Prophets Amongst Us

[plainguy]

dodge

does it matter if there were 6 prophets mentionned or 607 mentionned in the NT?

the reason we have the major and minor prophets in the OT is because that WAS the main way God spoke to His people

we each have the Holy Spirit indwelling us now and we no longer need an intermediary in that sense PLUS we have the Bible which, if actually believed and followed, will ensure the truth of what it says

anyone trying to get around that, will simply start twisting the word, adding to it or subtracting from it

love? you know, the way some people act (don't mean you) around here with the name calling etc...while basically trying to lay waste to what anyone else states, is anything but love

love is waxing cold...Jesus people would know those who are His by His love, but nowadays, it seems that has been changed to people will know those who are His by their perfect doctrine and desire to spew actual hatred at those who disagree with it
(again not you here...fine to disagree, but discuss it...not accuse and shoot Bible arrows (verses that people think prove them right)

I will have to read your response later cause we are almost out the door here...but this is a quick response in the meantime

No probs . Just stating how I understand and hopefully it came across without malice. For the record, I honestly wouldn't mind being wrong on some things. I've been wondering lately if most of us here wouldn't actually like many of those with whom we disagree with on this forum and I've concluded that most of us would, if we knew each other personally and had had the opportunity to meet. At least I would hope this to be the case. If I believed otherwise, I would have to consider any exchange(s) here a complete waste of time. To God and God alone be the glory in Jesus Christ

 

[plainguy]

ps plainguy

possible to have some paragraphs in your next long post?

helps with reading

thank you

What's a para ... paragr ... or whatever you call it ?

 

[miknik5]

Can someone please expound Luke 16:16


thanks

what does “from the time of __________...
until


usually mean?

 

[Deade]

Hi Nehemiah6,

You posted as follows:

Then there's the two witnesses of Revelation that are prophets.


"Yes that is true. They are both witnesses and prophets, and at least one of them is Elijah, while the other is more than likely Moses. But these men were ALREADY prophets and represent the Law and the Prophets. They met with Jesus at His transfiguration, and they are sent as witnesses primarily to Israel during the reign of the Antichrist."

What makes you think anyone will come back from the dead. Moses and Elijah were taken by God (Elijah in a fiery chariot) but, in scripture, it doesn't say where. Jesus said that no man has ascended to heaven. John 3:13: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”

Don't give me a reference to the transfiguration when Jesus appeared with Moses and Elijah. This is an example of a vision. But a vision is just a vision, we should not draw doctrine from them. All the patriarchs in Hebrews 11 are still waiting to get to heaven.

The two witnesses are coming in the spirit of Elijah, just as John the Baptist. The reference to Elijah coming is a faith movement not just a single person. There was more than one Elijah type that came in the first century. It was God stirring up faith among the people. Think about it.

Yours,

Deade

 

[Deade]

Can someone please expound Luke 16:16


thanks

what does “from the time of __________...
until


usually mean?

Hi miknik5,

The phrase "The Law and the Prophets" is what the Jews called the Torah. Their scriptures. That is all it means.

Yours,

Deade

 

[Nehemiah6]

What makes you think anyone will come back from the dead.

1. The OT and NT saints are very much alive in Heaven, and worshiping God (Heb 12:22-24). So nobody is coming back FROM THE DEAD.

2. John the Baptist came in the spirit and power of Elijah, but he was NOT a reincarnation of Elijah. Indeed he plainly declared that he was NOT Elijah.

And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? [Elijah] And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? [Christ] And he answered, No. (John 1:21).

3. Elijah MUST return to earth before the Day of the LORD (which is the Great Tribulation).

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. (Malachi 4:5,6)

4. The Day of the LORD is triggered by the Abomination of Desolation which is set up by the Antichrist (the Beast of Revelation 13). The time periods mentioned in Rev 11 and 13 are identical. meaning that these two witnesses testify during the reign of the Antichrist.

But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. (Rev 11:2)

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (Rev 13:5).

5. There is absolutely no basis for claiming that the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration was "a vision" (not a real-time event). That is merely your assumption, but Scripture says that they actually appeared "in glory" (glorified) when Christ was transfigured, and SPOKE WITH HIM regarding His decease (exodus).

And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: [Elijah] Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem. (Luke 9:30,31)

6. The miracles which the two witnesses (who are prophets) perform most closely resemble the miracles which Moses and Elijah performed while on earth.

These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. (Rev 11:6)

 

[miknik5]

Hi miknik5,

The phrase "The Law and the Prophets" is what the Jews called the Torah. Their scriptures. That is all it means.

