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Thread: Understanding the End of Days

  1. #161
    Senior Member Bladerunner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellsworth1943 View Post
    But john is not taken into Heaven until Rev. 4.
    It does not state that this event of Rev.1:13 is in Heaven. The candlesticks are identified as the seven churches in Asia. Present tense. To change the meaning to "the church" changing Scripture and not taking the Scripture literally as you state you do.
    Also to state that the 24 elders resent the body of Christ is just opinion. The Scripture does not identify who they are.

    Brother, you seem to see thing I do not see. I take it literally. I read the words and believe what it says.

    1. John not in Heaven until rev. 4

    2. Candelsticks only represent the present churches of the day in asia. They do not represent the rest of CHurches through today. Changing the meaning of Churches.

    3. the 24 Elders do not represent the Churches(Body of Christ). The Scripture does not identify them.


    Are these the only problems you have with what I had said in Post #155?????? Want to discuss them or had you not take a chance that you beliefs of a post rapture could change.??????? Your Choice?


    1 Cor 15:1-4

    Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    .

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    Senior Member Ahwatukee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    Quote Originally Posted by Bladerunner View Post

    1. John not in Heaven until rev. 4

    2. Candelsticks only represent the present churches of the day in asia. They do not represent the rest of CHurches through today. Changing the meaning of Churches.

    3. the 24 Elders do not represent the Churches(Body of Christ). The Scripture does not identify them.


    Are these the only problems you have with what I had said in Post #155?????? Want to discuss them or had you not take a chance that you beliefs of a post rapture could change.??????? Your Choice?


    Never mind!
    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no account of wrongs. Love takes no pleasure in evil, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

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    Senior Member iamsoandso's Avatar
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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    I have a question though,,,

    In the book of Isaiah 1:26 it is said that he would restore thy judges as at the first,and thy counsellors as at the beginning...

    There's a lot of things that seem very similar to whats going on in the beginnings of Christianity as we know it(to me anyway,lol),,,

    But in Isaiah 4;1, those 7 women who take hold to one man and say "we will eat your bread" (just seems like the seven Churches of Asia to me),are dressed in new apparel(white) and are called by his name(Jesus,Christians),and their reproach is taken away.

    Now but back to where John was earth/heaven,,,had this yet taken place? The elders,the judges the counsellors ect. as said?

    I ask this because if he was seeing one thing present tense on earth and another future tense (Rev, 4) then those things were not yet fulfilled when Revelation was given because the things he states to the Churches were future tense(return to thy first love,,remove thy candlestick,hath an ear hear what... ect.) but all things as if they had not transpired yet. Afterwards though those 144,000, the elders John witnesses ect. are the restored judges and councillors of Isaiah 1:26?

  4. #164
    Member OMEGA777's Avatar
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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    FROM OMEGA TO ALL YOU SINNERS AND SAINTS.

    ALL THIS IS OLD STUFF TO ME AND SO SINCE WE ONLY HAVE SEVEN YEARS LEFT,

    ARMAGEDDON OUT OF HERE IN ORDER TO WORK ON MY OWN SALVATION .

    SEE YOU IN THE KINGDOM. MAY GOD BE IN YOU ALWAYS .

  5. #165
    Senior Member Bladerunner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    Never mind!

    Hi ol Friend....Bet you thought I had changed Eschatology at least for a moment>>>>> Understandable....lol


    Blessing to you and yours,

    Blade
    1 Cor 15:1-4

    Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    .

  6. #166
    Senior Member Ahwatukee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    Quote Originally Posted by Bladerunner View Post
    Hi ol Friend....Bet you thought I had changed Eschatology at least for a moment>>>>> Understandable....lol


    Blessing to you and yours,

    Blade
    Hey there! Yeah, I reread it and realized that you were just listing the other posters beliefs. I suppose it won't be until the church is removed from the earth followed by the revealing of the man of lawlessness and the ensuing wrath of God before they will understand.

