Sin-Nature Problem

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Noblemen

Senior Member
Jan 14, 2018
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#1
Nothing that Israel was instructed to do in the Old Testament to be acceptable to God, ever destroyed (killed out) the sin nature.
They did not even know they had a sin nature, they knew they sinned but did not know they had a sin nature compelling them.
Abraham had great faith to do things for God, but as great as his faith was it could not rid him of the sin nature. A point should be made about nature; stability is found in nature, because nature cannot and does not change.
You will find great benefit in that understanding as you see the new Christ in you nature.
The sin nature seeks to controll and desires to be in total control of the individuals mind, Romans 7:17
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I have had Christians asked me "do you think God has turned me over to a reprobate mind" my answer is simply "no."
A reprobate mind can only afflict those that have a sin nature. The question will come up why do Christians "sin," again the answer is simply because their minds were trained by the sin nature and against that nature they warred, even as a non-believer.
Very important for the believer to be renewed in mind at best they will not live under condemnation, because you will never perfect this life in the flesh.
We strive to be christ-like and allow the mind of Christ to freely express itself, but as long as you are in this body you will sin.
The pulls of your body and areas of the mind that remain unrenewed cause the believer to fail.
If you fast and walk by a refrigerator you will see how strong the body pulls can be.
If you desire to quit smoking, drinking or some other body pull, you will see how the mind and the body work together.
It is not a spirit thing as some suppose, it is mind given to body, nothing wrong with your spirit you are one with Christ.
Learning that and getting your mind renewed will help you live life as your father intended you to live, which is by your new Christ in you nature. We have a choice, before the cross there was no choice, they had to live with a nature they didn't even know existed. The only people that can be double-minded is believers, simply because they have a choice.
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#2
Romans 7

15 For that which I do
(the failure) I allow not (should have been translated, "I understand not"; these are not the words of an unsaved man, as some claim, but rather a Believer whois trying and failing): for what I would, that do I not (refers to the obedience he wants to render to Christ, but rather fails; why? as Paul explained, the Believer is married toChrist, but is being unfaithful to Christ by spiritually cohabiting with the Law, which frustrates the Grace of God; that means the Holy Spirit will not help such a person, which guarantees failure [Gal. 2:21]); but what I hate, that do I (refers to sin in his life hates, but finds himself unable to stop; unfortunately, due tothe fact of not understanding the Cross as it refers to Sanctification, this is the plight of most modern Christians).

16 If then I do that which I would not
(presents Paul doing something against his will; he doesn't want todo it, and is trying not to do it, whatever it might be, but finds himselfdoing it anyway), I consent unto the Law that it is good (simply means that the Lawof God is working as it is supposed to work; it defines sin, portraying thefact that the sin nature will rule in man's heart if not addressed properly).

17 Now then it is no more I that do it
(this has been misconstrued by many! it means, "I may befailing, but it's not what I want to do "; no true Christian wants to sinbecause now the Divine Nature is in his life and it is supposed to rule, notthe sin nature [2 Peter 1:4]), but sin (the sin nature) that dwells in me (despite the fact that some preachers claim the sin nature is gonefrom the Christian, Paul here plainly says that the sin nature is still in theChristian; however, if our Faith remains constant in the Cross, the sin naturewill be dormant, causing us no problem; otherwise, it will cause greatproblems; while the sin nature "dwells" in us, it is not to"rule" in us).

18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing (speaks of man's ownability, or rather the lack thereof in comparison to the Holy Spirit, at leastwhen it comes to spiritual things): for to will is present with me (Paul is speaking here of his willpower;regrettably, most modern Christians are trying to live for God by means ofwillpower, thinking falsely that since they have come to Christ, they are nowfree to say "no" to sin; that is the wrong way to look at thesituation; the Believer cannot live for God by the strength of willpower; italone is not enough; the Believer must exercise Faith in Christ, whichautomatically says, "no" to the things of the world); but how to perform that whichis good I find not (outside of the Cross, it is impossible to find a way to do good).

