Gods elects

[Speak2Me]

Because if you do not agree with him, then you are pompous and arrogant, and as they love to say :You really need to study the word”

That's strange, cause I see you doing this all the time.

I guess it's holy when you do it, huh?

 

[Speak2Me]

Yes, I know, you're still smug and unconcerned over your behavior. The above is worse than your initial remarks. I'm getting the full picture of what kind of person you are.

To be blunt myself, your gospel is truncated, censures God, and exalts man against him.

I can't hardly see how any person is being made fit for an appearance in his presence who holds to such disapproval of God and his ways as revealed in Scripture. It's a claim against the God one claims to know. It is a rejection of divine revelation due to one's disapproval thereof via one's own personal idea of what is fair. The clay telling the Potter how to be God. It's the Romans 9:20 mentality Paul spoke of, and quite frankly you're that man.

So predictable... everyone that disagrees with him is a bad person, has a bad attitude, & doesn't know squat about the Bible.

You have a lotta nerve calling someone "smug and unconcerned over their behavior".

 

[1ofthem]

Have you ever seen OH "study?" He's done lots of "studies" on this site. None of them were studying. They were teachings. He was the teacher and everyone else was the student.

He will pull out old notes he had on Romans 9, and answer questions to what he said, but he does NOT study with people. There is a completely different feel with studying and being teached-at. He's the teach-at type.

And I say this as someone who has learned from him, but I really did get I was supposed to be the student and he was the teacher. Whenever someone disagrees, after a bit, he tends to tell the person they don't have to stay, and then goes back to teaching from his notes. It's like disagreeing with your Semantics professor. You can disagree all you want, but the test is only about what the professor believes, not what you disagree with, so might as well sit back and accept it. This isn't studying. It's teaching!

No, I've never actually seen a study he has done.

I am interested in Romans 9, so I am rereading it, and trying to keep up with the other thread about it...I've only got to look at the thread briefly, so far.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Well, this is really discouraging that people are shying away from Romans 9....Maybe everyone is looking it up online right now to see what their favorite theologians had to say about it...so I'll come back later to see if there is any discussion going on about it...because I would really like to see an open minded discussion over it...

Without resorting to theologians here is the gist of Romans 9:

ROMANS 9 (KJB)

PAUL’S DEEP SORROW FOR THE LOST CONDITION OF ISRAEL
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

ISRAEL GOD’S CHOSEN NATION TO BRING FORTH MESSIAH
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

ONLY BELIEVING ISRAEL IS THE TRUE ISRAEL
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

ISAAC AND JACOB CHOSEN TO CONTINUE THE LINE OF ABRAHAM
For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

GOD SOVEREIGNLY CHOOSES INDIVIDUALS TO FULFIL HIS PURPOSES
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

[Note: This is NOT for salvation but for God’s eternal purposes. For salvation God says this: For God hath concluded them all [of Israel] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all (Rom 11:32)]

MAN CANNOT DISPUTE WITH GOD ABOUT HIS CHOICES
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

GOD PREDESTINES SOME (JEWS AND GENTILES) TO BE GLORIFIED
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

[Note: This is the biblical reason for predestination, which is “prepared unto glory” or glorification]

ONLY A BELIEVING REMNANT OF ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

GENTILES ARE JUSTIFIED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

THE WORKS OF THE LAW CANNOT SAVE ISRAELITES
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

CHRIST IS A STUMBLING STONE TO UNBELIEVING JEWS
For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[notuptome]

He who "knows the end from the beginning" already knew in advance who would accept Christ. There's nothing about you he doesn't already foreknow.

Don't make that to say that it is all predestined or you shift your personal responsibility for your sin to God and not receiving it upon yourself. Adam received the knowledge of good and evil in the garden as a result of the fall. This knowledge now requires Adam and his race to choose between good and evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Magenta]

I think it can. Wouldn't the fact that no one can come unless drawn prove this?
But, then this is off topic? Which we don't really know unless we watch, huh?
It does go with the title though.

