God values our free will more than he loves us

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Feb 20, 2016
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#1
I was thinking and I kind of had a revelation.


I think another reason why things like abuse and rape make me so angry, other than concern the people it happens to, is because I feel like I would lose my faith if that happened to me. I often feel guilty for all the blessings I have, knowing there are millions who don't have the same thing. I know I should feel blessed, but I didn't do a thing to deserve anything I have. No one gets to choose where or when they were born. I could just as easily have been an orphan living on the streets in India.


Plus I know no one gets a free pass in life, which often makes me feel like faith is nothing more than hellfire insurance. The only difference between believers and non-believers is that we know where we're going when we die. As for life here, we're on our own. We have to deal with the same random suffering and problems like everyone else. Christians can be some of the nastiest people, and atheists can be some of the kindest people. I've heard it said you can't live a fulfilled life without God, but I beg to differ. There are atheists living fulfilled lives just as there are Christians who lose hope and commit suicide.


And apparently we shouldn't commit suicide not because human life is so fragile and worth protecting. No, apparently we shouldn't commit suicide because we're trying to upstage God. Yeah. All God cares about in this life is that we work for him. Just get more converts. We work for him like slaves and get relief only when we die. Let's stop trying to deny it and tell the gospel as it really is, just hellfire insurance.


I've also pretty much come to the conclusion that God cares about our free will more than he actually loves us. Love has to override free will in certain cases. God never does that. Women have no say in whether or not they conceive, and they can even have a baby through rape. White men have virtually free reign in our society. Brutal patriarchy still exists in the third world. Africa is still suffering despite the trillions of dollars that have been sent to help them over the decades. The sex trade is still ongoing. Sex used for any purpose other than it's original intent destroys lives, yet God still creates us with those drives. People with inclinations toward being gay are forced to live celibate lives. People like me will never have the status and privileges that married people do simply because we're single. I could go on and on...


But I don't have to to prove my case, that God values our free will more than he actually loves us. Jesus's sacrifice was only so we could be in heaven with him when we die.


But hey. Life isn't fair. Why should I expect God to be?


And don't tell me it's because of sinful people. That's no longer an excuse to me.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#2
No offence, but...not hardly in my view!
 

Silverwings

Senior Member
Jul 27, 2016
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#4
Yeah. All God cares about in this life is that we work for him. Just get more converts. We work for him like slaves and get relief only when we die. Let's stop trying to deny it and tell the gospel as it really is, just hellfire insurance.
Wow, just wow!! Amazing.............coming from a Christian? Man I am dumbfounded. I sincerely do not think that you have met the same God that I have come to know. If that is all the Christ means to you, you are seriously lacking. I find it an honor to even be counted in that number , and consider myself as a slave.............Oh no, I consider myself a daughter of the Most High God, highly favored, and greatly desired, it is my greatest honor in life to be able to speak to someone about my Father, I would never in a million years speak like you just did.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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#5
I was thinking and I kind of had a revelation

Not sure it was a revelation as much as a exercising the freedom given to you to hold to your own will.

I think another reason why things like abuse and rape make me so angry, other than concern the people it happens to, is because I feel like I would lose my faith if that happened to me. I often feel guilty for all the blessings I have, knowing there are millions who don't have the same thing. I know I should feel blessed, but I didn't do a thing to deserve anything I have. No one gets to choose where or when they were born. I could just as easily have been an orphan living on the streets in India.
Or the orphan in India could just as easily have not been abandoned.

Plus I know no one gets a free pass in life, which often makes me feel like faith is nothing more than hellfire insurance. The only difference between believers and non-believers is that we know where we're going when we die. As for life here, we're on our own. We have to deal with the same random suffering and problems like everyone else. Christians can be some of the nastiest people, and atheists can be some of the kindest people. I've heard it said you can't live a fulfilled life without God, but I beg to differ. There are atheists living fulfilled lives just as there are Christians who lose hope and commit suicide.
Everything in this world, the best and the worst, will be as nothing.

And apparently we shouldn't commit suicide not because human life is so fragile and worth protecting. No, apparently we shouldn't commit suicide because we're trying to upstage God. Yeah. All God cares about in this life is that we work for him. Just get more converts. We work for him like slaves and get relief only when we die. Let's stop trying to deny it and tell the gospel as it really is, just hellfire insurance.
You might see saving souls as work, but God's rest can only found in the gospel that "It is finished."

