Prophets Amongst Us

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Mar 28, 2016
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5. There is absolutely no basis for claiming that the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration was "a vision" (not a real-time event). That is merely your assumption, but Scripture says that they actually appeared "in glory" (glorified) when Christ was transfigured, and SPOKE WITH HIM regarding His decease (exodus).
Moses represents the law of God, Elijah the power of God as the prophets of God .The law and the prophets.. The two witnesses (sola scriptura)

It was a real time vision where another spirit brings information in to show and give the spiritual understanding of that without. We use that seen the temporal, to give us the unseen spiritual (faith principle) as a understanding , eternal .

Just as was the experience of the Son of man . But the Son of man never moved one inch . He did not believe the father of lies but over and over proclaimed the gospel, as it is written again as it written again .The vision as a sign and lying wonder went away.. Just as did Moses and Elijah.

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him. Mat 4:7


And I would offer no one knows what we will be when we do receive the promise of our new bodies, we have many clues ...neither male nor female, Jew or gentile, we will be called His bride. There is no corruption and therefore no need to procreate. We will have no memory of the things here,they will never come to mind.etc.

But to say corrupted flesh and blood is the new order would be to say that corruption does inherit the incorruptible. We are born again of the incorruptible seed . Even the Son of man said his flesh profits for nothing but rather that it is the unseen Spirit that can does work in the believer to both will and do His good pleasure . I think you could say as the meat of his word. Not looking to the flesh as the woman below who did walk by sight venerating the flesh .

And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.Luk 11:27
 

Dino246

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And nit-picking does not support your case either. While the word "only" is not there, the fact is that ONLY three gifts are mentioned. And that is significant. Had Paul been talking about the perfection of the saints, ALL gifts would have been mentioned. But people believe what they want to believe, so I am not surprised at your nit-picking.
I also don't see why the Holy Spirit would lead Paul to write at least 39 verses that would only be relevant for about 40 years at the outside. You might as well cut chapter 14 out of your Bible.

I'm keeping it in mine, because it is still relevant.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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I also don't see why the Holy Spirit would lead Paul to write at least 39 verses that would only be relevant for about 40 years at the outside. You might as well cut chapter 14 out of your Bible.

I'm keeping it in mine, because it is still relevant.
Why was 1 Corinthians 14 written in the first place? There were those in the church at Corinth who were abusing the gift of tongues and elevating it far above its actual position among the gifts. So this was a CORRECTIVE chapter. But genuine tongues did cease and they are not mentioned by the Apostolic Fathers (1st and 2nd centuries).

The Montanists revived them in the 2nd century, but Christians generally did not accept the teachings of the Montanists regarding new revelations and tongues. Here is an excerpt regarding Montanus from Historiae Ecclesiasticae quoted by Eusebius.

There is said to be a certain village called Ardabau in that part of Mysia, which borders upon Phrygia. There first, they say, when Gratus was proconsul of Asia, a recent convert, Montanus by name, through his unquenchable desire for leadership, gave the adversary opportunity against him. And he became beside himself, and being suddenly in a sort of frenzy and ecstasy, he raved, and began to babble and utter strange things, prophesying in a manner contrary to the constant custom of the Church handed down by tradition from the beginning.


Then it was in the early 20th century when the Azusa Street Revival occurred and the modern Tongues Movement began. In the interim there was no evidence of Christians in general having the genuine gift of tongues.
 
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Waggles

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Then it was in the early 20th century when the Azusa Street Revival occurred and the modern Tongues Movement began. In the interim there was no evidence of Christians in general having the genuine gift of tongues.
Complete rubbish where did you look this nonsense up - on the internet?
Get some real Christian Church history before you post dribble.
 
O

OtherWay210

Guest
There is the Prophets of God in the Bible. There are No "New prophets". John the Baptist,i think is considered in the bible as the last one Malachi 3:1 sent . Aside from Moses writings about Christ, Christ was called Thee prophet ..