    Good to hear that you are not changing your view on things.
    Bladerunner likes this.
    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no account of wrongs. Love takes no pleasure in evil, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    Scripture promises us that we will not see God's wrath. It does NOT give us immunity from satan's wrath. Who is satan persecuting during the trib? Christians will therefore be here during the first half of Daniel's 70th week. The last 3 1/2 yrs is God's wrath on unbeliever's & we are gone, & were promised we would not suffer God's wrath.
    Since the word rapture is resented, or makes us look stupid, lol: When the "harpazo" occurs, we meet Jesus in the clouds, he doesn't come to set foot on earth. He's not on a horse. Everyone doesn't see him. Check your Scripture. Sometime before God's wrath, the " GREAT Tribulation" which is 3 1/2 yrs, (the last 3 1/2 yrs of the "tribulation"), we are harpazoed. So pre trib is not biblical unless u believe the trib is 3 1/2 yrs. & some do.
    The "last trump" is the 100th, & different from God's 7th trump of wrath. (ceremonial).
    There is no evidence to support the trib already happened. There are things that already happened in 70 ad that will happen again agreed, but saying the trib already happened is not supported by looking outside etc. Did the Romans have an army of 200,000?
    Whatever your belief, no offense intended.

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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    Quote Originally Posted by Joseppi View Post
    But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even till the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    And he said, Go your way, Daniel: for the words are closed and sealed till the time of the end.

    None of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
    Daniel 12

    These scriptures reveal when the time of the end has come, that at that time the wise shall know and understand perfectly what the truth is in those times.
    By these scriptures I know that the time of the end has come and that nothing forbids our understanding of the end of days prophecies. As it is now when the knowledge is authorized to be given to all who have faith in Jesus and are wise.

    Are you wise?
    But doesn't everything in our realm have a beginning and end? Even the earth and the sun will eventually burn up. Don't we all have our own "End Time"? What difference does it make if we die of a heart attack and are resurrected (Changed) or if He comes back before we die and we are resurrected (Changed). David said there is no "praising God in death", so we have one life to serve God with. I would say God is no respecter of persons, and that we all must be ready to meet our maker today.

    7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

    I think you will be hard pressed to say Peter didn't have "End Times" or Stephen, or Noah. Certainly the man Jesus had "end times" which mirrored the prophesies.

    Yes, there will be final days, but for the true believer, they have had and will have "End Times" as prophesied and as Jesus said "those who ENDURE till the end (End of our life) will be saved.


    Food for thought.

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    Quote Originally Posted by Studyman View Post
    David said there is no "praising God in death"...
    What David said regarding Sheol before the resurrection of Christ is no longer applicable. We need to rightly divide the word of Truth. All the OT saints are now in the New Jerusalem with God and Christ (Heb 12:22-24), and no doubt praising God, since that is the primary occupation of all those who are in Heaven.

  10. #170
    Ellsworth1943
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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    Quote Originally Posted by Bladerunner View Post

    1. John not in Heaven until rev. 4

    2. Candelsticks only represent the present churches of the day in asia. They do not represent the rest of CHurches through today. Changing the meaning of Churches.

    3. the 24 Elders do not represent the Churches(Body of Christ). The Scripture does not identify them.


    Are these the only problems you have with what I had said in Post #155?????? Want to discuss them or had you not take a chance that you beliefs of a post rapture could change.??????? Your Choice?


    No, my problem is that you as well as others state that you take Rev. literally, but then you start to try and make the Scripture means something else. If you believe it is literal, why not just accept what it says?

    As for as changing my mind, I came to the truth about 40 years ago.
    A "known Bible Scholar" presented a week of lessons on the "Rapture of the Church" at the church I was attending.
    He presented the same arguments for a "Pre-trib rapture of the Church" that you and Ahwat make, almost word for word.
    I had some serious questions, some of the same I have presented here, that he could not answer with Scripture.
    Why does not "last trump" mean last trump? Why do you call the tribulation God's wrath, when Jesus calls it great tribulation? Where do the Tribulation Saints come from? Since there is only one gathering of the Saints, when are the Tribulation Saints gathered?
    This great Bible Scholar quickly labeled me as ignorant, unlearned, and probably lost simply because I questioned his "private interpretation of Scripture" and his authority to instruct others.
    After much study, I came to the conclusion that his teaching could not be supported nor proven by Scripture unless he did as you have done---Change the meaning of words or place meanings on Scripture that are not there.