Yours,

Deade

really?
Yet the LORD will send “prophets” so that the guilt blood of all the prophets who were killed because of their testimony will fall on all who do the same thing to those “prophets/witnesses” who come bringing ONE TRUTH and TESTIMONY of JESUS


what do you think these will be testifying to?


you need to read the full of that chapter in Matthew where the LORD says that HE will avenge the deaths of all those “prophets”


those “prophets” will rise and testify to ONE TRUTH



CHRIST JESUS and THE GOSPEL

 

[miknik5]

Matthew 23


jesus when he testified of JOHN did so for the purpose that men might believe JOHN’s testimony of JESUS

John was just a temporary light pointing to Jesus

we are all temporary lights with the purpose of pointing all to JESUS as HIS witnesses and we will testify to ONE TESTIMONY

JESUS


It is why when the Pharisees who did not believe spoke hastily and said HE casts out demons by beelzebub that Jesus said the sons of the kingdom will be the judges

 

[miknik5]

Violent men don’t want to hear the message

and proud men who think they are so wise but don’t realize that when they add more to the story of our salvation in by and through Jesus Christ that they are being nothing more than foolish

 

[Nehemiah6]

You're apparently referring to 1 Corinthians 13:8, and misquoting it badly. It says "the perfect", not "the complete Bible". Everything else you base on this assertion is therefore without merit.

First of all that is 1 Cor 13:10, not 13:8. And I am not misquoting but INTERPRETING CORRECTLY what that passage is about -- THAT WHICH IS COMPLETE IN ALL ITS PARTS (PERFECT) not "He who is perfect".

[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]

Strong's Concordance (5046)
teleios: having reached its end, i.e. complete, by ext. perfect
Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: teleios
Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
Short Definition: perfect, full-grown

Definition: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

Do we have a complete Bible? Absolutely.
So do we need more prophecies? Absolutely not.​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
​

 

[Deade]

Hi Nehemiah6 ,

Your point: 5. When you said the transfiguration was not a vision, then how did Christ get glorified being He wasn't dead yet?

Yours,

Deade

 

[Speak2Me]

This is frequently how that passage in 1 Corinthians 13 is interpreted. But if your read it carefully it does not say "when He who is perfect is come" but "when THAT which is perfect is come". The Greek word for perfect can mean either perfect, or mature, or complete, and the logical interpretation would be "complete". That ties in with the cessation of prophecy, tongues, and (supernatural) knowledge, all given by the direct action of the Holy Spirit on those having these gifts. If the Bible is complete (which we all agree to) then is there any further need for prophecy? The whole tenor or Revelation is that these prophecies give us a preview of God's plans, judgments, and interventions until the New Heavens and the New Earth are established.

Yes that is true. They are both witnesses and prophets, and at least one of them is Elijah, while the other is more than likely Moses. But these men were ALREADY prophets and represent the Law and the Prophets. They met with Jesus at His transfiguration, and they are sent as witnesses primarily to Israel during the reign of the Antichrist.

Well the best evidence is Revelation 22:18,19: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The best way to understand this -- in light of all that has been revealed in Revelation -- is that there cannot be any more prophecies added to the Bible after this book. Furthermore, if any man would claim to be a prophet, we would all have to take his words as EQUAL TO Holy Writ. Are you prepared to do that? Joseph Smith and Mohammad both claimed to have received Divine revelations through the angel Gabriel. Do Christians accept their words as being directly from God?

Here's the divisions of the chapter.

1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
​
Knowing & prophesying in part means we're doing it with our spirit still in the body of flesh.

"When the perfect(completion) comes" is when we receive our new body, complete, no longer needing spiritual assistance from the gifts to do anything.

"Now" & "then"(V12) is speaking to the partial & the completion of the full changing to being the Sons of God.

"then face to face" with Jesus, where He is.

All this context(blue) is together as one as the NASB divided the topics accordingly.

If you don't believe me, fine, read all the commentaries, for they agree.

 

[Dino246]

First of all that is 1 Cor 13:10, not 13:8. And I am not misquoting but INTERPRETING CORRECTLY what that passage is about -- THAT WHICH IS COMPLETE IN ALL ITS PARTS (PERFECT) not "He who is perfect".

Granted, those words are in verse 10; my mistake.

The provision of a Strong's concordance entry is not interpretation. You still have not established that this passage is talking about Scripture. Paul simply does not identify Scripture as the subject. I believe the passage makes far better sense if it is talking about the perfected state of redeemed humanity.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

What's a para ... paragr ... or whatever you call it ?

not sure if you are joking?

anyway......

your post with no paragraph

No probs . Just stating how I understand and hopefully it came across without malice. For the record, I honestly wouldn't mind being wrong on some things. I've been wondering lately if most of us here wouldn't actually like many of those with whom we disagree with on this forum and I've concluded that most of us would, if we knew each other personally and had had the opportunity to meet. At least I would hope this to be the case. If I believed otherwise, I would have to consider any exchange(s) here a complete waste of time. To God and God alone be the glory in Jesus Christ

your post with paragraphs


No probs . Just stating how I understand and hopefully it came across without malice. For the record, I honestly wouldn't mind being wrong on some things.

