Free will and God's will

Magenta · Jan 18, 2018

Do Calvinists not believe they were chosen? Do Calvinists not believe they have no choice in the matter? Do Calvinists not believe that God has ordained everything? I think you misunderstand. Totally!

fatalism

noun 1. the acceptance of all things and events as inevitable; submission to fate

2. the doctrine that all events are subject to fate or inevitable predetermination.

Iconoclast · Jan 18, 2018

John146 said:

hello JN 146, enjoy this;
[h=1]Anthropomorphism[/h]

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Dictionaries - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology - Anthropomorphism
Anthropomorphism(Gk. anthropos [a[nqrwpo"] [human] + morphe [morfhv] [form]). Assignment of human attributes to nonhuman things. Biblical anthropomorphisms are used primarily in reference to God, who is neither visible ( John 1:18 ) nor human ( Num 23:19 ; 1 Sam 15:29 ). They are also used to assign human characteristics to angels ( Gen 16:7 ;18:1-19:1 ), Satan ( 1 Chron 21:1 ; Luke 13:16 ), and demons ( Luke 8:32 ). Evil is also personified, depicted as slaying ( Psalm 34:21 ) and pursuing ( Pr 13:21 ). Infrequently, human qualities are attributed to animals ( Nu 22:28-30 ) or vegetation ( Jud 9:7-15 ).
The use of human terminology to talk about God is necessary when we, in our limitations, wish to express truths about the Deity who by his very nature cannot be described or known. From biblical times to the present, people have felt compelled to explain what God is like, and no expressions other than human terms are able to convey any semblance of meaning to the indescribable. Thus, in Genesis alone God creates ( 1:1 ), moves ( 1:2 ), speaks ( 1:3 ), sees ( 1:4 ), divides ( 1:4 ), places ( 1:17 ), blesses ( 1:22 ), plants ( 2:8 ), walks ( 3:8 ), shuts ( 7:16 ), smells ( 8:21 ), descends ( 11:5 ), scatters ( 11:8 ), hears ( 21:17 ), tests ( 22:1 ), and judges ( 30:6 ).
Perhaps the most profound anthropomorphism is the depiction of God establishing a covenant, for the making of covenants is a very human activity. God enters into an agreement (covenant) with Israel at Sinai ( Exod 19:5-6 ), an outgrowth of an earlier covenant he had made with Abraham ( Gen 17:1-18 ). Later, this agreement is transformed into a new covenant through Jesus Christ ( Matt 26:26-29 ). Theologically, the legal compact initiated by God becomes the instrument through which he established an intimate and personal relationship with the people, both collectively and individually. Without anthropomorphic expressions, this theological reality would remain virtually inexplicable.
Anthropomorphisms also attribute human form and shape to God. God redeems Israel from Egyptian bondage with an outstretched arm ( Exod 6:6 ). Moses and his companions see God, and they eat and drink with him ( Exod 24:10-11 ). Other texts refer to the back, face, mouth, lips, ears, eyes, hand, and finger of God. The expression, "the Lord's anger burned" ( Exod 4:14 ) is interesting. A literal translation of the Hebrew is "the nose of the Lord burned."
Indirect anthropomorphic expressions also appear, such as the sword and arrows of the Lord and the throne and footstool of God.
Akin to anthropomorphisms are anthropopathisms (Gk. anthropos [a [nqrwpo"] + pathos [pavqo"] [passion]), used to refer to God's emotions. God is a jealous God ( Exod 20:5 ) who hates ( Am 5:21 ) and becomes angry ( Jer 7:20 ), but he also loves ( Exod 20:6 ) and is pleased ( Deu 28:63 ).
Anthropomorphisms and anthropopathisms are figures of speech that transmit theological truths about God to humankind. Only when taken literally are they misconstrued. Taken as metaphorical expressions, they provide by analogy a conceptual framework by which the God who is beyond our comprehension becomes a persona person whom we can love. In the New Testament the analogy becomes reality in the mystery of the incarnation ( John 1:1-18 ).
Keith N. Schoville
Bibliography. J. Barr, HBD, p. 32; E. W. Bullinger, Figures of Speech Used in the Bible; M. Eliade, ed., The Encyclopedia of Religion, vol. 1; W. E. Miles, ed., Mercer Dictionary of the Bible.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 18, 2018

Iconoclast said:

How about telling people how they are, instead of just stating what you think. You said you wanted to help someone a few posts ago. You will not help anyone if you come in just stating things as fact and telling a person they are wrong. You need to explain why they are wrong.