 

[1ofthem]

Without resorting to theologians here is the gist of Romans 9:

ROMANS 9 (KJB)

PAUL’S DEEP SORROW FOR THE LOST CONDITION OF ISRAEL
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

ISRAEL GOD’S CHOSEN NATION TO BRING FORTH MESSIAH
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

ONLY BELIEVING ISRAEL IS THE TRUE ISRAEL
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

ISAAC AND JACOB CHOSEN TO CONTINUE THE LINE OF ABRAHAM
For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

GOD SOVEREIGNLY CHOOSES INDIVIDUALS TO FULFIL HIS PURPOSES
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

[Note: This is NOT for salvation but for God’s eternal purposes. For salvation God says this: For God hath concluded them all [of Israel] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all (Rom 11:32)]

MAN CANNOT DISPUTE WITH GOD ABOUT HIS CHOICES
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

GOD PREDESTINES SOME (JEWS AND GENTILES) TO BE GLORIFIED
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

[Note: This is the biblical reason for predestination, which is “prepared unto glory” or glorification]

ONLY A BELIEVING REMNANT OF ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

GENTILES ARE JUSTIFIED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

THE WORKS OF THE LAW CANNOT SAVE ISRAELITES
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

CHRIST IS A STUMBLING STONE TO UNBELIEVING JEWS
For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Amen...Thanks for the post and explanations...God bless you.

 

[UnderGrace]

untenable doctrine

Untenable is absolutely correct!!

Romans 9 is in fact a much abused chapter to support an untenable doctrine -- unconditional election. Any Bible doctrine must take ALL Scripture into account, particularly all Gospel truth when it applies to the salvation of souls.

It is IMPOSSIBLE that God would elect some for salvation and condemn the majority to damnation. But that is precisely what Reformed Theology teaches. So the questions to ask Calvinists (which should be answered from Scripture) are these:

1. Are all human beings sinners by birth and by choice?

2. Knowing this did God have a plan of salvation for mankind even before creation?

3. Did that plan include the necessity of the Lamb of God taking away THE SIN OF THE WORLD?

4. Does the Bible say this or not :For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.?

5. Should that one statement by the Savior not be sufficient to NULLIFY unconditional election?

 

[UnderGrace]

Romans 9 is clearly understood when a person takes off their internal biased lens of conditional election.

Why another personal attack? If you are NOT smug, prideful and conceited go ahead and provide an exposition of Romans 9 for all to see.

 

[stonesoffire]

I watched about 1/3 of the video. Is not someone I could sit under. He teaches serving God, not Sonship. The servants will not inherit the house, for in the Kingdom of heaven it's the Sons that Jesus brings to glory.

However, there we will serve one another out of love.

 

[stonesoffire]

Yep, we are groupies. We attackpeople who disagree with us.

Oh wait. But we do not, We disagree with each other on things, so that can not be it!!

Uh, did my post offend you EG? If so I apologize.

 

[stonesoffire]

The subject is election, please rebuttal from the scripture. God bless

Celib

I see the elect to be Jesus in Isaiah. What I believe about being chosen, is His seal on our Spirit. He calls us, we respond. He chooses us with His royal stamp, the seal, and we learn the faithful life through the ministry of Holy Spirit. All igifts from the Father to us through His Son, Jesus. And we are clothed with His Presence, His robe of righteousness draped all around us. Making up for our failure to live fully up to His glory. We fall short.

Ever in Him, His armor of Victory we walk in.

 

[7777pinacled]

Don't make that to say that it is all predestined or you shift your personal responsibility for your sin to God and not receiving it upon yourself. Adam received the knowledge of good and evil in the garden as a result of the fall. This knowledge now requires Adam and his race to choose between good and evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Actually, No, the man was not decieved.

 

[Speak2Me]

Don't make that to say that it is all predestined or you shift your personal responsibility for your sin to God and not receiving it upon yourself. Adam received the knowledge of good and evil in the garden as a result of the fall. This knowledge now requires Adam and his race to choose between good and evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Would you care to explain how you make such a claim?

I don't see the connection.

I have no intent to say anything of the kind.

 

[Magenta]

Don't make that to say that it is all predestined or you shift your personal responsibility for your sin to God and not receiving it upon yourself. Adam received the knowledge of good and evil in the garden as a result of the fall. This knowledge now requires Adam and his race to choose between good and evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Wouldn't it be more correct to say the fall was the result
of Adam receiving the knowledge of good and evil?

 

[stonesoffire]

See here is the first lie

He claims a group of people who believes in salvation by GRACE alone through FAITH ALONE via free will believes they had something to do with their salvation, and we are the reason God said us.

That is not true. But he can not own up to this FACT. Thus when someone tries to tell him this, or explain it to him, He gets upset.

He does not even understand the argument, how can he claim to know what the argument is if he does not even understand it.

It is HIS VIEW, he only wants to argue HIS VIEW.

Wait a second EG. We, you and I are in His group. I don't understand this argument.

His post was true.

 

[Magenta]

Wait a second EG. We, you and I are in His group. I don't understand this argument.

His post was true.

Preacher is a "not by works" guy, yes

But also hard-core Calvinist.

