Is Sally Saved?
- Thread starter DiscipleDave
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Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
(NOTE: The KEY to vs 9 is """believe in thine heart"""
Christ the Word of God knows our hearts intentions (Heb 4:12). Only Christ can baptise in/with the eternal SEAL, the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11)
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
So, if Mary's confession was truly from her HEART. Not just words, being a crafty attempt to cover her bases. I believe the answer is YES, Mary would be saved.
Final thought, many religions keep track of numbers by how many people they water baptize. Although, I believe every believer should be water baptized. I believe their spiritual grow is tied to this action. It isn't proof of, or a requirement for, salvation.
Exactly. I'm sure that Sally is not going to instantly tell this preacher all about the salvation process. It's like it says in the book of Isaiah. "Line upon line, precept upon precept, a little here a little there". Just because Sally is unable to express exactly this new creation that she is in Christ does not mean that she was not saved. Why say anything to this preacher in the first place? Baptism is a physical public act proclaiming your salvation but is not part of the actual salvation process. There is water baptism and then there is baptism by the Holy Spirit. At the time of your salvation the Holy Spirit comes in your heart to strengthen you, comfort you and guide you on your spiritual journey. This is the result of salvation and a not a cause of it.
Especially the above. The answers are being examined, most likely the OP will be skewed a bit more, more details to be offered to help his case, or there is a loophole "Sally" missed. She didn't follow proper protocol, made a verbiage error, a chronological error, a theological error and needs an asbestos suit pronto.
...and anyone who believes she is saved is also on their way to hell with her.
...and anyone who believes she is saved is also on their way to hell with her.
The act of "trusting exclusively" in Christ for salvation is absolutely conveyed as the point of forgiveness of sins. Acts 10:43 - "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.
Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, *(what happened to baptism?)* 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
We are saved through faith (belief, trust, reliance) IN CHRIST for salvation and not by works. No amount of works can replace faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation which is commanded for forgiveness of sins to take place. Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that brings salvation (Romans 1:16; 10:16). When will you believe?
Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:39; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18 etc.. is not a manmade idea. IT'S SCRIPTURE.
If we are not forgiven of our sins until after baptism, verses such as John 3:15,16,18; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13;39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc.. serve no purpose other than to confuse. *Scripture MUST harmonize with Scripture.*
In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis. Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).
In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. These Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.
So the only logical conclusion when *properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
In regards to Acts 22:16, this "washing away of sin" in water baptism was only "formal" or symbolic. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ. Water baptism does not wash the soul. This occurred earlier when Paul came to faith in Christ. Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).
Our sins are already washed away by the blood of Christ and we are saved when we repent/believe/call upon the name of the Lord (Acts 3:19; Acts 10:43; Romans 3:24-26; 10:13) BEFORE water baptism. Paul tells that he did not receive or hear the Gospel from Ananias, but rather he heard it directly from Christ. Galatians 1:11-12 says, "For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ."
It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his water baptism.
It is also interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior prior to receiving water baptism since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was not saved.
*No single text of Scripture is to be interpreted out of context, and this includes the entirety of Scripture. No scripture is to be interpretated in isolation from the totality of Scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.*
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he whodoes not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned."
If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).
*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.
The blind man was cured of blindness (received his sight) after he washed in the Pool of Siloam. He was not saved based on the merits of washing in the Pool of Siloam. Big difference.
Jesus is the door (John 10:9) and we enter through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).
The Israelites received Jericho (not eternal life) after they marched around the city for seven days. Salvation is a free gift received through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9), not through faith "plus" marching around a city.
Peter received fish and not the gift of eternal life when he obeyed Jesus and dropped the net. You confuse receiving the gift of eternal life "through faith" with receiving a blessing by performing an act of obedience by or "out of" faith.
Belief/Faith in Christ for salvation is not reliance in ourselves, but is reliance in Christ. Faith in "water and works" is reliance in self. You would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water. You will stop at nothing in order to promote your "works based" false gospel.
In Acts 2:37, these Jews were cut to the heart, yet their "belief" at this point was "mental assent" that Jesus was the Messiah and they were guilty of crucifying Him. *That is not saving belief yet. They still lacked trust and reliance in Christ alone for salvation and that's why they still needed to repent and place their faith in Christ alone for salvation.
Again, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.
Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
When the Philippian jailor asked Paul and Silas, "what must I do to be saved?" was their answer, "get water baptized and you will be saved?" or "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and get water baptized and you will be saved? NO. Their answer was simply, "BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND YOU WILL BE SAVED, YOU AND YOUR HOUSEHOLD" (Acts 16:31).
38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.
Romans 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, *(what happened to baptism?)* 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
We are saved through faith (belief, trust, reliance) IN CHRIST for salvation and not by works. No amount of works can replace faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ for salvation which is commanded for forgiveness of sins to take place. Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that brings salvation (Romans 1:16; 10:16). When will you believe?
Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13:39; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18 etc.. is not a manmade idea. IT'S SCRIPTURE.
If we are not forgiven of our sins until after baptism, verses such as John 3:15,16,18; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 13;39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc.. serve no purpose other than to confuse. *Scripture MUST harmonize with Scripture.*
In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis. Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).