JSM - The Expositor's Study Bible

 
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Noblemen

Senior Member
Jan 14, 2018
498
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#3
When they failed to obey God they thought they had failed to obey the law of God, they had no idea what caused the disobedience.
No man did, that is a main point in OP to show until Paul we knew nothing about a nature.
They knew they sinned but didnt know why, Romans 7:14-15
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul describes the sin-nature for the first time in Romans 7.
He can look at it retrospectively because of standpoint of in Christ now.
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#4
Romans 7

15 For that which I do
(the failure) I allow not (should have been translated, "I understand not"; these are not the words of an unsaved man, as some claim, but rather a Believer who is trying and failing): for what I would, that do I not (refers to the obedience he wants to render to Christ, but rather fails; why? as Paul explained, the Believer is married to Christ, but is being unfaithful to Christ by spiritually cohabiting with the Law, which frustrates the Grace of God; that means the Holy Spirit will not help such a person, which guarantees failure [Gal. 2:21]); but what I hate, that do I (refers to sin in his life hates, but finds himself unable to stop; unfortunately, due to the fact of not understanding the Cross as it refers to Sanctification, this is the plight of most modern Christians).

16 If then I do that which I would not
(presents Paul doing something against his will; he doesn't want to do it, and is trying not to do it, whatever it might be, but finds himself doing it anyway), I consent unto the Law that it is good (simply means that the Law of God is working as it is supposed to work; it defines sin, portraying the fact that the sin nature will rule in man's heart if not addressed properly).

17 Now then it is no more I that do it
(this has been misconstrued by many! it means, "I may be failing, but it's not what I want to do "; no true Christian wants to sin because now the Divine Nature is in his life and it is supposed to rule, not the sin nature [2 Peter 1:4]), but sin (the sin nature) that dwells in me (despite the fact that some preachers claim the sin nature is gone from the Christian, Paul here plainly says that the sin nature is still in the Christian; however, if our Faith remains constant in the Cross, the sin nature will be dormant, causing us no problem; otherwise, it will cause great problems; while the sin nature "dwells" in us, it is not to"rule" in us).


18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing
(speaks of man's own ability, or rather the lack thereof in comparison to the Holy Spirit, at least when it comes to spiritual things): for to will is present with me (Paul is speaking here of his will power; regrettably, most modern Christians are trying to live for God by means of willpower, thinking falsely that since they have come to Christ, they are now free to say "no" to sin; that is the wrong way to look at the situation; the Believer cannot live for God by the strength of willpower; it alone is not enough; the Believer must exercise Faith in Christ, which automatically says, "no" to the things of the world); but how to perform that whichis good I find not (outside of the Cross, it is impossible to find a way to do good).

JSM - The Expositor's Study Bible

Romans 7

19 For the good that I would I do not (if I depend on self, and not the Cross): but the evil which I would not (don't want to do), that I do (which is exactly what every Believer will do no matter how hard he tries to do otherwise, if he tries to live this outside of the Cross [Gal. 2:20-21]).

20 Now if I do that I would not (which is exactly what will happen if the Believer tries to live this life outside of God's Prescribed Order), it is no more I that do it, but sin (the sin nature) that dwells in me (this emphatically states that the Believer has a sin nature; in the original Greek Text, if it contains the definite article before the word "sin" which originally did read "the sin," it is not speaking of acts of sin, but rather the sin nature or the evil nature; the idea is not getting rid of the sin nature, which actually cannot be done, but rather controlling it, which the Apostle has told us how to do in Rom., Chpts. 6 and 8; when the Trump sounds, we will be changed and there will be no more sin nature [Rom. 8:23]).

JSM - The Expositor's Study Bible
 
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Noblemen

Senior Member
Jan 14, 2018
498
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#5
Contrary to popular belief sins of the flesh will continue until the moment you step out of your body.
They are soul mind-sins the spirit is complete in Christ, 1 John 3:8-9
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#6
Romans 7

19 For the good that I would I do not (if I depend on self, and not the Cross): but the evil which I would not (don't want to do), that I do (which is exactly what every Believer will do no matter how hard he tries to do otherwise, if he tries to live this outside of the Cross [Gal. 2:20-21]).

20 Now if I do that I would not (which is exactly what will happen if the Believer tries to live this life outside of God's Prescribed Order), it is no more I that do it, but sin (the sin nature) that dwells in me (this emphatically states that the Believer has a sin nature; in the original Greek Text, if it contains the definite article before the word "sin" which originally did read "the sin," it is not speaking of acts of sin, but rather the sin nature or the evil nature; the idea is not getting rid of the sin nature, which actually cannot be done, but rather controlling it, which the Apostle has told us how to do in Rom., Chpts. 6 and 8; when the Trump sounds, we will be changed and there will be no more sin nature [Rom. 8:23]).