There you go thats better, I disagree though. This would be the opposite of fatalism.

God is perfect. And in perfect love, He offers his free gift of eternal life to all people. Failure to do so. Would mean his perfect love is not perfect but flawed.

Fatalism says God has determined a person is hell bound, without giving them any chance, ie, their future is determined, and their judgment is fatal.

will have to agree to disagree.

I believe God controls every single molecule. Yet I believe we all have free choice. I can chose freely without God giving up control.

It has everything to do with the question at hand.

A Muslim thinks they have control of their eternity, thus they are not fatalistic

I see you are just as arrogant as some of your brothers.

How about trying to discuss things, and stop with your silly puffed up arrogant attack. You will not get anyone to look at you in doing this.

While your trying to find some humility. I suggest you do what you think I need to do. And study,

We have differing views of what fatalism means, Maybe if we try to understand what the other thinks, we can actually have a discussion

either way attacking people like this is a futile endeavor if your going to try to help people.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 18, 2018

Magenta said:

Do Calvinists not believe they were chosen? Do Calvinists not believe they have no choice in the matter? Do Calvinists not believe that God has ordained everything? I think you misunderstand. Totally!

fatalism

noun 1. the acceptance of all things and events as inevitable; submission to fate

2. the doctrine that all events are subject to fate or inevitable predetermination.

And I need to study?? Lolol

joefizz · Jan 18, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Doesn't everybody?

Iconoclast · Jan 18, 2018

Magenta

Hello magenta...thanks for these good questions

\

Calvinists do believe in the biblical teaching of God's election of a multitude of sinners to be saved before the world was, yes...This election was based on the love and mercy of a Holy, and perfect God who has made Himself known to us in and through scripture quickened by the Spirit of God.

Biblical calvinists believe that God will transform and convert rebellious wicked sinners, giving them a new heart, in a supernatural work of salvation...resulting in them being made willing by the work of the Spirit of God; see here;
[h=2]Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling[/h][FONT=&quot]1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]( [/FONT]Romans 8:30;[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Romans 11:7; [FONT=&quot][/FONT]Ephesians 1:10, 11; [FONT=&quot][/FONT]2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; [FONT=&quot][/FONT]Ephesians 2:1-6; [FONT=&quot][/FONT]Acts 26:18; [FONT=&quot][/FONT]Ephesians 1:17, 18; [FONT=&quot][/FONT]Ezekiel 36:26; [FONT=&quot][/FONT]Deuteronomy 30:6; [FONT=&quot][/FONT]Ezekiel 36:27; [FONT=&quot][/FONT]Ephesians 1:19; [FONT=&quot][/FONT]Psalm 110:3;[FONT=&quot][/FONT]Song of Solomon 1:4[FONT=&quot] )[/FONT][FONT=&quot]2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )[/FONT]

[/QUOTE]
yes...correct...what is known as fatalism is the believe that the future is not directed by any deity, but mere chance, or impersonal forces, which biblical is a lie.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 18, 2018

joefizz said:

Yes, but that was not the point, He said I needed to study what fatalism was. That just made me laugh, especially when she put the defenition of fatalism up..

eternally-gratefull · Jan 18, 2018

FATEalism. A doctrine which states a persons FATE is determined or inevitable no matter what. (Ie, the person has no choice but to chose their fate that was predetermined)

A Muslim is not a fatalist.

A catholic is not a fatalist

An Armenian is not a fatalist.

Many christians who have placed their faith in the living God for salvation are not fatalist. Some, who have placed their faith in God are.

joefizz · Jan 18, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Hey...I'm supposed to get the laughs...!

eternally-gratefull · Jan 18, 2018

joefizz said:

Sometimes you have to share the ice cream bro

joefizz · Jan 18, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

hold on who got icecream???

(wonders what's going on here)

Magenta · Jan 18, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

joefizz said:

eternally-gratefull · Jan 18, 2018

joefizz said:

You did not get any?? Did Blue eat it all??

joefizz · Jan 18, 2018

Magenta said:

eternally-gratefull said:

Just got some icecream,I'm ok......!!!!

