The Three kINGS - dID YOU kNOW?

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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,196
6,509
113
#1
Most of us know tomorrow is what the RCC calls Epiphany, or the day of the Kings.

There are not three kings mentioned in the Word. As a matter of fact, the number of men
bearing gifst to our Beloved Lord is not mentioned anywhere.

Now the only references I have ever heard are wise men from the east and/or astrologers fromthe ease.

I tend to believe it was astrologers, but not thoe you see today with their zodiac and trines, and conjunctions etc.

From what I have gleaned fromt he Word they must have been astrologers according to the Word, using the planets and teh stars strictly to foretell the seasons andon occasion to interpret signs from God through them. This latter I believe because these men from the east bearing gifts for the newborn King mention tha they saw "His Star." For me this also squelches any thinking by nonblievers that the Star of Bethleham was nything other than a star,, not a comet, and not anything else but what God says it is, was.

So tomorrow the celebration, for sme anyways, is not of kings or three men, but of wise men from the east seeking to see our blessed King and bear Him gifts, and for me, this is amazing and wonderful.
Oh, it is also obvious those men did not arrive on epiphany since that is sthe day Jesus was presented, not in the manger, but in Jerusalem.......hmmmmmmm?

May all be blessed in Jesus Christ. What I have posted does not deal with any "truth" necessary for salvation, but it does demonstrate the influenc e of the Roman church over the Protestant churches..........and this is but the tip of the denominational iceberg.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,764
113
#2
There are not three kings mentioned in the Word. As a matter of fact, the number of men
bearing gifts to our Beloved Lord is not mentioned anywhere.
While it is true that neither "three" nor "kings" is mentioned in Scripture, a good case could be made that since three VERY COSTLY GIFTS ARE MENTIONED, and there was more than one wise man (magus) who came, that there were three men with three different gifts. And because the gifts were worth a king's ransom for that time, they must have been very wealthy magoi.

It is also possible that these men may have originally been pagan astrologers but became proselytes and believed on the one true God. Hence they became astronomers, and gave up astrology. The fact that they knew the Hebrew Scriptures and inquired specifically about the one who was to be born King of the Jews means that God was giving them revelations, and then directing them through that supernatural star of Bethlehem.

It has been postulated that they were Nabateans, but they could well have been Arabians or Persians.
 
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JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,196
6,509
113
#3
Do not change the intent of mypost. My mention of astrologers in strictly in reference to what is said the stars and the plantets are for in the Old Testament.

The fact the men were waiting for the King of kings to be born tells me they were not pagans, but you may think this if you wish.

As for the three gifts, this si the argument put forth by the RCC.

Pleae do not work more to change the veracity of my post, it is self declared that the content is not paramount for salvation, but it does show how the denominations are all affected by the erroneous determinations of men.

All we need know is Christ crucified for our sings and His Gospel.........the rest is window dressing.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
111
63
#4
Most of us know tomorrow is what the RCC calls Epiphany, or the day of the Kings.

There are not three kings mentioned in the Word. As a matter of fact, the number of men
bearing gifst to our Beloved Lord is not mentioned anywhere.

Now the only references I have ever heard are wise men from the east and/or astrologers fromthe ease.

I tend to believe it was astrologers, but not thoe you see today with their zodiac and trines, and conjunctions etc.

From what I have gleaned fromt he Word they must have been astrologers according to the Word, using the planets and teh stars strictly to foretell the seasons andon occasion to interpret signs from God through them. This latter I believe because these men from the east bearing gifts for the newborn King mention tha they saw "His Star." For me this also squelches any thinking by nonblievers that the Star of Bethleham was nything other than a star,, not a comet, and not anything else but what God says it is, was.

So tomorrow the celebration, for sme anyways, is not of kings or three men, but of wise men from the east seeking to see our blessed King and bear Him gifts, and for me, this is amazing and wonderful.
Oh, it is also obvious those men did not arrive on epiphany since that is sthe day Jesus was presented, not in the manger, but in Jerusalem.......hmmmmmmm?

