Jesus is Our Passover lamb, is He also our Scapegoat?

Ariel82 · Jan 15, 2018

I understand the Biblical concept of the Passover lamb, killed so that His blood can be smeared on the doorstep during the time of the Plague of the Firstborn in Egypt where angels went through the streets to kill the firstborn of all animals and all families unless they stayed within the shelter and protection of the Blood.

we still see it today. people walking out of the household of God and being slaughtered spiritually on the streets.

someone asked me about Cambodian dance traditions and i found a video which i will share shortly.

it tells of a story of a deer or wild animal coming into the village and the hunter having to chase it out and kill it, because the deer brings bad luck.

i don't believe in "bad luck" but the story reminded me of the Jewish tradition of a scapegoat. there are a lot of differences but notice i said "remind me" not "is exactly like" the tradition of scapegoating.

ere are the Bible verses:

[FONT=&quot][URL="http://christianchat.com/"#">Tools

"He shall take the two goats and present them before the LORD at the doorway of the tent of meeting. "Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat. "Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the LORD fell, and make it a sin offering. <a class="read-more-span" style="box-sizing: border-box; background-color: transparent; color: rgb(57, 84, 127); transition: color 0.2s ease-in-out;">.</a> "But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat ************  which lead me to my first question:  1. What is scapegoating?  we use the term now as putting blame on someone who doesn't deserve it and having them take the punishment instead of us.  my second question is 2. which theory of atonement is Biblical?  i have heard of Three different beliefs about atonement.  1. Christos Victorus (Christ the Victor that shows us the way to salvation and makes it possible to follow in His footsteps) 2. Penal Substitutions (the one  that sounds like Jesus is our scapegoat, taking our sin and punishment of death in our place so that we might become children of God.) i forgot the third and i am sure others can expand on the two about. i don't know why i am posting this thread. i guess its just a step in my quest for God's wisdom and truth. if you feel moved to post any thoughts, comments, sermons, videos, book studies, scriptures, songs, etc,  that will edify and uplift, be welcomed and blessed.  as for those who come only to fight, i don't have time to respond to such pettiness. I will simple say a prayer for you and respond with scripture for that is How Jesus showed us to respond to the Accuser of Brethren during His temptation in the wilderness.  As we enter this Lental season, our faith will be tested. Will we endure and speak the words of Job "God giveth and God taketh away" or will we do as his wife advise him "Just curse God and die" how will we endure this time of darkness, will we wait upon the returning of the Light or will we hide in the shadows to take the blood of innocents?

Ariel82 · Jan 15, 2018

okay what just happened?

Ariel82 · Jan 15, 2018

He shall take the two goats and present them before the LORD at the doorway of the tent of meeting. "Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat. "Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the LORD fell, and make it a sin offering

"But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat

which lead me to my first question

1. What is scapegoating

we use the term now as putting blame on someone who doesn't deserve it and having them take the punishment instead of us.

my second question is

2. which theory of atonement is Biblical?

i have heard of Three different beliefs about atonement

.1. Christos Victorus (Christ the Victor that shows us the way to salvation and makes it possible to follow in His footsteps)

2. Penal Substitutions (the one  that sounds like Jesus is our scapegoat, taking our sin and punishment of death in our place so that we might become children of God.)

i forgot the third and i am sure others can expand on the two about.

i don't know why i am posting this thread. i guess its just a step in my quest for God's wisdom and truth.

if you feel moved to post any thoughts, comments, sermons, videos, book studies, scriptures, songs, etc,
that will edify and uplift, be welcomed and blessed.

as for those who come only to fight, i don't have time to respond to such pettiness. I will simple say a prayer for you and respond with scripture for that is How Jesus showed us to respond to the Accuser of Brethren during His temptation in the wilderness.

As we enter this Lental season, our faith will be tested. Will we endure and speak the words of Job "God giveth and God taketh away" or will we do as his wife advise him "Just curse God and die"

how will we endure this time of darkness, will we wait upon the returning of the Light or will we hide in the shadows to take the blood of innocents?