If you use the word to mean teachers of the prophets of the OT , it can be used in that sense .


There is always a remnant, to carry The Truth, God ensures there area always some people bringing the truth to all generations .


Romans 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
 
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Waggles

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The gift of prophecy spoken by those who operate this gift of the Holy Spirit in our worship meetings is not new revelations that are beyond the scriptures.
We are not claiming to be like Isaiah or Nehemiah or Micah and give a new message that will become canon.
Rather prophecy is "inspired speaking" wherein Jesus and our Father talk to the church in communicating to exhort us, to encourage us, to remind us, to guide us, to warn us.

We are clay and subject to our weaknesses and God helps to focus us on him and our walk in the Spirit.

Time must be very short for the world because recently prophecies have tended to iterate the necessity to preach the gospel of salvation and to be busy about this.
I have more sheep to come into the fold and you need to go out and preach to all and sundry as time is short and you must go out and represent my Son Jesus and the gospel.

diversities of tongues
interpretation
prophecy
all done decently and in order in accord with the scriptures

Acts 2:38 is where it all starts
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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Complete rubbish where did you look this nonsense up - on the internet?
Get some real Christian Church history before you post dribble.
Why don't you show us from History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff that tongues were prevalent throughout Church history?

HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*
 

Budman

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Mar 9, 2014
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What would we even need prophets today for?

We have God's Word (the Bible), so, what exactly else do we need to know that is not already contained in scripture?
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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And nit-picking does not support your case either. While the word "only" is not there, the fact is that ONLY three gifts are mentioned. And that is significant. Had Paul been talking about the perfection of the saints, ALL gifts would have been mentioned. But people believe what they want to believe, so I am not surprised at your nit-picking.
But The Holy Spirit does move in people with evidence which you are denying. If you have never witnessed a move of God I am sorry but your continued denial of his power amounts to one thing. I am taking this personally because you are calling me a liar (or worse). Do you accuse the Holy Spirit in me of being some other manifestation of power?
 

FlSnookman7

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Jun 27, 2015
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From wikipedia so....


