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Thread: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

  1. #281
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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillG View Post
    Studyman,

    I take that as a no then.
    You quote mostly the same stuff.
    Make quotes.

    You say above "The God you claim to serve"
    Obviously we serve different Gods, if that's not what you are saying if comes across as they because of the words "you claim to serve"

    But when anyone asks you a question you quote the same quotes, post the same verses.
    Yet you have no desire to help anyone understand what you actually mean.

    You posted " we need look no further for our understanding in righteousness, Jesus walked the perfect walk and we are told they if we call him Lord, then we should walk as he walked"

    So I asked does this mean "Sinless?

    I never said you said it. I asked "Is this what you are saying?

    You have shown me nothing, and have answered with nothing.

    In post 231 you say to me "My focus on this forum is to reflect what the Bible teaches, not religious traditions we are warned of over and over again to "Take heed of"

    Then you just post a load of Bible verses

    Yet you do not reflect your thoughts to us.

    How can we understand what your saying if you do not explain your reasoning.

    What does you mean "did he created images of God after the likeness of man? Your quote
    What do you mean "Did he create his own high days and reject Gods? Your quote
    What do you mean " We don't need to create our own salvation, Jesus created it for us"
    What do you mean "We do not need to add or take away from Gods plan"

    Explaining what you are trying to convey would really help
    I have spent hours posting and defining what I have learned and posted it on your behalf.
    "did he created images of God after the likeness of man? Your quote
    What do you mean "Did he create his own high days and reject Gods? Your quote
    What do you mean " We don't need to create our own salvation, Jesus created it for us"
    What do you mean "We do not need to add or take away from Gods plan"
    I don't believe for a second that you don't fully understand these sentences. Or the Biblical fact that Jesus, nor any of His Apostles ever did the things mentioned.

    If you are going to stick to your position that you don't understand this given all I have written on your behalf, I don't know what to say.

    I'm sorry, I just don't believe you.

  2. #282
    Senior Member Hizikyah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    Romans 2:16, “In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.”


    Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”


    Romans 16:25, “Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began.”



    John 6:63, “It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh does not profit at all. The words that I speak to you are Spirit and are life.”


    2 Timothy. 2:8, "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel."


    2 John/Yahanan 1:9, "Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of the Messiah, does not have Yah. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."
    homwardbound likes this.
    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


  3. #283
    Senior Member Hizikyah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    John 13:15, “For I (Jesus) gave you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.”


    Philippians 3:17-18, “Join together in imitating me, brothers, and pay close attention to those who live by the example we have given you. For I have often told you, and now tell you even with tears, that many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.”


    1 Peter 2:21, “This is, in fact, what you were called to do, because Christ also suffered for you and left an example for you to follow in His steps.”


    1 John 1:26, “The one who says that he abides in him must live the same way he (Jesus) himself lived.”


    2 Timothy 1:13-15, "Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. By the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you. You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes.”


    John 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”
    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


  4. #284
    Senior Member 7seasrekeyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcelo View Post
    Brothers and sisters, I just found an interesting article about the differences between the Gospels and the Pauline Epistles:


    the comparisons your site makes between Jesus and Paul are sketchy to say the least since Paul himself said he preached the gospel of Jesus

    reading a number of things from that site, it seems they believe in hyper grace...no repentance necessary...just accept grace...that is not a biblical teaching

    further, they are associated with Les Feldick who appears to teach universal salvation

    I think you could do with more research

    not sure that will help you though, as your purpose seems to be to create a dichotomy with 2 different gospels
    Studyman likes this.

  5. #285
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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    =BillG;3400909
    ]Promote my religious traditions?
    Please expand. What are my religious traditions. Give examples.

    FYI, I have posted many times Eph

    Ephesians 2:8-10
    8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

    You missed out v8. Was that on purpose or a mistake?
    I did a whole thread on Col. 2 which went into great detail into the Chapter. Not sure why you didn't read it, but it's still up if you want to know my take on it.
    So you often quote works that are not in keeping with repentance, like depart from me you workers of iniquity.

    What to you are works worthy of repentance.

    You are correct we all have works,
    As I have said countless times, God's works are "Good" man's works are a filthy rag. I still believe this to be true.

    Ephesians 2:10
    10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

    What are these good works?
    I asked you the same question.

    The question would be, would God's Words and instructions be "Good" works He created beforehand that we should walk in them, or would religious traditions created by man centuries ago be "good" works that we should "walk in them".