Nehemiah6 · Jan 18, 2018

Magenta said:

Do Calvinists not believe they were chosen? Do Calvinists not believe they have no choice in the matter? Do Calvinists not believe that God has ordained everything? I think you misunderstand. Totally!

fatalism

noun 1. the acceptance of all things and events as inevitable; submission to fate

2. the doctrine that all events are subject to fate or inevitable predetermination.

Pre-determinism would probably fit better, but Fatalism comes close.

Stunnedbygrace · Jan 18, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

No...I do not want to keep trying to discuss Calvinist. I was explaining that I didn't even know I was doing that! I was just saying that I believe Jesus when He said: I chose you, you did not choose Me, and that I believe Paul when he said there is no good thing in me. I can't help it if to believe Jesus and Paul and to discuss what they said makes you mad at me for being Calvinistic!

Jesus: You did not choose Me, I chose you.
EG: I chose Christ with my own free will.

This is how my mind comprehends what is happening. This is how my mind processes it, and so I am confused how you can believe Jesus that you did not choose Him, while also saying you chose Him.

Does that convey my confusion any more clearly? It is truly confusing to me. But I'm persistent. I will try very hard to understand another man if it is at all possible!

As to your question again, can I choose to murder or not murder - outwardly, I have not yet had a problem in this regard. I've never choked or shot anyone. But that is just mans definition of murder. It is not Gods' definition of murder for us who walk in the Spirit. So then, your question becomes: can I choose to get angry or choose not to get angry? So I answer again: if getting angry or not getting angry was simply a choice, why on earth would anyone EVER choose TO get angry??

eternally-gratefull · Jan 18, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

Same difference. A persons fate is predetermined.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 18, 2018

Stunnedbygrace said:

If jesus did not die for my sins, send the HS to convict me of my sins, Send the HS to help me understand the gospel when it was being shared with me. To show and convince me he was a God who could be trusted. I never would have the capability to repent and believe in him. Yet Jesus said the HS would convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment, and many still chose not to believe him. Is that Gods fault? Or did it go against Gods sovereignty? Is that not a God of love?

Iconoclast · Jan 18, 2018

eternally-gratefull

How about telling people how they are, instead of just stating what you think. You said you wanted to help someone a few posts ago. You will not help anyone if you come in just stating things as fact and telling a person they are wrong. You need to explain why they are wrong.

Click to expand...

yes..I have started to do that with you...keep reading....

Correct...it is quite the opposite...

God is perfect. And in perfect love, He offers his free gift of eternal life to all people

Click to expand...

.

No...not at all. Perhaps it would be helpful to read the bible before posting such false ideas.We do not tell a perfect God what He needs to do, to be perfect. God is not going to answer to you, it is the other way around my friend....

Again.....you do not dictate the terms to God. he reveals truth to us by His word. salvation is a Covenant transaction.

Fatalism says God

Click to expand...

Wrong from the start...fatalism says the future is determined by impersonal forces...

has determined a person is hell bound, without giving them any chance, ie, their future is determined, and their judgment is fatal

Click to expand...

.

Adams sin has locked in all who remain in Adam, to sin , death, and second death...
God was not joking when He declared to Adam, dying thou shalt surely die....
Do not be among those who blame God for mans sin...

or..we can dialogue and come to truth...scriptural truth....I would rather do that...

so do I....we choose all the time....but that has nothing to do with the condition of our will which is bound by our nature...let me ask you.....do you realize in heaven will will not be free to sin?

.
not if correctly understood...

A Muslim thinks they have control of their eternity, thus they are not fatalistic

Click to expand...

you are not correct here...that is not what they believe.

if someone disagrees with you, they are arrogant??? I see...interesting

How about trying to discuss things, and stop with your silly puffed up arrogant attack. You will not get anyone to look at you in doing this.

Click to expand...

I am discussing things just fine. When you cannot answer you claim the posters are arrogant. That is not the first time I have seen someone employ this strategy...man up..and offer a biblical rationale for your thoughts.

While your trying to find some humility. I suggest you do what you think I need to do. And study,

We have differing views of what fatalism means, Maybe if we try to understand what the other thinks, we can actually have a discussion

either way attacking people like this is a futile endeavor if your going to try to help people.

Click to expand...

I think we can let the reader decide who is doing what....try and answer biblically if you can. Your personal attack is not getting it done, especially when you have not even addressed the issues so far....

Iconoclast · Jan 18, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

instead of laughing...you should now try and grasp the actual definition...you have not done so, so far

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