In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. These Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.
So the only logical conclusion when *properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
In regards to Acts 22:16, this "washing away of sin" in water baptism was only "formal" or symbolic. As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ. Water baptism does not wash the soul. This occurred earlier when Paul came to faith in Christ. Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).
Our sins are already washed away by the blood of Christ and we are saved when we repent/believe/call upon the name of the Lord (Acts 3:19; Acts 10:43; Romans 3:24-26; 10:13) BEFORE water baptism. Paul tells that he did not receive or hear the Gospel from Ananias, but rather he heard it directly from Christ. Galatians 1:11-12 says, "For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ."
It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was before he was baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his water baptism.
It is also interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior prior to receiving water baptism since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was not saved.
*No single text of Scripture is to be interpreted out of context, and this includes the entirety of Scripture. No scripture is to be interpretated in isolation from the totality of Scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.*
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he whodoes not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned."
If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).
*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.
The blind man was cured of blindness (received his sight) after he washed in the Pool of Siloam. He was not saved based on the merits of washing in the Pool of Siloam. Big difference.
Jesus is the door (John 10:9) and we enter through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9).
The Israelites received Jericho (not eternal life) after they marched around the city for seven days. Salvation is a free gift received through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9), not through faith "plus" marching around a city.
Peter received fish and not the gift of eternal life when he obeyed Jesus and dropped the net. You confuse receiving the gift of eternal life "through faith" with receiving a blessing by performing an act of obedience by or "out of" faith.
Belief/Faith in Christ for salvation is not reliance in ourselves, but is reliance in Christ. Faith in "water and works" is reliance in self. You would walk around mountains of grace in order to find water. You will stop at nothing in order to promote your "works based" false gospel.
In Acts 2:37, these Jews were cut to the heart, yet their "belief" at this point was "mental assent" that Jesus was the Messiah and they were guilty of crucifying Him. *That is not saving belief yet. They still lacked trust and reliance in Christ alone for salvation and that's why they still needed to repent and place their faith in Christ alone for salvation.
Again, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.
Faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
When the Philippian jailor asked Paul and Silas, "what must I do to be saved?" was their answer, "get water baptized and you will be saved?" or "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and get water baptized and you will be saved? NO. Their answer was simply, "BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND YOU WILL BE SAVED, YOU AND YOUR HOUSEHOLD" (Acts 16:31).
I PRAISE G-D He did not allow us to be the judge of who was saved and not saved. We get to judge people by their fruit to gage if they are christian enough to hang out with them but not be the deciding factor. My grandfather, 85 years old, died in a hospital bed, and G-d allowed me the privilege to say "the sinner's prayer" with him. Devoted religious Jew, died next day, in his hospital bed. I have a close friend that believes she is a "Christian", she did all your perdy stuff, but thinks muslims will go to heaven to. Who is saved? Who is saved, in my opinion, Grandpa... ONLY G-D KNOWS!!!! I pray for her a lot! Yet, I do not know her heart!!!! But I don't she is saved... I only get to judge her fruit though not make the decision....
R
The simplicity of Christ is not you believe then you do nothing. Deeds accompanying salvation is not a works gospel any more than this popular 'deeds don't have to accompany salvation' is the gospel.
"land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation."-Hebrews 6:8-9
The only way we can be 'convinced of better things in Sally's case' is if she is bearing fruit, the things that have to do with salvation. That's not a works gospel. That's what the Bible says. Let's stop this rationalizing of dead faith for fear of promoting a works gospel and start believing what the Bible says. People who claim to have been saved by faith but who do not have the deeds that accompany salvation are not saved. If they remain that way to the end they will be burned, not saved when Jesus comes back.
"land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation."-Hebrews 6:8-9
The only way we can be 'convinced of better things in Sally's case' is if she is bearing fruit, the things that have to do with salvation. That's not a works gospel. That's what the Bible says. Let's stop this rationalizing of dead faith for fear of promoting a works gospel and start believing what the Bible says. People who claim to have been saved by faith but who do not have the deeds that accompany salvation are not saved. If they remain that way to the end they will be burned, not saved when Jesus comes back.
R
"his grace to me was not without effect."-1 Corinthians 15:10
The grace of God has consequence. If a person doesn't have any consequences of God's grace in salvation in their life, they are not saved. Until a person can prove otherwise there is no reason to consider them saved. That doesn't mean they never will be. It means they are not now.
The grace of God has consequence. If a person doesn't have any consequences of God's grace in salvation in their life, they are not saved. Until a person can prove otherwise there is no reason to consider them saved. That doesn't mean they never will be. It means they are not now.
You can forget having any sway with me....your track record reeks of deceit, dishonesty, embellishing what we say, denial of what we say, twisting what we say and your false gospel of must have will place you in a group that ypu have no desire to he in at the end of the day.......faith alone is what saves a man....every flavor of works will be found in believers, chastisment is not meeted out to the faithful children and this is the first post I have actually read of yours in a few days because your inability to be honest reeks!