    This Bible says God created the "works", not man, that we should walk in.

    How many of God's Commands does todays mainstream preachers preach, as opposed to the "many" religious traditions they preach?

    Matthew 25:34-40
    34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
    37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

    If we do those then surely we fulfill

    Matthew 22:37-40
    How can I help a hungry man by preaching doctrines that are not "Wrought" of God but of man? Who are the "Brothers" of Christ? Those who transgress the Commandments of God by their own religious traditions, or those who "turn to the God of the Bible"?

    Where do the great High Days of Christianity come from? Where does the Sabbath of todays Christianity come from? How can I help a "brother" of Christ by preaching man made religious traditions that condemned every soul who ever did the same things??


    37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
    So how can I love the Lord your God with all my heart and reject His Sabbaths and follow the Sabbaths created by an ancient Sun Worshipper? How can I claim to "love God" and support a religion that creates images of God after the likeness of some long haired men's hair shampoo model in direct rebellion to the first and greatest Commandment?

    The Mainstream Church of Christ's time did the exact same things all in the name of God and were rejected by Jesus.

    How can I support a religion that does the same things only uses Jesus' Name instead of Gods?

  6. #286
    Senior Member Marcelo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    Quote Originally Posted by 7seasrekeyed View Post
    the comparisons your site makes between Jesus and Paul are sketchy to say the least since Paul himself said he preached the gospel of Jesus

    reading a number of things from that site, it seems they believe in hyper grace...no repentance necessary...just accept grace...that is not a biblical teaching

    further, they are associated with Les Feldick who appears to teach universal salvation

    I think you could do with more research

    not sure that will help you though, as your purpose seems to be to create a dichotomy with 2 different gospels
    I just skimmed through the article and found it interesting. Even if the site is not reliable we can profit from it because they point out differences between Jesus and Paul and we can always filter out the heresies.

  7. #287
    Senior Member Hizikyah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    1 Corinthians 4:15-16, “You may have 10,000 mentors who work for the Messiah, but not many fathers (G3962 patér). For in the Messiah Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. So I urge you to imitate me.”


    Matthew 23:9, “And call no man your father (G3962 patér) on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.”


    begotten” is word #G1080 gennaó: to beget, to bring forth, Original Word: γεννάω, Part of Speech: Verb, Transliteration: gennaó, Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-nah'-o), Short Definition: I beget, bring forth, give birth to, Definition: I beget (of the male), (of the female) I bring forth, give birth to.


    John 13:15, “For I (Jesus) gave you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.”


    Philippians 3:17-18, “Join together in imitating me, brothers, and pay close attention to those who live by the example we have given you. For I have often told you, and now tell you even with tears, that many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.”


    1 Peter 2:21, “This is, in fact, what you were called to do, because Christ also suffered for you and left an example for you to follow in His steps.”


    1 John 1:26, “The one who says that he abides in him must live the same way he (Jesus) himself lived.”


    2 Timothy 1:13-15, "Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. By the Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you. You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes.”


    John 12:48, “He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day.”
    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


  8. #288
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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    perhaps because he enforces Jesus' requirements of 'obedience' to their Maker?
    prove-all likes this.

  9. #289
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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    The question posed in this thread is "Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?"

    How about listing their reasons point by point (please provide your source so the readers can be assured no straw men are being used, thank you), and then countering them.

  10. #290
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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harkins View Post
    The question posed in this thread is "Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?"

    How about listing their reasons point by point (please provide your source so the readers can be assured no straw men are being used, thank you), and then countering them.
    You might want to read this article in Got Questions:

    Question: "Was the Apostle Paul actually a false prophet?"

    Answer:
    The theory that the apostle Paul was a false prophet and not a true follower of Christ is usually put forth by those of the
    Hebrew roots movement persuasion, among others. They believe Christians should submit to the Old Testament Law, but Paul clearly disagrees with them, proclaiming that Christians are no longer under the Mosaic Law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15), but the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39). Rather than submitting to God’s Word, the Hebrew roots movement simply dismisses Paul altogether and claims that Paul was a false apostle and that his writings should not be in the Bible.

    https://www.gotquestions.org/apostle-Paul-false-prophet.html

    So looks like modern Judaizers are the prime culprits, although others attack Paul also.

  11. #291
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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    You might want to read this article in Got Questions:

    Question: "Was the Apostle Paul actually a false prophet?"