JSM - The Expositor's Study Bible

Romans 7

21 I find then a Law (does not refer in this case to the Law of Moses, but rather to the "Law of sin and death" [Rom. 8:2]), that, when I would do good, evil (the evil nature) is present with me (the idea is that the sin nature is always going to be with the Believer; there is no hint in the Greek that its stay is temporary, at least until the Trump sounds; we can successfully address the sin nature in only one way, and that is by Faith in Christ and the Cross, which Paul will detail in the next Chapter).

22 For I delight in the Law of God (refers to the moral Law of God ensconced in the Ten Commandments) after the inward man (refers to the spirit and soul of man which has now been regenerated):

23 But I see another Law in my members (the Law of sin and death desiring to use my physical body as an instrument of unrighteousness), warring against the Law of my mind (this is the Law of desire and willpower), and bringing me into captivity to the Law of sin (the Law of sin and death) which is in my members (which will function through my members, and make me a slave to the Law of sin and death; this will happen to the most consecrated Christian if that Christian doesn't constantly exercise Faith in Christ and the Cross that all powers of darkness were defeated [Col. 2:14-15]).

JSM - The Expositor's Study Bible
 

Noblemen

Senior Member
Jan 14, 2018
498
149
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#7
I understand you're thinking, and it is the understanding of the majority of the body of Christ. But the fact of the matter is the old man was crucified on the cross, the born again believer has no sin nature they have the nature of their Father which is in Christ.
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#8

Romans 7

21 I find then a Law (does not refer in this case to the Law of Moses, but rather to the "Law of sin and death" [Rom. 8:2]), that, when I would do good, evil (the evil nature) is present with me (the idea is that the sin nature is always going to be with the Believer; there is no hint in the Greek that its stay is temporary, at least until the Trump sounds; we can successfully address the sin nature in only one way, and that is by Faith in Christ and the Cross, which Paul will detail in the next Chapter).

22 For I delight in the Law of God (refers to the moral Law of God ensconced in the Ten Commandments) after the inward man (refers to the spirit and soul of man which has now been regenerated):

23 But I see another Law in my members (the Law of sin and death desiring to use my physical body as an instrument of unrighteousness), warring against the Law of my mind (this is the Law of desire and willpower), and bringing me into captivity to the Law of sin (the Law of sin and death) which is in my members (which will function through my members, and make me a slave to the Law of sin and death; this will happen to the most consecrated Christian if that Christian doesn't constantly exercise Faith in Christ and the Cross that all powers of darkness were defeated [Col. 2:14-15]).

JSM - The Expositor's Study Bible

Romans 7

24 O wretched man that I am! (Any Believer who attempts to live for God outside of God's Prescribed Order, which is "Jesus Christ and Him Crucified," will, in fact, live a wretched and miserable existence. This life can only be lived in one way, and that way is the Cross.) Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (The minute he cries "Who," he finds the path to Victory, for he is now calling upon a Person for help, and that Person is Christ; actually, the Greek Text is masculine, indicating a Person).

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord (presents Paul revealing the answer to his own question; Deliverance comes through Jesus Christ Alone, and more particularly what Jesus did at Calvary and the Resurrection). So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God (the "will" is the trigger, but it within itself can do nothing unless the gun is loaded with explosive power; that Power is the Cross); but with the flesh the Law of sin (if the Believer resorts to the "flesh," [i.e., "self-will, self-effort, religious effort"] which refers to his own ability outside of Christ and the Cross, he will not serve the Law of God, but rather the Law of sin).

JSM - The Expositor's Study Bible
[SUB][/SUB]
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#9
I understand you're thinking, and it is the understanding of the majority of the body of Christ. But the fact of the matter is the old man was crucified on the cross, the born again believer has no sin nature they have the nature of their Father which is in Christ.
​If that was true we would not age or die.
 

Noblemen

Senior Member
Jan 14, 2018
498
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#10
I don't understand your thoughts there, what would that to do with the old man being crucified, Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
What are your thoughts on Romans 6:6
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#11
I don't understand your thoughts there, what would that to do with the old man being crucified, Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
What are your thoughts on Romans 6:6
Romans 6:6-7 - Knowing this, that our old man is Crucified with Him (all that we were before conversion), that the body of sin might be destroyed (the power of the sin nature made ineffective), that henceforth we should not serve sin (the guilt of sin is removed at conversion, because the sin nature no longer rules within our hearts and lives).