Why anyone wants to say we have nothing to do with our salvation, when it is incumbent upon us to repent of our rebellion against God, and come to believe the gospel, puzzles me. This does not take anything away from God, Who desires all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth. To the Calvinist, when Scriptures regarding the issue say "all" or the "the whole world," they claim it applies only to them (the elect), and not "all" or "the whole world." They will say, if Christ died for the sins of the whole world, then everyone is forgiven, but we know we must repent and believe to be reconciled to God, and attain to life ever after, for those who do not repent and believe, pass into the second death. Then they will say, if Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and unbelievers are not forgiven, then it is like double jeopardy (I think that is the right legal term) on judgement day, but that is not true either, for the unbelievers have turned down the help of the Advocate, and stand before the Judge alone, pleading their case based on their own merits, void of faith, in the flesh, with works that are as filthy rags, because they do not have the covering of Christ's blood for the propitiation of their sins.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Wouldn't it be more correct to say the fall was the result of Adam receiving the knowledge of good and evil?

No actually it would not. Scripture says that For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners...(Rom 5:19).

 

[stonesoffire]

Preacher is a "not by works" guy, yes

But also hard-core Calvinist.

Why anyone wants to say we have nothing to do with our salvation, when it is incumbent upon us to repent of our rebellion against God, and come to believe the gospel, puzzles me. This does not take anything away from God, Who desires all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth. To the Calvinist, when Scriptures regarding the issue say "all" or the "the whole world," they claim it applies only to them (the elect), and not "all" or "the whole world." They will say, if Christ died for the sins of the whole world, then everyone is forgiven, but we know we must repent and believe to be reconciled to God, and attain to life ever after, for those who do not repent and believe, pass into the second death. Then they will say, if Christ died for the sins of the whole world, and unbelievers are not forgiven, then it is like double jeopardy (I think that is the right legal term) on judgement day, but that is not true either, for the unbelievers have turned down the help of the Advocate, and stand before the Judge alone, pleading their case based on their own merits, void of faith, in the flesh, with works that are as filthy rags, because they do not have the covering of Christ's blood for the propitiation of their sins.

Hi Magenta

I was only responding to this post that preacher made. It's the one that EG answered.

Ive never studied doctrines and I have no desire to do so. Just the scriptures with word studies being my method. The first sentence is something you disagree with?

We cannot repent until we are drawn to the Father. The drawing would be the hearing of the gospel would it not? And it's a specific time of an event that our ears are opened, true?

I see very little of our doing other than responding yes. Then chains break.

Thats is what I see in preachers post and am in agreement. The other points of the calvinists that you wrote are not mentioned in his post.

I wasn't aware that EG had a disagreement with Preacher and the post took me by surprise.








[h=2]

Re: Gods elects[/h]

Originally Posted by preacher4truth

Here's the whole thing in a nutshell and why people get so emotional over this:

- One group is dead set on proving God chose or saved them because of something they did, like responding, or whatever, in total defiance and loathing of Biblical unconditional election. This is all contrary to 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 teaching and other Scriptures. Most believe they had inherent faith and voted themselves into heaven. This is contrary to 2 Peter 1:1, Ephesians 1:19.

- The other group is dead set to prove from Scripture that God did all the saving, from choosing whom he willed to save to glorification and everything else in between, based on his purpose and will, and based in absolutely nothing in man. It is Soli Deo Gloria. This truth is witnessed throughout Scripture and is not erased by John 3:16 and a slough of "whosoever" verses no matter how hard the others try to pit Scripture against Scripture.

The fight is summed up in this: One group believes they had something to do with their salvation and reason as to why God saved them, the other group gives all the glory to God. Battling for the former over the latter is absurd to put it lightly, it is Romans 9:20. But that is what they are doing, it's a belligerency to prove they had something to do with why God chose them, or more plainly, why they are saved.




See here is the first lie

He claims a group of people who believes in salvation by GRACE alone through FAITH ALONE via free will believes they had something to do with their salvation, and we are the reason God said us.

That is not true. But he can not own up to this FACT. Thus when someone tries to tell him this, or explain it to him, He gets upset.

He does not even understand the argument, how can he claim to know what the argument is if he does not even understand it.

It is HIS VIEW, he only wants to argue HIS VIEW.​

 

[Magenta]

No actually it would not. Scripture says that For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners...(Rom 5:19).

All of creation fell as a result of Adam's sin. That did not happen before he ate of the forbidden tree. When would you say he received knowledge of good and evil, then? When he ate, or after the fall of all creation, which was a direct result of his disobedience by eating the forbidden fruit? It seems you are saying the latter.