Ariel82 · Jan 15, 2018

praise God it worked this time.

got to go face the World.

God bless and keep you.

here is the Cambodian song i referred to in my post. it has English subtitles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s0FPZS251Q

Adstar · Jan 15, 2018

The Lamb of the Passover is the perfect picture of the Atoning Blood that causes judgement to Passover us..

John the baptists introduced Jesus in the following way to his followers for a reason..

John 1: KJV
29 "¶ The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. {30} This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me."

As we know Jesus was executed on the day of Passover,, He is the Atoning sacrifice for the sins of all who believe Him..

Stunnedbygrace · Jan 15, 2018

Intriguing! Wondering now if the explanations of what the scapegoat is which I have heard are not accurate...

Ariel82 · Jan 15, 2018

Stunnedbygrace said:

what have you heard?

i was going to do some research and ask some folks in real life their thoughts and post my finding but would love to hear from folks who are on this site what they have learnt or heard on the topic.

gtg grocery shopping but will check in later God willing.

Stunnedbygrace · Jan 15, 2018

Ariel82 said:

I have heard it like this. They place their hands on the lamb that is the scapegoat and all the sins transfer to him. Then they drive him out of the camp and if he comes back, it is sins returning. But that doesn't really make sense since the one that by lot is sacrificed is for forgiveness of their sins. So if their sins are forgiven by the blood of the sacrifice, why are they still trying to fuss with and get rid of those sins...?

Stunnedbygrace · Jan 15, 2018

And so when I read the vss you posted, it seemed to be saying...the scapegoat was who atonement would be made on, or applied to...which makes me think the scapegoat is...me. That I escaped because the one the lot fell to died so I could be the...escaped goat.

There were two goats and one of them was going to die. The other one escaped death.

Stunnedbygrace · Jan 15, 2018

The more I think about it the more it makes sense to me. The escaped goat , the one who escaped death, was set apart from the multitude. He no longer lived in the camp or was a part of it...

Stunnedbygrace · Jan 15, 2018

And since he is no longer a member of the camp or multitude, he can no longer be picked for the lot. He can not face that...double jeopardy because he is no longer there...

Ariel82 · Jan 15, 2018

Stunnedbygrace said:

i was thinking that the scapegoat of the world is Jesus because He was driven in the wilderness for 40 days.

i never heard about if the scapegoat returned that meant their sin returned... will have to look up more of Jewish customs and beliefs.

Ariel82 · Jan 15, 2018

Stunnedbygrace said:

through Christ we have escaped death... hmmm something to pray about anyway.

Ariel82 · Jan 15, 2018

i was listening to John Calvin's sermon about Job and he said that Job through his example of righteousness judged the nation of Israel which he was not a part of as not holding to God's holy standards. Though they had the covenant and the benefits of laws and God's grace. this gentile Job was more holy and righteous than the whole nation. He talked about Noah and how he stood out and others.

it was an interesting sermon and you will have to listen yourself because i feel that i have to listen to it about 10 more times before i really get all the nuances of his sermon.

it just makes me think about how when we live righteous lives people attack us. if someone does a good job at work that makes others look bad and lazy... the lazy coworkers accuse the person doing what they are suppose to as "showing them up"

some even sabotage that persons work and make them the "scapegoat" when things don't go right.

i was thinking maybe we suffer as Jesus did in this world even when we strive to do right because we are the world's scapegoat?

people don't want to accept responsiblities, but would rather place it on others and beat the goat out of town or slaughter it with their hearts than seek mercy and grace and love and forgiveness.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/162291-john-calvins-sermons-book-job.html

Stunnedbygrace · Jan 15, 2018

Too many thoughts and no time to get them all down. Family calling about my birthday plans. If I could be the one to make my plans I would stay and talk with you instead of going to a silly party where no one would even think of talking about God. I love them very much but we have nothing in common any more and I think it bores them to be around me as much as it pains me to be around them...they talk about interior design a lot and get excited about moving furniture around so a room is "balanced." Sometimes I feel I could jump right out of my skin to get away from the party. I sound very awful, don't I? I can't help it any more than they can. They will no longer allow me to take a book along anywhere. So I have to sit and smile at the right times and nod my head at the right times.