[h=3]400 to 1900[edit][/h]
  • 5th century St. Patrick of Ireland (c. 387–493), in The Confession of St. Patrick, records hearing a strange language being prayed by the Holy Spirit in a dream. St. Patrick says in his book:
And another night – God knows, I do not, whether within me or beside me – most words which I heard and could not understand, except at the end of the speech it was represented thus: 'He who gave his life for you, he it is who speaks within you.' And thus I awoke, joyful.[SUP][18][/SUP]
And on a second occasion I saw Him praying within me, and I was as it were, inside my own body, and I heard Him above me – that is, above my inner self. He was praying powerfully with sighs. And in the course of this I was astonished and wondering, and I pondered who it could be who was praying within me. But at the end of the prayer it was revealed to me that it was the Spirit. And so I awoke and remembered the Apostle's words: "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we know not how to pray as we ought. But the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for utterance [Romans 8:26]." And again: "The Lord our advocate intercedes for us [Romans 8:27].[SUP][18][/SUP]
  • 12th century – Bernard of Clairvaux, commenting on Mark 16:17 ("they will speak in new tongues"), asked: "For who is there that seems to have these signs of the faith, without which no one, according to this Scripture, shall be saved?"[SUP][19][/SUP] He explained that these signs were no longer present because there were greater miracles – the transformed lives of believers.[SUP][20][/SUP]
  • 12th century – Hildegard of Bingen is reputed to have spoken and sung in tongues. Her spiritual songs were referred to by contemporaries as "concerts in the Spirit."[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]
  • 1265 – Thomas Aquinas wrote about the gift of tongues in the New Testament, which he understood to be an ability to speak every language, given for the purposes of missionary work. He explained that Christ did not have this gift because his mission was to the Jews, "nor does each one of the faithful now speak save in one tongue"; for "no one speaks in the tongues of all nations, because the Church herself already speaks the languages of all nations".[SUP][21][/SUP]
  • 15th century – The Moravians are referred to by detractors as having spoken in tongues. John Roche, a contemporary critic, claimed that the Moravians "commonly broke into some disconnected Jargon, which they often passed upon the vulgar, 'as the exuberant and resistless Evacuations of the Spirit'".[SUP][22][/SUP]
  • 17th century – The French Prophets: The Camisards also spoke sometimes in languages that were unknown: "Several persons of both Sexes," James Du Bois of Montpellier recalled, "I have heard in their Extasies pronounce certain words, which seem'd to the Standers-by, to be some Foreign Language." These utterances were sometimes accompanied by the gift of interpretation exercised, in Du Bois' experience, by the same person who had spoken in tongues.[SUP][23][/SUP][SUP][24][/SUP]
  • 17th century – Early Quakers, such as Edward Burrough, make mention of tongues speaking in their meetings: "We spoke with new tongues, as the Lord gave us utterance, and His Spirit led us".[SUP][25][/SUP]
  • 1817 – In Germany, Gustav von Below, an aristocratic officer of the Prussian Guard, and his brothers, founded a charismatic movement based on their estates in Pomerania, which may have included speaking in tongues.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]
  • 19th century – Edward Irving and the Catholic Apostolic Church. Edward Irving, a minister in the Church of Scotland, writes of a woman who would "speak at great length, and with superhuman strength, in an unknown tongue, to the great astonishment of all who heard, and to her own great edification and enjoyment in God".[SUP][26][/SUP] Irving further stated that "tongues are a great instrument for personal edification, however mysterious it may seem to us."[SUP][27][/SUP]
  • 19th century – The history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church), contains extensive references to the phenomenon of speaking in tongues by Brigham Young, Joseph Smith and many others.[SUP][28][/SUP][SUP][29][/SUP] Sidney Rigdon had disagreements with Alexander Campbell regarding speaking in tongues, and later joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Speaking in tongues was recorded in contemporary sources, both hostile and sympathetic to Mormonism, by at least 1830.[SUP][30][/SUP] The practice was soon widespread amongst Mormons, with many rank and file church members believing they were speaking the language of Adam; some of the hostility towards Mormons stemmed from those of other faiths regarding speaking in tongues unfavorably, especially when practiced by children.[SUP][30][/SUP] At the 1836 dedication of the Kirtland Temple the dedicatory prayer asked that God grant them the gift of tongues and at the end of the service Brigham Young spoke in tongues, another elder interpreted it and then gave his own exhortation in tongues. Many other worship experiences in the Kirtland Temple prior to and after the dedication included references to people speaking and interpreting tongues. In describing the beliefs of the church in the Wentworth letter (1842), Joseph Smith identified a belief of the "gift of tongues" and "interpretation of tongues". The practice of glossolalia by the Latter-day Saints was widespread but after an initial burst of enthusiastic growth circa 1830–34, seems to have been somewhat more restrained than in many other contemporary religious movements.[SUP][30][/SUP] Young, Smith, and numerous other early leaders frequently cautioned against the public exercise of glossolalia unless there was someone who could exercise the corresponding spiritual gift of interpretation of tongues, so that listeners could be edified by what had been said. Although the Latter-day Saints believe that speaking in tongues and the interpretation of tongues are alive and well in the Church, modern Mormons are much more likely to point to the way in which LDS missionaries are trained and learn foreign languages quickly, and are able to communicate rapidly on their missions, as evidence of the manifestation of this gift. This interpretation stems from a 1900 General Conference sermon by Joseph F. Smith which discouraged glossolalia; subsequent leaders echoed this recommendation for about a decade afterwards and subsequently the practice had largely died out amongst Mormons by the 1930s and '40s.[SUP][30][/SUP] The visitor to 21st Century LDS church services will never hear spontaneous, incomprehensible glossolalia as one might overhear at a Pentecostal service.
[h=3]20th century[edit][/h]Main article: Azusa Street Revival