I've also pretty much come to the conclusion that God cares about our free will more than he actually loves us. Love has to override free will in certain cases. God never does that. Women have no say in whether or not they conceive, and they can even have a baby through rape. White men have virtually free reign in our society. Brutal patriarchy still exists in the third world. Africa is still suffering despite the trillions of dollars that have been sent to help them over the decades. The sex trade is still ongoing. Sex used for any purpose other than it's original intent destroys lives, yet God still creates us with those drives. People with inclinations toward being gay are forced to live celibate lives. People like me will never have the status and privileges that married people do simply because we're single. I could go on and on...

What does it take to defer your own will to another? Whatever that might be, it is not pride, especially if One is indeed sovereign.


But I don't have to to prove my case, that God values our free will more than he actually loves us. Jesus's sacrifice was only so we could be in heaven with him when we die.
What greater love might there be but to defer to whom one loves more than one's own will?

But hey. Life isn't fair. Why should I expect God to be?
Can you be more specific on the definition of 'fair'? And exactly how it was God that actually'dropped that ball'?


And don't tell me it's because of sinful people. That's no longer an excuse to me.
Okay, fine, I won't tell you, but... such a great love given does tend to cause those to which it is given to be filled with pride.
 
Feb 20, 2016
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#6
Maybe some Christians go through extended dry spells. Maybe they try everything they can to connect to God yet nothing comes of it. Maybe they're tired of trying to fight bad thoughts when they have no fight left in them and end up feeling like Satan's punching bag.
 

Silverwings

Senior Member
Jul 27, 2016
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#7
apparently we shouldn't commit suicide because we're trying to upstage God.
Upstage God, really? The term upstage means: divert attention from (someone) toward oneself; outshine:
"they were totally upstaged by their costar in the film"
synonyms: outshine · outclass · eclipse · overshadow · trump ·

I highly doubt this is possible!!

Someone who commits suicide has temporarily lost all hope of things ever getting any better, and I think that Satan desires to take any or all of us out, thru any means possible, because we are created in the image of God, and he hates us with a burning passion. I do not believe for a minute that anyone considering this has any thought of upstaging God, and I for sure do not believe this to be at all possible, anyway.
 

Silverwings

Senior Member
Jul 27, 2016
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#8
Yes, all Christians go thru dry spells, some extended, and there are times that God seems to be a million miles away, but this is when faith is really put to the test. When you feel you have no fight left in you, is when you need to trust God the most. Life is easy when you are up on the mountain, but it is in the valley of trials and temptations that we grow. The bad thoughts will go away by simply rebuking them in the name of Jesus, they will come back ......lust like a spoiled child, but if you persist, and do not give up, you will win the victory, again and again, and there will come a time when you are not plagued so much, one the enemy knows that you really mean business, he will leave you alone, for the most part.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#9
First, the concept of “free will” is not found in the Bible, the way you mean it. God is sovereign. Maybe you could read the Bible with that concept in mind. The sovereignty of God! (My personal theory is this whole free will stuff comes out of the American dream, but that is another thread!)

Second, you have not used a single Bible verse in your OP. Like someone “planted” an idea in your head, and you never stopped to check what the Bible says, you just ran with this so-called revelation in your own mind. My thought is that you probably have never read the Bible through, to come up with this kind of nonsense.

Third, the Bible is clear God loves us, because Jesus was sent to die on the cross in our place. He died for our sin.

“For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him.” John 3:16-17[FONT=&quot]
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Finally, the essence of who God is, is love!

God is love.” 1 John 4:8,16

God is not any imaginary “free will!” The words are not even found in the Bible. Go to Biblegateway.com and put “freewill” in for any translation, and you will not find it.

So I am sorry to burst your bubble, and welcome to CC!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#12
But I don't have to to prove my case, that God values our free will more than he actually loves us. Jesus's sacrifice was only so we could be in heaven with him when we die.


But hey. Life isn't fair. Why should I expect God to be?


And don't tell me it's because of sinful people. That's no longer an excuse to me
'because of sinful people' is just what you are saying, though. That's free will. Free to do evil. It's the consequence - and you know how much humans love what they call freedom

There are two things that come to mind that I didn't seeing the OP. A sense of the scale of time, and a deference to how God defines things. See, you've done two things, you've neglected to compare the fleeting instant that's our own lives on earth with eternal life, and you've assumed you are a better judge of what 'goodness' and 'love' are than God is, you, judging these things from within the momentary poof that's your life here, vs He, outside of time, the creator of time, knowing all of and the before time and the after time.

I always figure, if I conclude Hod is evil, I'm wrong. I missed something or totally misunderstood something. You haven't done that. You figure He's wrong, and you're right.