    Now I have on several occasions tried to see things your way, but I can not take Scripture literally and come to any other conclusion but that the gathering of the Saints comes at the last, seventh trump when Jesus comes.

    So I will ask you to answer the same questions with Scripture proof if you can.
    I would ask Ahwat, but he must have me on ignore. I guess he got tired of me asking him to prove what he was teaching with Scripture.

  11. #171
    Senior Member Zmouth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    Understanding the end of days
    So if one hopes to understand the end of days, then one has to obtain the knowledge of the end of days which is the reward to he that cometh to God. For he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. [See Galatians 6:7]


    "And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith." Deut 32:20

    So where does one obtain wisdom? You might look into Proverbs, verse six, but you didn't hear that from me....
    Last edited by Zmouth; January 13th, 2018 at 09:02 PM.


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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellsworth1943 View Post
    No, my problem is that you as well as others state that you take Rev. literally, but then you start to try and make the Scripture means something else. If you believe it is literal, why not just accept what it says?
    Because they only want it to be literal, where they think that it should be literal,

    And symbolic where they think it should be symbolic.

    If you put them in the proper places, then it shows that pre trib cannot be true.

    As for as changing my mind, I came to the truth about 40 years ago.
    A "known Bible Scholar" presented a week of lessons on the "Rapture of the Church" at the church I was attending.
    He presented the same arguments for a "Pre-trib rapture of the Church" that you and Ahwat make, almost word for word.
    I had some serious questions, some of the same I have presented here, that he could not answer with Scripture.

    Why does not "last trump" mean last trump?
    I does mean that. the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet. This is shown by the story of the scroll ending at the 7th trmp.

    At the rapt/resurrection when Jesus comes for the kingdom.


    Why do you call the tribulation God's wrath, when Jesus calls it great tribulation?
    So they can confuse people.

    Where do the Tribulation Saints come from? Since there is only one gathering of the Saints, when are the Tribulation Saints gathered?
    They resurrected with Jesus when He did. They are from Roman persecution, since Rome invaded.


    This great Bible Scholar quickly labeled me as ignorant, unlearned, and probably lost simply because I questioned his "private interpretation of Scripture" and his authority to instruct others.
    After much study, I came to the conclusion that his teaching could not be supported nor proven by Scripture unless he did as you have done-
    --Change the meaning of words or place meanings on Scripture that are not there.
    You got it.

    Now I have on several occasions tried to see things your way, but I can not take Scripture literally and come to any other conclusion but that the gathering of the Saints comes at the last, seventh trump when Jesus comes.
    I agree, but can you figure out the rest, from this truth that you know? That the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet?


    So I will ask you to answer the same questions with Scripture proof if you can.
    I would ask Ahwat, but he must have me on ignore. I guess he got tired of me asking him to prove what he was teaching with Scripture.
    Brother Ahwatukee is a gentleman for sure. A true believer and knows a lot. He has really helped me study by discussing things with me. But he hasn't got the prophecies quite right yet, ha ha. But I still have hope for him.

  13. #173
    Senior Member Deade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    Because they only want it to be literal, where they think that it should be literal,

    And symbolic where they think it should be symbolic.

    If you put them in the proper places, then it shows that pre trib cannot be true.

    I does mean that. the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet. This is shown by the story of the scroll ending at the 7th trmp.

    At the rapt/resurrection when Jesus comes for the kingdom.

    So they can confuse people.

    They resurrected with Jesus when He did. They are from Roman persecution, since Rome invaded.

    You got it.

    I agree, but can you figure out the rest, from this truth that you know? That the 7th trumpet is the last trumpet?

    Brother Ahwatukee is a gentleman for sure. A true believer and knows a lot. He has really helped me study by discussing things with me. But he hasn't got the prophecies quite right yet, ha ha. But I still have hope for him.
    Hi abcdef,

    I have 2 new blogs that give scriptural references to these topics. "State of the Dead" - "The White Throne Judgement"
    Check them out,

    Yours,

    Deade
    Romans 8:28: “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God,
    to them who are the called according to His purpose.”

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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Hi abcdef,

    I have 2 new blogs that give scriptural references to these topics. "State of the Dead" - "The White Throne Judgement"
    Check them out,

    Yours,

    Deade
    Hi Deade,

    I read them and disagree with most of the time line and substance.