Headline about the "Weird babel of tongues" and other behavior at Azusa Street, from a 1906 Los Angeles Times newspaper.​

During the 20th century, glossolalia primarily became associated with Pentecostalism and the later charismatic movement. The holiness preachers Charles Parham and William Seymour are credited as co-founders of the movement. It was Parham who formulated the doctrine of "initial evidence". After studying the Bible, Parham came to the conclusion that speaking in tongues was the Bible evidence that one had received the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
In 1900, Parham opened Bethel Bible College in Topeka, Kansas, America, where he taught initial evidence. During a service on 1 January 1901, a student named Agnes Ozman asked for prayer and the laying on of hands to specifically ask God to fill her with the Holy Spirit. She became the first of many students to experience glossolalia, coincidentally in the first hours of the 20th century. Parham followed within the next few days. Parham called his new movement the Apostolic Faith. In 1905, he moved to Houston and opened a Bible school there. One of his students was William Seymour, an African-American preacher. In 1906, Seymour traveled to Los Angeles where his preaching ignited the Azusa Street Revival. This revival is considered the birth of the global Pentecostal movement. Witnesses at the Azusa Street Revival wrote of seeing fire resting on the heads of participants, miraculous healings in the meetings, and incidents of speaking in tongues being understood by native speakers of the language.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP] According to the first issue of William Seymour's newsletter, "The Apostolic Faith", from 1906:
A Mohammedan, a Soudanese by birth, a [m]an who is an interpreter and speaks six[t]een languages, came into the meetings at Azusa Street and the Lord gave him messages which none but himself could understand. He identified, interpreted and wrote [a] number of the languages.[SUP][31][/SUP]
Parham and his early followers believed that speaking in tongues was xenoglossia, and some followers traveled to foreign countries and tried to use the gift to share the Gospel with non-English-speaking people. From the time of the Azusa Street revival and among early participants in the Pentecostal movement, there were many accounts of individuals hearing their own languages spoken 'in tongues'. It is likely that the majority of Pentecostals and Charismatics still consider speaking in tongues to primarily be human languages. [SUP][32][/SUP] In the years following the Azusa Street revival Pentecostals who went to the mission field found that they were unable to speak in the language of the local inhabitants at will when they spoke in tongues in strange lands. [SUP][33][/SUP] But Pentecostals and Charismatics have reported many cases of 'speaking in tongues' that were identified as human languages since [SUP][34][/SUP].
The revival at Azusa Street lasted until around 1915. From it grew many new Pentecostal churches as people visited the services in Los Angeles and took their newfound beliefs to communities around the United States and abroad. During the 20th century, glossolalia became an important part of the identity of these religious groups. During the 1960s, the charismatic movement within the mainline Protestant churches and among charismatic Roman Catholics adopted some Pentecostal beliefs, and the practice of glossolalia spread to other Christian denominations. The discussion regarding tongues has permeated many branches of the Protestantism, particularly since the widespread Charismatic Movement in the 1960s. Many books have been published either defending[SUP][35][/SUP] or attacking[SUP][36][/SUP] the practice.
 

FlSnookman7

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Jun 27, 2015
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From CARM