I've been wondering lately if most of us here wouldn't actually like many of those with whom we disagree with on this forum and I've concluded that most of us would, if we knew each other personally and had had the opportunity to meet.

At least I would hope this to be the case. If I believed otherwise, I would have to consider any exchange(s) here a complete waste of time. To God and God alone be the glory in Jesus Christ


spaces....in between chunks of thought or even between a few sentences


la

ter

 

[Nehemiah6]

Granted, those words are in verse 10; my mistake.

The provision of a Strong's concordance entry is not interpretation. You still have not established that this passage is talking about Scripture. Paul simply does not identify Scripture as the subject. I believe the passage makes far better sense if it is talking about the perfected state of redeemed humanity.

As already pointed out, 1 Cor 13 consists of THREE segments, each one dealing with a separate topic:

Verses 1-7 -- the supremacy of agape love (charity) as the greatest of spiritual gifts.

Verses 8-10 -- the completion and perfection of Scripture. ["THAT which is complete" not "He who is perfect".]

Verses 11-13 -- the completion and perfect of the saints.

Unfortunately, it has generally been assumed that verses 8-13 are one unit, but they are not. Why would Paul select the three spiritual gifts which consist of Divine revelations and say that they ONLY would cease upon the perfection of the saints, when as a matter of fact, the saints are perfected and glorified at the Resurrection/Rapture, and there will be NO NEED OF ANY SPIRITUAL GIFTS after that? The Church will be in Heaven and perfected.

 

[Dino246]

As already pointed out, 1 Cor 13 consists of THREE segments, each one dealing with a separate topic:

Verses 1-7 -- the supremacy of agape love (charity) as the greatest of spiritual gifts.

Verses 8-10 -- the completion and perfection of Scripture. ["THAT which is complete" not "He who is perfect".]

Verses 11-13 -- the completion and perfect of the saints.

Unfortunately, it has generally been assumed that verses 8-13 are one unit, but they are not. Why would Paul select the three spiritual gifts which consist of Divine revelations and say that they ONLY would cease upon the perfection of the saints, when as a matter of fact, the saints are perfected and glorified at the Resurrection/Rapture, and there will be NO NEED OF ANY SPIRITUAL GIFTS after that? The Church will be in Heaven and perfected.

Repeating your assertion that verses 8 - 10 are about Scripture doesn't prove that they are about Scripture. You're still using circular reasoning, and it's still invalid.

Paul didn't say that only those three gifts would cease. He said those three gifts would cease. Inserting words into Scripture so that the verses match your views is called eisegesis.

 

[plainguy]

not sure if you are joking?

Yeah,

I

was

joking

 

[Nehemiah6]

Paul didn't say that only those three gifts would cease. He said those three gifts would cease. Inserting words into Scripture so that the verses match your views is called eisegesis.

And nit-picking does not support your case either. While the word "only" is not there, the fact is that ONLY three gifts are mentioned. And that is significant. Had Paul been talking about the perfection of the saints, ALL gifts would have been mentioned. But people believe what they want to believe, so I am not surprised at your nit-picking.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Yeah,

I

was

joking

LOL!

good

otherwise

I

would

send

you

a

brochure

for

grade

school

 

[garee]

Can someone please expound Luke 16:16


thanks

what does “from the time of __________...
until


usually mean?

I would offer. The key to what does “from the time of __________...until . Begins with the idea of not serving two masters .Masters are teachers. The Jews were having that authority as master in respect to what they called a "law of the fathers" which were the private interpretations or commentaries of men, the fathers. They held their private interpretation above that which is written God's interpretation the Bible making the faith of God our one master without effect

They were telling the Son of man he had no authority of men assigned by them .

In effect Jesus was saying if believing all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptur) the living abiding word as the master which dwells in the believer not of the believer was used successfully up until then .What changed? Or who died and made the gods in the likeness of men?

What was highly esteemed in respect to the law of the fathers (two kinds of fathers) among men is abomination in the sight of God.

The law of the fathers required a sign that men did walk by sight to prove their false hope in trusting in the their flesh as that seen acting as if the kingdom of God was of this world and we should wrestle against flesh and blood.. Kill the mis-conceived competition as in out of sight out of mind.

The true fathers walked by faith (the unseen) believing or exercising the faith that comes from hearing our one Master in heaven as in all things written in the law and the prophets.(sola scriptura)

We cannot serve God as the infallible interpreter as the one mediator between God and man, not seen, and man seen .we either walk by faith mixing it in what we do hear or see or we walk by sight after the three courses of the world ,according to the god of it.

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1Jo 2:16

He called those kind of fathers that did walk by sight looking to man outwardly a brood of vipers seeing it was their goal to make all things written in the law and the prophets (Sola scriptura )the master without effect

No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed "among men" is "abomination in the sight of God".The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.Luk 16:17

Concluding with all that is written in the law and the fathers(sola scriptura) the two witness in Revelation will continue to bring the good news until the last day, the day the heavens and earth pass away and the new appears.