May all be blessed in Jesus Christ. What I have posted does not deal with any "truth" necessary for salvation, but it does demonstrate the influenc e of the Roman church over the Protestant churches..........and this is but the tip of the denominational iceberg.
Brother JaumeJ,

The best explanation that I heard was that the wise men had the writings of Daniel and others. They calculated the 70 weeks of Daniel and arrived at the time of Jesus' birth.

They were obviously Jehovah worshipers and believed the scriptures. They were true believers in the Messiah.

--

The true nature of the universe was not known at that time, so planets were called wandering stars for example. The star moved because the wise men followed it.

Some questions would be,

When did the wise men first realize that the star would appear? Maybe they didn't even comprehend that the star was in the scriptures, until after they had left on their journey and noticed it, having calculated the time by the 70 weeks. I'm not sure that they were astrologers, astronomers probably.

How is it that the star appeared to hang over Bethlehem?

Will the star return on another orbit around the sun?

Will the stone return, and strike the planet, destroying it, after Jesus comes for the kingdom? The stone strikes the statue?

It is called, His star, is it the stone cut from a mountain without human hands, that destroys the statue, and then the judgment?

Just a few thoughts to think about.

There is not much time left now.

May you have a day full of blessings.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,196
6,509
113
#5
It must have been some star to hang over Bethleham and shine so directly as to lead the men from the east do the manger.....

A¨s for the nature of the universe, this would be the nature given it by our Father. i do believe He spoke it into existence, and I do believe the nature it has, He designed from the bottom up and side to side.

As for prophecy, I understand that when our Lord returns the first or one of the first things He will do is to destroy the destoyers.

Whether the planets were called wandering stars or panets is quite sukperfluous in regards to their functions.

You know I used to have long talks with af friend who was a doctor in astrophysics. This was back in the 1960's. One day we were talking about the universe, and because of the faith given me, I boldly informed him that the more man learns of the univers,the larger it will be. This was based on the believe that the Creator of all that is is not about to allow anyon creature to understand just how everything is, first it is not necessary, and second, the gift of faith fills all the necessary need for mortar in understanding.

As it turns out, sometime in the mid d1990's a theory became known saying that there is not just one universe but many; now juist how large could that be I ask?

Did you know that so-called big boom theory is mentioned in passing in the Word? There is mention also of the circle of the earth in the Old testament. Now maybe they thought it was like a frisbee, but I believe they knew the earth was round. Oh, and have you ever given anythought to the land masses? At eleven I could see by looking at a map of the world that they all seemed to fit together, and later, when reading about Babel it seemed to dit right in, at least for me, that when the languages were confused so were the lands, from one mass to many.......but this is only becaue I see itso by faith.

The dtratigraphy of western Africa and easter South America fit, the same rock dfrom the same times. And so it goes in all plces wehre land masses are drawn together. The White Cliffs of Dover have corresponding stratigraphy across the channel in France.......and so it goes.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,821
8,596
113
#6
This is a classic case of thinking we know a Scripture very well, so we don't study it as we should. Good on the op for addressing it.

The political situation in the Holy Land at this to.e is important to unwrap.
Rome had just recently secured the area after a back and forth struggle with the Parthian empire, where the Magi came from.
In fact, Herod had to spend time in Rome because of the struggle, and then he secured the title "king of the Jews" and was sent back.
With this in mind, the question to him from the Magi takes on greater relevance. "Where is He BORN King of the Jews?" Meaning NOT you Herod, appointed king!
Also, the text says ALL of Jerusalem were troubled.Very unlikely ALL of Jerusalem would have been troubled by 3 dudes on a camel. Their stature and large group may explain why they were granted an audience with Herod.

I love that the 1st recorded mention of worshiping Jesus is from GENTILE believers!

I also agree that it is possible they had some handed down prophecy from Daniel.

Finally, I'm intrigued by the possibility that the "Star" may in fact have been similar to the Shekinah Glory that hovered over the Mercy seat in the Tabernacle, and led the Israelites.