[h=1]What is speaking in tongues?[/h]by Matt Slick
Speaking in tongues is the New Testament phenomena where a person speaks in a language that is unknown to him. This language is either the language of angels or other earthly languages (1 Cor. 13:1). It occurred in Acts 2 at Pentecost and also in the Corinthian church as is described in 1 Corinthians 14. This New Testament gift was given by the Holy Spirit to the Christian church and is for the purpose of the edification of the Body of Christ as well as for glorifying the Lord.
There seem to be three divisions in the use of tongues: First, a private prayer language that is not interpreted; second, a language that is interpreted -- this defines proper usage in the Christian congregation; and third, missionary context -- that is, it appears in the context of evangelism where people (in the New Testament) are presenting the gospel.
Today there is much debate as to the validity of speaking in tongues, especially since there is so much misuse of it in Christian circles. Nevertheless, some Christian churches teach that all the charismatic gifts (speaking in tongues, word of knowledge, prophecy, etc.) have ceased with the completion of the New Testament (1 Cor. 13:8-12). Others maintain that the charismatic gifts are still for the church today (1 Cor. 1:7). It is not the purpose of this paper to take sides on this issue since it is so divisive and believing or not believing in them does not affect one's salvation. Nevertheless, there are good arguments on both sides, and the Christian church needs to be as gracious as possible to those with opposing views on this debatable issue.
But there is an important point worth making here. Some churches erringly maintain that you must speak in tongues in order to be saved. This is a grave mistake since not all people speak in tongues because not all people are gifted by the Holy Spirit this way.
1 Cor. 12:7-11,28-31, "But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills...28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts."
So, the gifts of the Spirit are varied, and they are for the edification of the body of Christ. Speaking in tongues is not necessary for salvation, and it is not a prerequisite proof of Baptism in the Holy Spirit. We must remember the words of Paul in 1 Cor. 13:1-2,13
"If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.... 13 But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."

[h=2]Inside the Bible[/h]Jesus said
Mark 16:17, “These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues."
In the New Testament
Acts 2:3–4, "And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."
1 Corinthians 12:10, "and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues."
[h=2]Inside CARM[/h]Is speaking in tongues a necessary sign of salvation?
No, speaking in tongues is not a necessary sign of salvation. We see in Acts that many people who became Christians immediately spoke in tongues (Acts 2:4; 10:46; 19:6). Not all speak in tongues because God doesn't give the gift to everyone. Speaking in tongues is not the sign of salvation but a sign. If anything, the fruit of the indwelling Spirit of God as listed in Gal. 5:22-23 is the sign of salvation.
[h=3]Dictionary[/h]"The description of a vision given to the disciples at the PENTECOST event (Acts 2:1–13). In view of the familiar biblical association of fiery apparitions with visions of God (e.g., Ezk. 1:27; Dnl. 7:9f.; see also FIRE I.D.), as well as passages such as 1 12En 14:8–15; 71:5, which refer to “tongues of fire” in the context of visions of heaven, the phenomenon in Acts likely symbolizes divine presence and activity, which is seen “distributed” upon the disciples (2:3; AV “cloven” is a mistranslation). The phrasing “as of fire” in this description of the inauguration of the Church bears some similarity to the same writer’s account of the beginning of Jesus’ ministry in Lk. 3:22; there Jesus sees the Spirit descending “in bodily form, as [hōs] a dove.” The author may have intended to draw a parallel between the two visions that accompany scenes of empowerment by the Spirit." (Bromiley, Geoffrey W., ed. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised. Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1979–1988.)
 

Waggles

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Getting back to prophets and prophecy in the church -

In The Revival Fellowship at our worship meetings people speak forth the gift of prophecy up to 3 times at a worship meeting in time set aside for the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit.
So despite all the hoo-haa from unbelievers that this is not happening or cannot happen or ought not to be happening:
the truth of the matter is that prophecy and prophets are happening.

It is the time of the latter rain and the Holy Spirit is being poured out on all flesh and God's sons and daughters shall and do prophesy ...
and while those not of Pentecost quibble and argue on Christian Chat about whether or not this is happening these days, some of you need to get out into the wide world and learn of the Holy Spirit Pentecostal revival that is happening - especially in the Third World and yes even China.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
so here is my response to this post, coffee in hand and it's not the Readers Digest version


plainguy;3425839Were both the OT and NT prophets (yes, there were a handful of NT prophets until the completion of scripture) chosen by God and trusted with His divinely inspired message ? I think we would agree that they were.

there are several mentioned as you say, but we have no idea how many there were but prob way more as Paul addressed the spiritual gifts in detail and there is no manifesto as to who had what and I believe the same for the OT....we do not know the actual number speaking truthfully on behalf of God.