For he who is dead (He was our Substitute, and in the Mind of God, we died with Him upon Believing Faith) is freed from sin (set free from bondage of the sin nature).

The power of the sin nature is broken, not eliminated.

The role of obedience in a Christian life is Faith exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work (The Law of the Spirit of Life In Christ Jesus -
Romans 8:2). This gives the Holy Spirit the legal means (who only works in this parameter) to help us and transforms us into what we ought to be (Christlikeness - Romans 8:13). Faith in anything and everything else the works of the flesh will manifest (Gal. 5:19-21). You are now committing Spiritual Adultery.

It is difficult for Believers to place their Faith exclusively in the Cross of Christ because it goes against the flesh (Romans 8:7; Gal. 5:17).

 
Sep 3, 2016
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#12
Romans 6:6-7 - Knowing this, that our old man is Crucified with Him (all that we were before conversion), that the body of sin might be destroyed (the power of the sin nature made ineffective), that henceforth we should not serve sin (the guilt of sin is removed at conversion, because the sin nature no longer rules within our hearts and lives).

For he who is dead (He was our Substitute, and in the Mind of God, we died with Him upon Believing Faith) is freed from sin (set free from bondage of the sin nature). is freed from sin (set free from the bondage of the sin nature).

The power of the sin nature is broken, not eliminated.

The role of obedience in a Christian life is Faith exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work (The Law of the Spirit of Life In Christ Jesus -
Romans 8:2). This gives the Holy Spirit the legal means (who only works in this parameter) to help us and transforms us into what we ought to be (Christlikeness - Romans 8:13). Faith in anything and everything else the works of the flesh will manifest (Gal. 5:19-21). You are now committing Spiritual Adultery.

It is difficult for Believers to place their Faith exclusively in the Cross of Christ because it goes against the flesh (Romans 8:7; Gal. 5:17).

Likewise reckon (account) you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto (the) sin (while the sin nature is not dead, we are dead unto the sin nature by virtue of the Cross and our Faith continues in the Cross), but alive unto God (living the Resurrection Life) through Jesus Christ our Lord (refers to what He did at the Cross, which is the means of this Resurrection Life). Romans 6:11
 

star

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2017
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North Carolina
#13
I understand you're thinking, and it is the understanding of the majority of the body of Christ. But the fact of the matter is the old man was crucified on the cross, the born again believer has no sin nature they have the nature of their Father which is in Christ.

The old man (spiritually) was crucified on the cross. The body (flesh) will remain that until we are united with Christ.

There are verses in scripture explaining that we are in a war between our new spiritual nature and our body or fleshly nature. The goal for all Christians should be to yield to the new man (spiritual) nature as we mature and become more like Christ.
 
Apr 15, 2017
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#14
They knew of the sin nature,for they knew they had a choice between good and evil,and the spiritual law was there,love God,and love people,moral laws,but in the Old Testament they could not have the Spirit to cause them to completely overcome the flesh,so God had them do physical ordinances that they did have the power to uphold without the Spirit to be right with God.

That is why when Jesus and the saints rule over the heathen that God spared at the battle of Armageddon they have to keep the feast of tabernacles to be right with God,for they cannot be spiritual.

In the New Testament we can have the Spirit that gives us power to overcome the flesh,and abstain from sin,for a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts,and show the ways of the Spirit which there is no ways of the flesh there,and God will not allow them to be tempted above what they are able,and will give them an escape from the temptation so they can bear it.

So they do not have that pull as bad as the world so they can bear it,and they can escape it,so there is no excuse.

A Spirit led life will abstain from sin,and you are not a servant of sin,because you are not sinning,and a Spirit led life is not under the law because the person is not sinning so the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

If a person holds unto sin thinking they cannot beat it,or it does not affect their relationship with God,then they are under the law until they repent of it,and do not want it,and mean it.Repenting and not giving it up is not repenting.

We sin because we want to sin,not because we cannot abstain from sin,for we know good and evil,and if we do the evil we could of chose the good,but the world will do things of the flesh,and for those with Christ if they hate sin,and do not want sin,by the Spirit then they can abstain from sin,so if they sin,or hold unto sin,there is no excuse,for it is a matter that they did not allow the Spirit to lead them at that time wanting to enjoy a sin of the flesh.