    Also your other blogs about England and the USA being the lost tribes of Israel. I disagree with them also.

    ------

    Since this thread is about the last days,

    When Jerusalem falls, the 7th/last trumpet will sound, Jesus will come for the kingdom, and this planet will come to a fiery end. (No second chances)

  15. #175
    Senior Member Bladerunner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellsworth1943 View Post
    No, my problem is that you as well as others state that you take Rev. literally, but then you start to try and make the Scripture means something else. If you believe it is literal, why not just accept what it says?

    As for as changing my mind, I came to the truth about 40 years ago.
    A "known Bible Scholar" presented a week of lessons on the "Rapture of the Church" at the church I was attending.
    He presented the same arguments for a "Pre-trib rapture of the Church" that you and Ahwat make, almost word for word.
    I had some serious questions, some of the same I have presented here, that he could not answer with Scripture.
    Why does not "last trump" mean last trump? Why do you call the tribulation God's wrath, when Jesus calls it great tribulation? Where do the Tribulation Saints come from? Since there is only one gathering of the Saints, when are the Tribulation Saints gathered?
    This great Bible Scholar quickly labeled me as ignorant, unlearned, and probably lost simply because I questioned his "private interpretation of Scripture" and his authority to instruct others.
    After much study, I came to the conclusion that his teaching could not be supported nor proven by Scripture unless he did as you have done---Change the meaning of words or place meanings on Scripture that are not there.

    Now I have on several occasions tried to see things your way, but I can not take Scripture literally and come to any other conclusion but that the gathering of the Saints comes at the last, seventh trump when Jesus comes.

    So I will ask you to answer the same questions with Scripture proof if you can.
    I would ask Ahwat, but he must have me on ignore. I guess he got tired of me asking him to prove what he was teaching with Scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellsworth1943 View Post
    But john is not taken into Heaven until Rev. 4.
    It does not state that this event of Rev.1:13 is in Heaven. The candlesticks are identified as the seven churches in Asia. Present tense. To change the meaning to "the church" changing Scripture and not taking the Scripture literally as you state you do.
    Also to state that the 24 elders resent the body of Christ is just opinion. The Scripture does not identify who they are.

    Brother, you seem to see thing I do not see. I take it literally. I read the words and believe what it says.
    Ellsworth, Sorry you feel that way. However, you left open the question of where John and Jesus were and I intend to at least answer that.

    In any good book there is always a different story that is told in the front of the 1st chapter. In later chapters, we find that this story is related to the main story of the book. It is called a Prologue

    The first three chapters are about the Church (Body of Christ). From Chapter 4 on to the End the Church is only mentioned 1 time. The Flavor of the pages turn to Israel and their plight plus the unbelieving Gentiles and their punishment.

    Going back to verse 4, John greeting the Churches of Asia and we see that John is doing this in the presence of Jesus and the 7 spirits 'in the Throne room'. " v4 "........from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;"

    Rev. 1:12...we see John apparantly hearing something behind him and turns to see what it is...the SEVEN Golden Candlesticks.
    In verse 13. John sees someone walking amongst the SEVEN Candlesticks and guess who HE be...Jesus Christ.....Now here we are in the Throne Room (No, it does not say Heaven) so accordingly we cannot place the Throne Room in Heaven unless it actually tells us that is where the Throne Room is??????

    NOTE: (This is the problem of simply reading the Bible literally only. I, myself read the whole Bible with a Literal, Historical and Grammatical viewpoint. )

    So we have now placed John, Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the Throne Room of GOD. in verse 13 long before Chapter 4. there John is simply telling us what is in the Throne Room.

    To continue, we see in Rev 1:20, the Angel tell John that the CandleSticks (LampStands) represent the Seven Churches that Jesus has written a letter to. We are also told the SEVEN Stars (those same Stars that Jesus Held in is Right Hand) represent the Angels of the Seven Churches.

    (Note: Lampstands is NOT in the KJV but is in the other versions Bible.)