Maybe if some people love doing evil, loving them is letting them do it on their way to their inevitable end. Most evil I have seen could be a lot more evil than it is, so I figure I have observed evidence that there is a Restrainer.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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#13
HistoryPrincess,

I think maybe you are a bit angry with God? It's ok because you aren't the first. God has dealt with this before.
Have a look at Psalm 73 and Jeremiah 12. Why does the way of the wicked prosper?
Just don't stop communicating with him in prayer. Don't get so angry that you won't talk to him.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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#14
BTW don't agree that God values our free will more than he loves us. He values our free will BECAUSE he loves us.
He is making sons not slaves.
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
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#15
Maybe some Christians go through extended dry spells. Maybe they try everything they can to connect to God yet nothing comes of it. Maybe they're tired of trying to fight bad thoughts when they have no fight left in them and end up feeling like Satan's punching bag.

Yes HistoryPrincess., That's exactly where the devil wants to take us.,into hopelessness. When we are temporarily blinded by the things in this life (including our own emotions and reasoning power) we are left without hope.

Feelings are not facts they are just feelings that come and go depending on many factors because we are human. Often times it takes an understanding of this about ourselves. Jesus does not condemn us for our feelings and weaknesses.,He understands them. He died for all those rotten feelings and misunderstandings and short sightedness and limitations of ours.

Proverbs 13:12 says that when hope is deferred the heart gets sick. It can actually make us physically sick as well.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but when the desire is fulfilled, it is a tree of life.


The enemy knows if we feel hopeless he can attack during our vulnerability and tempt us to do stupid things. Know you are human and humans do have feelings of hopelessness, it happens and Jesus understands this about us.


But that is why the apostle Paul prayed for the believers that "the GOD OF HOPE" would fill them with joy. Many believers don't experience the God of hope for lack of understanding. Romans 15:13

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, in the power of the Holy Spirit.


If you have Jesus Christ you have every reason for every hope. And He will not and has not left you hopeless. If you are a believer you have the Holy Spirit in you who will comfort.,strengthen and help you at these times. He will convict you of your righteousness in Christ., and point you to Jesus and who you are IN Jesus. You will be filled with the hope needed. It does take a reckoning to digest this truth.

Once we begin to realize this is part of the battle us believers are in it is not shocking to us as if some strange thing had happened to us. But to believe by faith what we cannot see or feel,., Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance (the confirmation, [SUP][a][/SUP]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].

That's the battle.., faith is hoping and then believing in the things that are not seen.



It's very encouraging to know that even when you feel horrible and so unworthy that He loves you just as much as when you were feeling amazing and wonderfully worthy. We exercise this truth in our minds and hearts by faith.


God wants us to know that in every situation we are His in Christ. His love for us remains the same because of the gift Jesus gave us. We have Jesus righteousness on and in us so we are loved and accepted and not condemned as the enemy keeps trying to insert into our minds and hearts. We are loved and accepted no matter how we "feel"

Often times our emotions and feelings are not to be taken very seriously and instead we remember the promises above any feelings we might have any give day. With God's love and grace (unmerited undeserved favor) we will have confidence (by faith) that He loves us regardless of our outward man., He sees us in Christ at all times. That is where we get the confidence. Faith in Jesus and what He has done in and for us.

Faith is the gift we were also given and the Holy Spirit will minister to our spirit that we are the sons of God. At at times just waiting it out by faith is needed. Even in the mess we can have hope in God even when we don't "feel" it. The more we exercise this faith the easier it will be the next time those hopeless feelings come (and they will) because we are human.


[SUP]3 [/SUP]Moreover [let us also be full of joy now!] let us exult and triumph in our troubles and rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that pressure and affliction and hardship produce patient and unswerving endurance.
[SUP]
4 [/SUP]And endurance (fortitude) develops maturity of [SUP][a][/SUP]character (approved faith and [SUP][b][/SUP]tried integrity). And character [of this sort] produces [the habit of] [SUP][c][/SUP]joyful and confident hope of eternal salvation.
[SUP]
5 [/SUP]Such hope never disappoints or deludes or shames us, for God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit Who has been given to us.
[SUP]
6 [/SUP]While we were yet in weakness [powerless to help ourselves], at the fitting time Christ died for (in behalf of) the ungodly.