FlyingDove · Jan 15, 2018

Jesus was both

Day of Atonement Leviticus 23:27-28 &

Leviticus 16:1-34 Key verses 6, 11, 16, 21 wilderness goat, 30

The blood of the 1st goat that the High Priest placed on the Ark. Was to appease God' s wrath for sin, the next year. Jesus sacrifice, on the Cross, was once for all time Heb 10:10 & 12

After the High Priest laid/pressed his hands onto the sacrifices head & confessed the peoples sins. The 2nd goat sent into the wilderness carrying for the sins of the people.

After John the Baptist (The last OT High Priest) announce's God's lamb that Takes Away (not covers for 1 yr) the sins of the world. John lays his hands on Christ & transfers the sins of the world onto Jesus. Jesus then goes into the wilderness.

When any Israelite brought a sin offering to the Temple. The Priest knew why he was here, didn't ask his what he had done. The Priest would inspect the offering for blemishes. The sinner would then place/press thier hands into the innocent sacrifice's head (Lev 4:3-4). The sin imputes/transfer's from the guilty person onto the innocent sacrifice, that then dies in the sinners place.

Lev chapter 4 has more on the transfer/imputation of sin.

Ariel82 · Jan 15, 2018

Stunnedbygrace said:

tell them if they want true balance peace and beuaty in their home they should think about hanging up some scriptures to remind them of God and give thanks to their many blessings.

however i guess they arent Christians and may not appreciate the thought.

i would still give them one of my paintings with a blessing/prayer and scripture verse to hang up though.

i just told the kids "no talking for 40 minutes" i needed some times to pray and think and do things around the house.

they could chose how they wanted to spend their time but no talking to themselves, each other or me.

my 12 year old son is having a hard time, lol. MLK holidays

Ariel82 · Jan 15, 2018

FlyingDove said:

Jesus was both

Day of Atonement Leviticus 23:27-28 &

Leviticus 16:1-34 Key verses 6, 11, 16, 21 wilderness goat, 30

The blood of the 1st goat that the High Priest placed on the Ark. Was to appease God' s wrath for sin, the next year. Jesus sacrifice, on the Cross, was once for all time Heb 10:10 & 12

After the High Priest laid/pressed his hands onto the sacrifices head & confessed the peoples sins. The 2nd goat sent into the wilderness carrying for the sins of the people.

After John the Baptist (The last OT High Priest) announce's God's lamb that Takes Away (not covers for 1 yr) the sins of the world. John lays his hands on Christ & transfers the sins of the world onto Jesus. Jesus then goes into the wilderness.

When any Israelite brought a sin offering to the Temple. The Priest knew why he was here, didn't ask his what he had done. The Priest would inspect the offering for blemishes. The sinner would then place/press thier hands into the innocent sacrifice's head (Lev 4:3-4). The sin imputes/transfer's from the guilty person onto the innocent sacrifice, that then dies in the sinners place.

Lev chapter 4 has more on the transfer/imputation of sin.

short concise and beautifully stated. thanks.

nddreamer · Jan 15, 2018

In Lev. 16:9-10 there were 2 goats brought to Aaron for the atonement. The first goat offered was that "upon which the Lord's lot fell (Lev. 16:9)", "that is for the people (Lev. 16:15)". The blood of this goat was brought within the veil or the holy of holies and sprinkled upon the mercy seat. The mercy seat covered the ark of the covenant of God which held the 2 tables of stone on which the 10 commandments were written. It was the blood of this goat carried within the holy of holies and sprinkled on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat to "make an atonement---because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins (Lev. 16:16)". It was this sacrifice that symbolized the shedding of the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ for our sins that was brought within the holy of holies or before God. After our Lord's sacrifice for our sins he ascended on high and is now sitting on the right hand of God.
But the scapegoat is very interesting.This is the goat brought before Aaron the high priest who "confessed over him (the goat) all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat (Lev.16:21)". Then the goat was sent away "into the wilderness (Lev. 16:21)". The "wilderness" means a place where God does not dwell or where there is no knowledge of God.
"Lev. 16:22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness." The words "not inhabited" and "wilderness" mean a place where God is not.