    (Note: there is disagreement as to Who these Angels of the Seven Churches are....Many say they are pastors or elders, etc. My view is that they are Angels...In the Bible, Star (g792 ἀστήρ astēr) appears 51 times in 50 verses. While it is argued that not all the stars are Angels, the Stars in Rev 1:16; 1:20; 2:1; 3:1 are stated as Angels by the Angel of Jesus to John.
    NOTE: Strong's definition on how STAR(s) is used in the Bible;(ἀστήρ astḗr, as-tare'; probably from the base of G4766; a star (as strown over the sky), literally or figuratively:—star. )

    To sum up Rev 1......the Candlesticks represent the Church or Body of Jesus. They are in Heaven (oops the Throne Room) where Jesus walks in the midst of them......John is in the Spirit seeing, and/or hearing and/or feeling all that is told to him by the angel Jesus is instructing.

    My comment: It is my belief using the hermeneutics previously stated; that Jesus, John and the angel Jesus is instructing are in the Throne Room of GOD. Since Jesus is walking in the Midst of the Churches (candlesticks), they too are in the Throne Room, Thus THEY HAVE BEEN RAPTURED! At this time period, The Church is no longer on Earth.

    I urge you and all who read this NOT to believe anything I have said, but rather be a Good Berean (Acts 17:11) and search it out for yourself.

    Ellsworth...I will answer all your questions including the one about the Seven Churches and their meanings. Just, Please give me a little time.

    1 Cor 15:1-4

    Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    .

  16. #176
    OtherWay210
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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    Ellsworth1943there is no rapture.

    No one can show you it, because its not there.
    They are adding to, omitting, and reinterpreting the passages to try and fit a false doctrine .


    The Saints are set aside, because they overcome. The rest are being killed off in a spiritual sense, because they're worshiping Satan . They're no longer Christians, but Whores. The sin is many times
    identified with fornication, and idolatry . Once that takes place, there wont be many people who can stand before Christ, and in their right mind say they're saved ; having just prior to Christs' return at the Last Trump ( 7th ) worshiped Satan at the 6th .

    Keep in the word .
    Last edited by OtherWay210; January 15th, 2018 at 12:36 AM.

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    Senior Member Ahwatukee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    Hello Ellworth,

    No, my problem is that you as well as others state that you take Rev. literally, but then you start to try and make the Scripture means something else. If you believe it is literal, why not just accept what it says?


    First of all, you are correct in that, I do have you on ignore, but not because I can't what I am claiming through scripture, but because you don't listen. Take the what you said above for example: I have always maintained that the book of Revelation should be read in the literal sense unless a symbolic interpretation is obvious or required. But you just hear and quote the first part and forget the "unless a symbolic interpretation is obvious or required."

    Many times in Revelation we are given symbolism and told what the literal meaning is behind it. For example, John sees Jesus standing among seven lampstands and holding seven stars in his right hand. Then a few verses down he explains to John the literal meaning behind the lampstands as representing the seven churches and the stars representing the messengers of the seven churches. So here we have symbolism and the revealing of that symbolism. When I say that Revelation should be read in the literal sense, it does not mean to be so rigid that you ignore the obvious symbolism. You have to be able to discern between the two.

    Another example of obvious symbolism is the woman and the dragon of Rev.12. The identity of the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars is revealed to us in Genesis 37:9-10, for God uses the same symbols as found in Josephs dream, where the sun represents Jacob, the moon his wife/wives and the eleven stars represent his eleven of the twelve tribes of Israel with Joseph being number twelve. Therefore according to scripture, the woman represents the nation Israel as a whole, because she contains all of the characteristics that make up Israel.

    The dragon is identified as being that ancient serpent, the devil and Satan. The characteristics of the dragon such as the seven heads, ten horns and seven crowns are also symbolic with literal meaning behind them which are also revealed right in Revelation.

    Now to answer your questions:

    Why does not "last trump" mean last trump?


    First of all, it is important to not pigeonhole words in scripture, because it is the context that should considered in determining the meaning of things. That said, we are not told what "the last trump" is in scripture. It is obviously the last trumpet of a certain type of trumpet. As I said regarding pigeonholing, you can't just take the word "trumpet" and apply it to referring to the same event everywhere you read the word trumpet. As an example, people read "last trumpet" in 1 Cor.15:52 and then they apply that trumpet as referring to the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments, while ignoring the fact that there is nothing in the context that even hints about the church being gathered, nor the fact that the 7th trumpet is a judgment of wrath with no blessings associated with, much the gathering of the church. The "last trump" is a different trumpet from the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments.