    Answer:
    The theory that the apostle Paul was a false prophet and not a true follower of Christ is usually put forth by those of the
    Hebrew roots movement persuasion, among others. They believe Christians should submit to the Old Testament Law, but Paul clearly disagrees with them, proclaiming that Christians are no longer under the Mosaic Law (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15), but the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind…and to love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:37-39). Rather than submitting to God’s Word, the Hebrew roots movement simply dismisses Paul altogether and claims that Paul was a false apostle and that his writings should not be in the Bible.

    https://www.gotquestions.org/apostle-Paul-false-prophet.html

    So looks like modern Judaizers are the prime culprits, although others attack Paul also.
    Er, so gotquestions is your personal appeal to authority for this issue?

    I was suggesting actually going to one of the sites, or perhaps the most popular of them, and running through their arguments on a point by point basis.

    This would suit the thread topic better than simply ignoring whatever points they have and simply pointing fingers as to who dismisses Paul. Surely the people who distrust and/or dismiss Paul have reasons beyond "I belong to Hebrew roots".

  12. #292
    Senior Member lightbearer's Avatar
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    Smile Good morning sir

    Quote Originally Posted by BillG View Post
    Although I'm not sure you got my question.

    Who gave the 613?

    It was my response to Studyman.

    Post 271. Did you read it?
    Yes. Did I miss something Bill? GOD gave the Mitzvot. Each one of the Laws in it were taken from that which GOD gave Moses to write in the Book of the Law; Torah. Or mind you the Pentateuch; the first five books of the Bible. In particular that which was penned in the last four.

    This was the point of the post to which you responded. To show everyone that the Laws contained in the Mitzvot were not derived from men but from the Word of GOD.

    If you were aware of this please forgive me. If your question was being asked rhetorically I missed that.
    LORD I believe; help THOU my unbelief! For YOU have given us all things that pertain to Life and godliness through Jesus Christ.

  13. #293
    Senior Member Marcelo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcelo View Post
    If you google Paul false apostle you'll get hundreds of thousands of results. Of course, not all results contain opinions against Paul, but I estimate that at least half of them state that he departed from the true gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    There are also those who don't go to the extreme of calling Paul a false apostle, but regard him as "not completely reliable".

    Is there any reason for us to think that Paul's authority is questionable?
    FINAL ANSWER: They call Paul a false apostle because he was used by the Lord Jesus to announce our freedom from the law of Moses.
    Grandpa and star like this.

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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcelo View Post
    FINAL ANSWER: They call Paul a false apostle because he was used by the Lord Jesus to announce our freedom from the law of Moses.
    Hebrews 7:18-19
    18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
    19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

    Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

    Galatians 3:2-3
    2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

    Galatians 3:24-25
    24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

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    Senior Member notuptome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcelo View Post
    FINAL ANSWER: They call Paul a false apostle because he was used by the Lord Jesus to announce our freedom from the law of Moses.
    First the apostles and the disciples and now we Gentiles. You cannot find a single apostle who did not preach freedom from the condemnation of the law of Moses by grace through faith.

    I hope it is the same message you teach and share with the lost souls you encounter everyday.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
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    The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass
    use it to examine yourself not others.

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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    It is beyond me how people get so lost in the law. If you can read then it's all self explanatory. People must read a verse and not read anything the comes before or after that verse. Its like they use one sentence to explain the entire chapter instead of using the chapter to explain a verse. So frustrating...............

  17. #297
    Senior Member Marcelo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    Without the knowledge provided by this video, we'll never understand the New Testament.

    <strong><font size="5">



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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcelo View Post
    Without the knowledge provided by this video, we'll never understand the New Testament.



    .......Oh! I thought it was The Holy Spirit I needed!

  19. #299
    Senior Member Marcelo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy-Pevensie View Post
    .......Oh! I thought it was The Holy Spirit I needed!
    I know many people who have the Holy Spirit and don't understand the differences between the teachings of the earthly Jesus and those of the risen Jesus.
    homwardbound and FlyingDove like this.

  20. #300
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    Default Re: Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcelo View Post
    I know many people who have the Holy Spirit and don't understand the differences between the teachings of the earthly Jesus and those of the risen Jesus.
    Between the dead Christ and the Risen Christ is a major difference. For new life is offered in the Risen Christ, not the dead Christ.

    For the dead one is for reconciliation and today is done once by Son for us to be forgiven in from Father for new life to be given in be.leif to see
    Thank You Brother for your post Amen
    Marcelo likes this.

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