"Prov. 11:8 The righteous is delivered out of trouble, and the wicked cometh in his stead."

"Prov. 21:18 The wicked shall be a ransom for the righteous, and the transgressor for the upright."

The scapegoat and these verses seem to suggest that the sins of God's chosen or elect are transferred to others. Does this mean that these others will suffer the punishment or consequences for another's faults? This should scare everyone righteous.

The scapegoat can have nothing to do with our Lord Jesus. All the sins of the people were put upon the scapegoat that was sent into the wilderness just like the sins of the righteous are put upon the wicked and they are separated from God.

Our Lord Jesus Christ who is without sin covers our sins by his righteousness. He took all our sins upon himself and canceled them out by his righteousness. God can't see our sins because our Lord took them away --- but where did he put them or on who did he put them? Strange notions but an interesting thread.

MarcR · Jan 15, 2018

Ariel82 said:

I understand the Biblical concept of the Passover lamb, killed so that His blood can be smeared on the doorstep during the time of the Plague of the Firstborn in Egypt where angels went through the streets to kill the firstborn of all animals and all families unless they stayed within the shelter and protection of the Blood.

we still see it today. people walking out of the household of God and being slaughtered spiritually on the streets.

someone asked me about Cambodian dance traditions and i found a video which i will share shortly.

it tells of a story of a deer or wild animal coming into the village and the hunter having to chase it out and kill it, because the deer brings bad luck.

i don't believe in "bad luck" but the story reminded me of the Jewish tradition of a scapegoat. there are a lot of differences but notice i said "remind me" not "is exactly like" the tradition of scapegoating.

ere are the Bible verses:

[URL="http://christianchat.com/"#">Tools

"He shall take the two goats and present them before the LORD at the doorway of the tent of meeting. "Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats, one lot for the LORD and the other lot for the scapegoat. "Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the LORD fell, and make it a sin offering. <a class="read-more-span" style="box-sizing: border-box; background-color: transparent; color: rgb(57, 84, 127); transition: color 0.2s ease-in-out;">.</a> "But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat ************  which lead me to my first question:  1. What is scapegoating?  we use the term now as putting blame on someone who doesn't deserve it and having them take the punishment instead of us.  my second question is 2. which theory of atonement is Biblical?  i have heard of Three different beliefs about atonement.  1. Christos Victorus (Christ the Victor that shows us the way to salvation and makes it possible to follow in His footsteps) 2. Penal Substitutions (the one  that sounds like Jesus is our scapegoat, taking our sin and punishment of death in our place so that we might become children of God.) i forgot the third and i am sure others can expand on the two about. i don't know why i am posting this thread. i guess its just a step in my quest for God's wisdom and truth. if you feel moved to post any thoughts, comments, sermons, videos, book studies, scriptures, songs, etc,  that will edify and uplift, be welcomed and blessed.  as for those who come only to fight, i don't have time to respond to such pettiness. I will simple say a prayer for you and respond with scripture for that is How Jesus showed us to respond to the Accuser of Brethren during His temptation in the wilderness.  As we enter this Lental season, our faith will be tested. Will we endure and speak the words of Job "God giveth and God taketh away" or will we do as his wife advise him "Just curse God and die" how will we endure this time of darkness, will we wait upon the returning of the Light or will we hide in the shadows to take the blood of innocents?

I believe that all the animal sacrifices required under the Law were figures or shadows of some aspect of Jesus ministry.

Yes Jesus is indeed both the scapegoat and the sin offering.

Jesus is Our Passover lamb, is He also our Scapegoat?

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