The power is there to abstain from sin so physical ordinances are no longer necessary to be right with God,which Jesus took them out of the way nailing them to His cross.

But if we sin it can be forgiven,but the danger is for those that think that they cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect their relationship with God to justify they cannot abstain from sin,so many hold unto sin thinking they are alright,which the Bible says they have a form of godliness,but deny the power thereof,and then points out their sin.

God said at the last generation many will be pure in their own eyes,but not washed away from their filthiness.

We are not servants of sin because by the Spirit we can abstain from sin.
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#15
Likewise reckon (account) you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto (the) sin (while the sin nature is not dead, we are dead unto the sin nature by virtue of the Cross and our Faith continues in the Cross), but alive unto God (living the Resurrection Life) through Jesus Christ our Lord (refers to what He did at the Cross, which is the means of this Resurrection Life). Romans 6:11
For sin shall not have dominion over you (the sin nature will not have dominion over us if we as Believers continue to exercise Faith in the Cross of Christ; otherwise, the sin nature most definitely will have dominion over the Believer): for you are not under the Law (means that if we try to live this life by any type of law, no matter how good that law might be in its own right, we will conclude by the sin nature having dominion over us), but under Grace (the Grace of God flows to the Believer on an unending basis only as long as the Believer exercises Faith in Christ and what He did at the Cross; Grace is merely the Goodness of God exercised by and through the Holy Spirit, and given to underserving Saints). Romans 6:14
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#16
I understand you're thinking, and it is the understanding of the majority of the body of Christ. But the fact of the matter is the old man was crucified on the cross, the born again believer has no sin nature they have the nature of their Father which is in Christ.
Your posts about this issue are confusing. On one hand you are accepting the fact that believers have the sin nature, but here you are saying that they do not. The truth is that "the flesh" (sin nature) remains in all Christians, but the indwelling Holy Spirit empowers Christians to resist the flesh. However Christians can and do sin, and they must deal with their present sins according to Scripture. At the same time, because "the old man" was crucified, sin cannot have dominion over the believer.
 
Sep 3, 2016
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#17
​Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey (the Believers is either a slave to Christ, for that's what the word "servant" means, or else a slave to sin, which he will be if he doesn't keep his Faith in Christ and the Cross); whether of sin unto death (once again allow us to state the fact that if the Believer attempts to live for God by any method other than Faith in the Finished Work of Christ, the Believer will fail, no matter how hard he otherwise tries), or of obedience unto Righteousness? (The Believer is required to obey the Word of the Lord. He cannot do that within his own strength, but only by understanding that he receives all things through what Christ did at the Cross and his continued Faith in that Finished Work, even on a daily basis. Then the Holy Spirit, Who Alone can make us what we ought to be, can accomplish His work within our lives.) Romans 6:16

JSM
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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#18
On the question of - Does the Christian have the sin nature?

Since Adam's sin, all people that have been born (except Christ who was not born of Joseph) have been born with a "sin nature" (KJV - old man, old nature, "dead"). But when we are "born again," this old nature died with Christ on the cross and we are resurrected with Christ and now have a new nature (new man, new creature - KJV). The Holy Spirit living in our spirit then desires to control and live our new nature so that we can learn to live in victory over sin in our flesh.

A key is to realize there is a big difference between the flesh (Greek 'sarks') and the old nature (sin nature). The believer no longer has the old sin nature, but he very much still has the flesh. And this flesh is what causes the constant ongoing battle with sin.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#19
A key is to realize there is a big difference between the flesh (Greek 'sarks') and the old nature (sin nature). The believer no longer has the old sin nature, but he very much still has the flesh. And this flesh is what causes the constant ongoing battle with sin.
There is absolutely no difference. Just different terms for the same thing. The flesh is the old man, and while its power was destroyed at the Cross, it has not been eradicated in the believer.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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#20
There is absolutely no difference. Just different terms for the same thing. The flesh is the old man, and while its power was destroyed at the Cross, it has not been eradicated in the believer.
Flesh and old nature are very, very different!

Our old man (sin nature, old nature) was what was crucified with Christ. (Romans 6:6-8, Galatians 2:20), but nowhere is this said of the flesh (Greek 'sarks'). In fact as Paul says in Galations 2:20 we now "live in the flesh".

The Greek word for flesh (sarks) is never confused by Paul to mean "old nature" or "old man".