 
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stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Walk trough the valley
#16
I could tell you were young before I looked at your age, and I could tell your angry, but am referring to anger turned inward as depression. Normal to face pain at your age but don't wait until your mid life crisis to deal with it. Few are wise and learn of the Lord and have rest. God has taken the blame for His creation, so you can stay on speaking terms with Him while you place the blame on Him. There was no other way for us to Learn to Love. You said that God Loves his bride more than He loves us. I would have to agree, the more we draw near to Him out of free will the more He draws near to us. Tel me if Jesus left us His will as our inheritance, does that mean he no longer has a free will of His own. "I can do nothing of myself but what I see the Father doing." Apparently He doesn't know exactly when He is coming back as He intercedes for us and may not know when His bride is ready. I suspect you have to think this trough.

But I think your right you should be ashamed or at least embarrassed that you did not have the opportunity to suffer and now are afraid to, how will you learn to suffer with Him when the time comes, actually it's a trick question we have sufficient Grace as long as we don't get offended.

Had only red the first paragraph and the last two lines until now; sorry that you may be offended already and nothing has happened to deserve you to be offended. I will not try to help because I know I can't. We have to accept our limitation and neither does God need my help. Your here to grow in Love just like I am. You can't afford to be offended: if you spend your income on that: garbage in garbage out. Sorry for trying to help, we are slow learners. How about I forgive all your anger and take the blame to God and let you go free to start over and well call it even, and I wont try to help anymore. May you have sufficient Grace to get up and go on. May you have boldness to ask God for help, by His Spirit to get up to a new life. There will be a time of trouble such as never was and a falling away, and at that time shall everyone be delivered that is found written in the book of Life. May you learn of Him to walk in Love. Your brother in Christ Ray.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#17
I've also pretty much come to the conclusion that God cares about our free will more than he actually loves us. Love has to override free will in certain cases. God never does that. Women have no say in whether or not they conceive, and they can even have a baby through rape. White men have virtually free reign in our society. Brutal patriarchy still exists in the third world. Africa is still suffering despite the trillions of dollars that have been sent to help them over the decades. The sex trade is still ongoing. Sex used for any purpose other than it's original intent destroys lives, yet God still creates us with those drives. People with inclinations toward being gay are forced to live celibate lives. People like me will never have the status and privileges that married people do simply because we're single. I could go on and on...

But I don't have to to prove my case, that God values our free will more than he actually loves us. Jesus's sacrifice was only so we could be in heaven with him when we die.


But hey. Life isn't fair. Why should I expect God to be?


And don't tell me it's because of sinful people. That's no longer an excuse to me.
Is it because people are righteous?

It is because God corrupted the first creation because they performed the will of another who had taken on the form of a creature. .

Its was not because of righteous people but those that are called sinners . He informs us if any man say he has not sinned .They make God out to be the liar.

God promises tribulation in this world. The wrath is being revealed by looking at all of the laws of God that are being changed picking up speed..It depends on whether a person believes God or continues in unbelief (no faith)

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.Rom 1:18

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.Rom 1:24-27

One thing I have learned is that doubt is not the opposite of faith . Unbelief, no faith, as that which comes from hearing God is the opposite .

The accuser of the brethren accuses all believers night and day before God. It is shown by the wrath reveled from heaven .and if any man say he has not sinned it makes God out to be the liar.

No guarantees according to the flesh all die not receiving the promise we walk by faith until the end. This show us we have a living confidence working in us not of our own self.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

That confidence that comes from a imputed work of God is according to His work of faith or three day labor of His love working in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

It is the free will (a new will) of a believer as the kind of food the disciples at first did not know of.Our daily bread . Freely he gave freely we have received freedom from the bondage of sin that are men are born of. .

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work. (free will)

As far as the sexual revolution it’s been going on since day one.It the one thing that people do not learn about history in so much that it repeats itself because the desire coming from these bodies of death tosin .

The rise and fall of every government to include marriage . Which today can mean what ever a person deems it to be.

What is happening today as to removing all discrimination is not new .In that way nothing is new under the sun .

We should be more careful when changing laws that make it easier to sin against a Holy God. Foolishness rushes in where Christians should never enter.

Seeing we do not wrestle against flesh and blood . The heart of our government which is in the hand of the Lord reflects the mind and spirit of the people. It makes me wonder that when he does come on the last day will he find his faith working in the heart of man ?

Where there is no law as discrimination, there is no trespass, It become a free will for all. Just find a good hiding place. As those come out of the closet it would seem the Christian are driven in. If so how will the gospel get out and change lives giving men the free will that comes from doing His will as he does work in us to both will and do His good pleasure.?
 
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OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
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#18
I was thinking and I kind of had a revelation.