    Why do you call the tribulation God's wrath, when Jesus calls it great tribulation?


    Jesus described the great tribulation as covering the time from the setting up of the abomination, which according to Dan.9:27 takes place in the middle of that last seven years, until the time the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. Therefore, the great tribulation specifically covers the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

    The tribulation period or God's wrath, covers the entire seven with the last 3 1/2 being the great tribulation and that because that is when the antichrist/beast causes the sacrifices and offerings that Israel will have been performing to cease and when he stands in the temple proclaiming himself to be God. This is the time of Jacob's trouble. During this entire time God will also be pouring his wrath out in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments upon the entire world.

    <----------- Tribulation -----> ABOMINATION <------ Great tribulation ---------> End of the age

    <------- 1ST 3 1/2 YEARS ------------><------------- 2ND 3 1/2 YEARS -------->

    < ----------- S E A L S ------- T R U M P E T S ----------- B O W L S ------------->

    It is also important to understand the difference between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said that believers would have vs. the tribulation referred to after the church as been gathered, also referred to as the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. This is the time period that we as believers are not appointed to suffer. Christians have been suffering the trials and tribulations that Jesus said we would have from the on-set up the church to this very day. However, after the church has been gathered, then the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath will begin.

    Where do the Tribulation Saints come from? Since there is only one gathering of the Saints, when are the Tribulation Saints gathered?


    The tribulation saints are people who will come to Christ after the church has been gathered. They are that group of white robed saints which no man can count from every tribe, nation, people and language who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. The very fact that elder is asking John who they are and that John's doesn't know them, demonstrates that this group is not the church. In further support of this we never see the word "church" ever mentioned again after the end of chapter 3.

    Furthermore, your claim that there is only one gathering is not correct. For example, the male child, which is a collective name representing the 144,000, will be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years out of the dragons reach. Also, the church will be gathered prior to the time of God's wrath and the great tribulation saints will be resurrected after Christ returns to the earth to end the age as described in Rev.20:4-6

    I sincerely hope that God will open your eyes to these truths
    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no account of wrongs. Love takes no pleasure in evil, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    Ellsworth1943there is no rapture.

    No one can show you it, because its not there.


    "
    For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

    "
    Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

    The word "rapture" may not be there, but the word "Harpazo," which is translated as "caught up" is. Therefore, consider yourself shown!

    According to the scriptures above, at the time when the Lord descends into the atmosphere, those who will have died in Christ from the on-set of the church, their bodies will resurrect and their spirits will be reunited with those resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, the living in Christ will be changed and caught up with them, where according to the Lord's promise, he will take the entire group back to the Father's house to those dwelling places that he went to prepare for us, that where He is we may be also.

    Therefore, putting aside the timing of when the resurrection and catching away takes place, the event must take place and that because it is written in the scriptures above.
    abcdef and Lucy-Pevensie like this.
    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no account of wrongs. Love takes no pleasure in evil, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    .

    Brother Ahwatukee,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    Hello Ellworth,

    First of all, you are correct in that, I do have you on ignore, but not because I can't what I am claiming through scripture, but because you don't listen. Take the what you said above for example: I have always maintained that the book of Revelation should be read in the literal sense unless a symbolic interpretation is obvious or required. But you just hear and quote the first part and forget the "unless a symbolic interpretation is obvious or required."

    Many times in Revelation we are given symbolism and told what the literal meaning is behind it. For example, John sees Jesus standing among seven lampstands and holding seven stars in his right hand. Then a few verses down he explains to John the literal meaning behind the lampstands as representing the seven churches and the stars representing the messengers of the seven churches. So here we have symbolism and the revealing of that symbolism. When I say that Revelation should be read in the literal sense, it does not mean to be so rigid that you ignore the obvious symbolism. You have to be able to discern between the two.