A star may give a general direction, but a very specific location cannot be given by a star light years away.
 
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Feb 7, 2015
22,418
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#7
First of all, this was not just a drive in their Chevy to the next county. They invested at least a half a year in this journey. And carrying that much wealth, you can be sure these rich men traveled in a caravan consisting of many armed fighting men (body guards) because of the constant threat from bandits on those lonely trails, extra camels to carry their tents, clothing, and food, cooks, workers to erect and disassemble the tents, personal servants, men to tend to the many animals, etc.

I highly doubt there were less than a hundred people, in total. Yes, I would say these were serious Believers in the Religion.
 

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
785
157
43
#8
Agree that this group of magi did not travel by their ‘onesies’; but accompanied by a retinue of peeps and animals. They arrive at a house, not a stable. By the time they got there, Jesus would have most likely have been a toddler.

We do not know how many there were; just that there were more than two. The word magus (plural, magi) means a practitioner of magick (it’s the same root word). What one has to keep in mind is that up until relatively recently in human history, there was no difference between astronomy and astrology; they were one in the same science.

I highly doubt they were followers of the Hebrew God; more likely, given their origin, Zoroastrians.

The ‘gifts’ are highly suspect – it’s possible they were a later addition, or added to the narrative due to their highly symbolic meanings.

As many of you probably know, tomorrow is Orthodox Christmas (their liturgical calendar follows the Julian date, not the Gregorian) – in the West, the day was commemorated as Epiphany. It’s also Twelfth Night (remember the song “The Twelve Days of Christmas”?).

Door chalking is still popular in Germany on this day - 20*C+M+B*18

There are multiple theories on what the star may have been - in any event, such an astronomical/astrological phenomenon was obviously very meaningful to this group of men. Since there is no other recorded mention of such an astronomical event (particularly from people like the Egyptians who recorded all sorts of various celestial events), it begs the question of whether or not it really was visible during the day; early dawn and early dusk perhaps.

This link provides an interesting insight to one possibility: Can astronomy explain the biblical Star of Bethlehem?
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#9
Can you imagine how difficult the journey must have been if they mainly traveled at night.... since they were following a star? Maybe they got their bearings from night sightings, and hoped they were going in the right direction when the sun came up, and they could see to travel.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,764
113
#10
The ‘gifts’ are highly suspect – it’s possible they were a later addition, or added to the narrative due to their highly symbolic meanings.
Whatever else you may think about the magi, suggesting that those gifts were "highly suspect" and a "later addition" is total nonsense, and you have no grounds for coming up with this bizarre notion. Both the Textus Receptus and all the critical texts have those gifts listed in Matthew 2:11, and so does every translation of the Bible.

It is one thing to express your opinion about these wise men. It is quite another thing to cast doubt upon the written Word of God.
 

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
785
157
43
#11
My bad - that's "names" not gifts that were the later addition (well, not really addition, but part of folklore) and suspect, although the gifts themselves were very symbolic as well. Gold = royalty, frankincense = deity, myrrh = anointing oil for the dead.

Yeah, most likely reckoning of direction at night, travel by day (although night travel may have been considerably cooler).
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,249
25,719
113
#12
Most of us know tomorrow is what the RCC calls Epiphany, or the day of the Kings...

I tend to believe it was astrologers, but not those you see today with their zodiac and trines, and conjunctions etc.
You know too much :eek: We must burn you at the stake!












j/k! Much love to you, JaumeJ! Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#14
Can you imagine how difficult the journey must have been if they mainly traveled at night.... since they were following a star? Maybe they got their bearings from night sightings, and hoped they were going in the right direction when the sun came up, and they could see to travel.
Or they knew the prophecies passed down from Daniel and actually showed up when Christ was almost 2
 
Feb 28, 2016
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#15
perhaps they were able to witness the super-natural star in the daylight hours...
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
#16

Let's look at the text Matthew 2:1-12 “Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem,2 saying, “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him;4 and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.5 They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it is written by the prophet:


6
“‘And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel.’”


