]Six Practical Rules[/h][FONT="]These rules will enable you to arrive at a critically sound interpretation. Some of these rules are the outgrowth of a high view of scripture. In other words, the entire Bible is the product of one author (God) at the same time that it is product of many authors. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to seek to find a consistent message throughout the Bible.[/FONT]
- Interpret in light of the context of the passage. Follow the thought development in the book you are reading, and make sure your interpretation flows along with the general direction of argument. Sudden changes in subject are unusual. If you have the thought development of a book centering on one subject, suddenly switching to another, and then back to the first, your interpretation is almost certainly wrong.
Consider the larger context as well: which Testament? which author? what time period? Never view a passage in isolation from its surroundings. The context should be considered the most important kind of evidence in the interpretation of a passage. Usually context supplies all we need to know. We should turn to other explanations only when we can find no critically feasible interpretation based on the English text in context. Anyone who claims to see a break in context bears the full burden of proof.- Mt. 16:28 - Referring to the transfiguration (in context of passage)
- I Cor. 14:34 - Means to disrupt (see I Cor. 11:5 - context of book and passage)
- I Cor. 3:17 (thought development of the passage limits interpretation)
- Interpret in light of progressive revelation (Heb. 1:1,2). While God's purpose for man has never changed, His strategy in accomplishing that purpose has changed. He has dealt with man under different "covenants," or programs. Therefore, it is important to ask "Under which program was this written?." Primary application of the passage will be to the people operating under that program, but not necessarily to others. There may be secondary applications for other programs based on principles which have universal application. Note special problems here in connection with the ministry of Christ before the cross.
- Polygamy was permitted in the Old Testament, but taught against in the New Testament (I Tim. 3:2)
- Theocracy was commanded in Old Testament, but secular government is affirmed in the New Testament. (Rom. 13:1-7; Mt. 22:21; IIChron. 7:14)
- Animal sacrifices, dietary laws, Sabbaths, holy days, festivals, priests and liturgy have all been fulfilled in Christ and are thus obsolete (Col. 2:16,17; Heb. 8).
- Mal. 3:7-12 - in context of the testament (see Num. 18:21-24; Deut. 14:22-29)
- Interpret scripture in harmony with other scripture. Since the Bible is inspired by God, it does not contradict itself. Therefore, never interpret scripture in such a way that it clearly contradicts other scriptures. First discover the allowable range of meaning for a passage, then choose the interpretation that doesn't contradict other scriptures.
- Acts 2:38 could either be referring to baptismal regeneration, or simply adding baptism as a desirable adjunct to the minimum requirement for salvation (i.e. faith).
- Jas. 2:14-26 "justify" can also mean "justify before men."
- Interpret the unclear in light of the clear. Scripture teaches every major, essential truth clearly and many times. Never build a doctrine on an unclear passage.
- Lk. 16:9 is used by Roman Catholics to support indulgences.
- I Cor. 15:29 mentions an obscure, unknown practice used in Corinth. Today the Mormon church uses this passage to elevate dead ancestors to a higher status in the afterlife.
- I John 5:16 The sin unto death is never defined. Don't base a doctrine of falling away on such a passage.
- Interpret the "spirit" of the passage, not necessarily the "letter", or the literalistic meaning, especially when the text is a literary genre prone to figures of speech or colorful statements.
- Proverbs 22:6 The book of Proverbs contains many general maxims, but not all are absolute promises. Not every child will go right, but most will.
- Proverbs 15:1 Not every gentle word will turn away wrath, but in most cases it will.
- I Cor. 11:1-18 - In some New Testament passages interpretation by the "letter" contradicts the "spirit" of the passage (c.f. I Cor. 10:32,33).
- Interpret with dependence upon the Holy Spirit, allowing Him to teach you. Reflect on whether these are True or False. Then check your answers below.
- Proverbs 3:5 "Lean not unto your own understanding" means we should avoid approaching the Bible on a primarily analytical level.
- Since the Bible is "living and active", the interpretation of a passage may be different for different people.
- Unless we approach God's word with a deep reverence for God and a passion to know His will for our lives, we may often get the wrong interpretation.
- If the rules of interpretation give one answer and the Holy Spirit shows another, we should choose the latter.
- We should pray before studying that God will enable us to understand the passage.”
- https://www.xenos.org/essays/grammatical-historical-hermeneutics-lay-readers
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Actually when I read your post about NT writers taking OT writers out of context, I immediately came up with a few examples. However, what happens often when I go back to original context, the NT writer seems to have taken old words that were prophetic, and showed how they were prophetic. It's really cool. Just heard someone proving even Herod and Pontius Pilate were prophetic without meaning to be.
But there is a vast difference between taking old words and revealing them into something larger and fuller, and then just taking words and twisting them.
Let's see what I can make of what you just wrote and turn it into something you never meant it to say, just by deleting parts. And then I ask you, would you want your words used like this?
Meme Cee: (To be clear, this quote is not Cee's thoughts. It's me playing with his words.)
Creepy, ain't it?
Do you really think it's okay to post just parts of what others say without the context?
But there is a vast difference between taking old words and revealing them into something larger and fuller, and then just taking words and twisting them.
Let's see what I can make of what you just wrote and turn it into something you never meant it to say, just by deleting parts. And then I ask you, would you want your words used like this?
Meme Cee: (To be clear, this quote is not Cee's thoughts. It's me playing with his words.)
Creepy, ain't it?
Do you really think it's okay to post just parts of what others say without the context?
In light of all that has been said here about interpretation and context., I'm extremely thankful we each have the Holy Spirit who opens the many different meanings of the Word to us and shows us precious doctrines and teachings no matter what our educational backrounds.
Those who seek Him will for sure find Him. Jesus told us that He would give us His Spirit and He would teach us and lead us into all truth. Thank You Jesus for giving us all we need pertaining to life and Godliness.
John 16:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce and declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future].
And it is then that we are able to worship God in Spirit and in truth. We would not have that promise if we all did not have access to Him. And we do because He is in us and we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise John 4:24-26
[SUP]23 [/SUP]A time will come, however, indeed it is already here, when the true (genuine) worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (reality); for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshipers.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).
Those who seek Him will for sure find Him. Jesus told us that He would give us His Spirit and He would teach us and lead us into all truth. Thank You Jesus for giving us all we need pertaining to life and Godliness.
John 16:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But when He, the Spirit of Truth (the Truth-giving Spirit) comes, He will guide you into all the Truth (the whole, full Truth). For He will not speak His own message [on His own authority]; but He will tell whatever He hears [from the Father; He will give the message that has been given to Him], and He will announce and declare to you the things that are to come [that will happen in the future].
And it is then that we are able to worship God in Spirit and in truth. We would not have that promise if we all did not have access to Him. And we do because He is in us and we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise John 4:24-26
[SUP]23 [/SUP]A time will come, however, indeed it is already here, when the true (genuine) worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth (reality); for the Father is seeking just such people as these as His worshipers.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).