    Another example of obvious symbolism is the woman and the dragon of Rev.12. The identity of the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars is revealed to us in Genesis 37:9-10, for God uses the same symbols as found in Josephs dream, where the sun represents Jacob, the moon his wife/wives and the eleven stars represent his eleven of the twelve tribes of Israel with Joseph being number twelve. Therefore according to scripture, the woman represents the nation Israel as a whole, because she contains all of the characteristics that make up Israel.


    The dragon is identified as being that ancient serpent, the devil and Satan. The characteristics of the dragon such as the seven heads, ten horns and seven crowns are also symbolic with literal meaning behind them which are also revealed right in Revelation.


    Who is the iron legs/toes, 4th beast, scarlet beast, dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns, beast with 7 heads and 10 horns, Rome?

    How is it, that the iron is solid, (but divided and mixed with clay), all the way to the end of the toes? Dan. 2

    Who is the Antichrist of the iron?

    Who was the iron 500 years ago? who is the iron today? right now?



    Now to answer your questions:

    First of all, it is important to not pigeonhole words in scripture, because it is the context that should considered in determining the meaning of things. That said, we are not told what "the last trump" is in scripture. It is obviously the last trumpet of a certain type of trumpet. As I said regarding pigeonholing, you can't just take the word "trumpet" and apply it to referring to the same event everywhere you read the word trumpet. As an example, people read "last trumpet" in 1 Cor.15:52 and then they apply that trumpet as referring to the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments, while ignoring the fact that there is nothing in the context that even hints about the church being gathered, nor the fact that the 7th trumpet is a judgment of wrath with no blessings associated with, much the gathering of the church. The "last trump" is a different trumpet from the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments.

    Jesus described the great tribulation as covering the time from the setting up of the abomination, which according to Dan.9:27 takes place in the middle of that last seven years, until the time the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. Therefore, the great tribulation specifically covers the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

    The tribulation period or God's wrath, covers the entire seven with the last 3 1/2 being the great tribulation and that because that is when the antichrist/beast causes the sacrifices and offerings that Israel will have been performing to cease and when he stands in the temple proclaiming himself to be God. This is the time of Jacob's trouble. During this entire time God will also be pouring his wrath out in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments upon the entire world.

    <----------- Tribulation -----> ABOMINATION <------ Great tribulation ---------> End of the age

    <------- 1ST 3 1/2 YEARS ------------><------------- 2ND 3 1/2 YEARS -------->

    < ----------- S E A L S ------- T R U M P E T S ----------- B O W L S ------------->

    It is also important to understand the difference between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said that believers would have vs. the tribulation referred to after the church as been gathered, also referred to as the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath. This is the time period that we as believers are not appointed to suffer. Christians have been suffering the trials and tribulations that Jesus said we would have from the on-set up the church to this very day. However, after the church has been gathered, then the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath will begin.

    The tribulation saints are people who will come to Christ after the church has been gathered. They are that group of white robed saints which no man can count from every tribe, nation, people and language who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. The very fact that elder is asking John who they are and that John's doesn't know them, demonstrates that this group is not the church. In further support of this we never see the word "church" ever mentioned again after the end of chapter 3.

    Furthermore, your claim that there is only one gathering is not correct. For example, the male child, which is a collective name representing the 144,000, will be caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years out of the dragons reach. Also, the church will be gathered prior to the time of God's wrath and the great tribulation saints will be resurrected after Christ returns to the earth to end the age as described in Rev.20:4-6

    I sincerely hope that God will open your eyes to these truths
    .............................

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    Default Re: Understanding the End of Days

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    What David said regarding Sheol before the resurrection of Christ is no longer applicable. We need to rightly divide the word of Truth. All the OT saints are now in the New Jerusalem with God and Christ (Heb 12:22-24), and no doubt praising God, since that is the primary occupation of all those who are in Heaven.
    Heb. 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    These just men were forgiven and made perfect, but they are still dead until Jesus comes back and resurrects them.

    I can't believe you are actually preaching that Jesus has already came back and raised the dead incorruptible.

    1 Tim. 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
    16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

    This was written long after Jesus was raised.

    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    So David's Word's still stand. We have this life to serve God in truth and humility. When we die, our works are over. Some will be raised to life everlasting, and some will be raised to death everlasting.

    You further ancient Catholic tradition, you should study to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

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