7 Then Herod summoned the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star had appeared.8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, “Go and search diligently for the child, and when you have found him, bring me word, that I too may come and worship him.”9 After listening to the king, they went on their way. And behold, the star that they had seen when it rose went before them until it came to rest over the place where the child was.10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy.11 And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.12 And being warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed to their own country by another way.”

These wise men were from the east, many scholars believe they came from Babylon. This would make sense because Daniel in the Babylon exile was placed over the wise men in Babylon. Daniel 2:47-49

“The king answered Daniel, and said, “Truly your God is the God of gods, the Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, since you could reveal this secret.”48 Then the king promoted Daniel and gave him many great gifts; and he made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief administrator over all the wise men of Babylon.49 Also Daniel petitioned the king, and he set Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego over the affairs of the province of Babylon; but Daniel sat in the gate of the king.

The books of the prophets were in Babylon, Daniel 9:1-2 “In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the lineage of the Medes, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans—2 in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years specified by the word of the Lord through Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.”

There was more then one book of the prophets in Babylon, II Chronicles 36:5-10 “Jehoiakim was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. And he did evil in the sight of the Lord his God.6 Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up against him, and bound him in bronze fetters to carry him off to Babylon.7 Nebuchadnezzar also carried off some of the articles from the house of the Lord to Babylon, and put them in his temple at Babylon.8 Now the rest of the acts of Jehoiakim, the abominations which he did, and what was found against him, indeed they are written in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah. Then Jehoiachin his son reigned in his place.


9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months and ten days. And he did evil in the sight of the Lord.10 At the turn of the year King Nebuchadnezzar summoned him and took him to Babylon, with the costly articles from the house of the Lord, and made Zedekiah, Jehoiakim’s brother, king over Judah and Jerusalem.”

Nebuchadnezzar took with him many things from the Temple of the Lord to Babylon and placed them in his temple, once Daniel made ruler over the
whole province of Babylon, and chief administrator over all the wise men of Babylon, he had access to all of them and he taught all the wise men about his Lord and how to study His word, because that was his habit to read the writtings of the Lord as we see in Daniel 9:2. Daniel would of taught the wisdom of the Lord to the wise men of Babylon. As they studies His word they came across Isaiah 60:1-3
“Arise, shine; for your light has come! And the glory of the Lord is risen upon you.2 For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and deep darkness the people; but the Lord will arise over you, and His glory will be seen upon you.3 The Gentiles shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising.”

The magi seen the Glory of the Lord and they followed it to the birth place of Jesus to offer Him gifts of gold,
frankincense and myrrh. Gold is a sign of diety and many scholars say that the frankincense and myrrh were the spices used in the burial garmants in their raw form, if they are processed they become expensive oils for anointing the body for burial. They could very well produce the oil that Mary used to anoint our Lord.

These magi were studied in the Word of the Lord, they seen His glory and followed it. It is possible that in those 480 plus year that Daniel was not in Babylon anymore that some of the teachings on the coming Messiah could of gotten diluted to the point that they did not understand that the Messiah would be born in
Bethlehem. What I find very interesting is that Daniel had very powerful influance on these magi, because they were still studying the Scriptures that Nebuchadnezzar had brought back to Babylon. Old Nebuchadnezzar had some influance on the magi, in that he brought back to Babylon the information that schooled them into looking for the birth of the Messiah.

The magi believed the Scriptures and followed them, there is no
indication that these magi were wealthy, there is only information that they brought gifts that are worthy of a king. These magi could of been all of the wise men of Babylon that came in this caravan to worship the Messiah, the King of the Jews. These magi were sudents of the Scriptures and once they seen the glory of the Lord in the sky they set out to worship Him.

I am sure that the Lord by the Holy Spirit lead these magi to follow thier hearts to go on this journey to worship the Messiah the Lord.

 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
24,799
8,103
113
#17
We three kings from Orient are
How we wish that we had a car
Gold and spice as presents are nice
But they're too heavy by far!

Ooooooooooh...