I think another reason why things like abuse and rape make me so angry, other than concern the people it happens to, is because I feel like I would lose my faith if that happened to me. I often feel guilty for all the blessings I have, knowing there are millions who don't have the same thing. I know I should feel blessed, but I didn't do a thing to deserve anything I have. No one gets to choose where or when they were born. I could just as easily have been an orphan living on the streets in India.


Plus I know no one gets a free pass in life, which often makes me feel like faith is nothing more than hellfire insurance. The only difference between believers and non-believers is that we know where we're going when we die. As for life here, we're on our own. We have to deal with the same random suffering and problems like everyone else. Christians can be some of the nastiest people, and atheists can be some of the kindest people. I've heard it said you can't live a fulfilled life without God, but I beg to differ. There are atheists living fulfilled lives just as there are Christians who lose hope and commit suicide.


And apparently we shouldn't commit suicide not because human life is so fragile and worth protecting. No, apparently we shouldn't commit suicide because we're trying to upstage God. Yeah. All God cares about in this life is that we work for him. Just get more converts. We work for him like slaves and get relief only when we die. Let's stop trying to deny it and tell the gospel as it really is, just hellfire insurance.


I've also pretty much come to the conclusion that God cares about our free will more than he actually loves us. Love has to override free will in certain cases. God never does that. Women have no say in whether or not they conceive, and they can even have a baby through rape. White men have virtually free reign in our society. Brutal patriarchy still exists in the third world. Africa is still suffering despite the trillions of dollars that have been sent to help them over the decades. The sex trade is still ongoing. Sex used for any purpose other than it's original intent destroys lives, yet God still creates us with those drives. People with inclinations toward being gay are forced to live celibate lives. People like me will never have the status and privileges that married people do simply because we're single. I could go on and on...


But I don't have to to prove my case, that God values our free will more than he actually loves us. Jesus's sacrifice was only so we could be in heaven with him when we die.


But hey. Life isn't fair. Why should I expect God to be?


And don't tell me it's because of sinful people. That's no longer an excuse to me.
Life is a test. God allows the wheat (good people) to grow with the weeds (bad people) until the harvest (Judgement Day). He knows we will be tempted and persecuted- that’s the test- to see if we remain loving and kind, and faithful to Him. God shows no favoritism. Why should He favor us over His one and only Son? Jesus is to bear the cross alone? No, we must bear ours too. Did Jesus pass the test? As they tortured Him He said “Father please forgive them.” He passed with flying colors.

This short 100 year life is our only chance to work for God and to pass His tests for all eternity. A test that you are not passing with your current attitude. It’s not until pressure is applied that who we are within is reveaveled. If you squeeze a lemon you’ll reveal the sourness within. If you squeeze an orange you’ll get sweetness. And no one was sweeter than Jesus. Can you imagine Him having your attitude on the cross? No one would be saved. Take on the attitude of Christ, and don’t give up my friend. Because as evil as this world is, heaven is still going to be worth it. Besides, what’s your only other option than to be grouped with those evil ones for all eternity?

“No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind can conceive what God has prepared for those who love Him.”
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#19
Pardon? Care to explain?
Because the love of God and outbounding grace of God superceeds our sin in the fact that he sacrificed his only begotten righteous eternal Son to pay the entire sin debt of the whole world.......John said it best....WHAT MANNER OF LOVE HAS THE FATHER BESTOWED UPON US THAT WE SHOULD BE CALLED THE SONS OF GOD. It also states that GOD IS LOVE<---the "be" verb is shows state of being and the fact he put this plan in action before the world was even cast down proves that his love for us overrides everything......and concerning our "free will".....it is but a by product of human emotion and condition that allows us to love God in return........to me this is proven in three statements concerning men...

a. The heart is set left of center....Jeremiah states it is deceitfully wicked and who can know it
b. The wicked go astray from the womb
c. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God

It is our natural state to walk contrary and BY DEFAULT NOT CHOOSE GOD, BUT RATHER THAT WHICH IS EVIL.......See Romans and our natural condition!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#20
BTW don't agree that God values our free will more than he loves us. He values our free will BECAUSE he loves us.
He is making sons not slaves.
Amen, He loves and desires a relationship with us. You can not have a relationship with people who can not chose. How can they learn to trust you when they have no ability to chose to go against your will and try to do it themselves. If there is no free will. There is no relationship. Period.

People say free will is not a concept found in scripture. That is plain wrong, free will is found all over scripture. From the garden (chose to not eat of this tree and you will live, chose to eat of it and you will die) to cain and abel having to chose what offering they will give God. To Noah having to chose to build an ark. To abraham having to chose to trust God. I can go on and on and on.