I believe the Bible is a closed canon, but as the gifts are for the building up of the body of Christ I would disagree they are no longer in operation. problem is, they are filled with fakery and showmanship and no gift at all in many cases. even worse, are the mix of spirits...the truth mixed in with a lie, or a lie covered with the skin of the truth as someone I knew used to say


If one believes that the need for prophets remain today (according to scripture), does it not also stand to reason that we still have apostles with us as well ?

reasonable question I would think. I certainly do not believe in Apostles in the sense the 12 chosen by Jesus were (and then Paul replacing Judas as an Apostle to the Gentiles.) Bible Study Tools.com notes this with regards to the word Apostle used as a noun:

The noun apostolos [ajpovstolo"] appears seventy-nine times in the New Testament (ten in the Gospels; twenty-eight in Acts; thirty-eight in the Epistles; and three in Revelation). The vast majority of these occurrences are found in Luke-Acts (thirty-four) and in the Pauline epistles (thirty-four), and refer to those appointed by Christ for a special function in the church. Their unique place is based not only on having witnessed the resurrection, but also on having been commissioned and empowered by the resurrected Lord to proclaim the gospel to all nations.


in the sense of being sent out, not witnessing the resurrection, I think a person may be called an Apostle but not as some call themselves today. There are those today who refer to themselves as Apostles with new revelations outside scripture or reinvent the meaning of scripture and I do not believe this movement has God's blessing.

as no one today can qualify being an Apostle as defined by one witnessing the risen Christ, I would disqualify those who state they have equal import as those who wrote scripture and I kid you not, there are plenty of them around

the gift of prophecy is not the same as per the OT...that is where it seems people can get confused...the gift today would be similar to teaching ... proclaiming the word with authority and encouraging, edifying and insight into scripture...in keeping with the Bible as a whole, not this yakkity yak God is doing a new thing. I've been hearing about the 'new thing' gonna happen any minute now since I am 20. I was afraid I was gonna miss out...
:rolleyes:

I can't see how the two can be separated if one is still with us as many claim. And this begs the question : Who are they ? Where are they ? ... and are they doing those things that the apostles and prophets of old did ?

answered that above. I don't know why you ask who and where are they. understand that the gifts are for the building up of the body of Christ or if you will, locally in churches (whether in houses or whatever...but the NT says let the prophets speak 2 or 3...NEVER one person dominating and controlling...that is spiritual witchcraft and no Holy Spirit)

as it is, so many reject the gifts that many do not even hear about them or if they do, they are told this or that one has passed away and since tongues has been so abused, many just outright reject them. my background is anti tongues or anything that was beyond the 5 senses really, but it was still a good church to grow up in...just grew beyond it and so did others.



Are people being healed by a passing of even their shadow ? Are the names of today's apostles going to be added to names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb on the gates of God's heavenly city ?

again, answered that above but I will add, let's not be nonsensical...obviously the 12 Apostles are the 12 Apostles and are not going to be added to. They saw Jesus resurrected..including Paul ... and Paul said he was chosen by Christ ...I would totally disregard anyone today saying they had a vision similar and are now a chosen Apostle...yet again, God help us, some refer them-self that way

I do believe there are people being healed today...I think Benny Hinn and those of his ilk, are phonies. does that answer your question?

Much or all of this disagreement stems from two different understandings of what the "until that which is perfect has come". Proponents of prophets today claim this refers to Jesus Christ Himself. Others, like myself, are convinced that this refers to the completion of God's word given us ...i.e... the NT. Perfect, complete, mature ... fully realized. Until this was so, there remained a need for prophets ... or God's chosen for giving us His Word. Another glaring and obvious discrepancy between those of old and today is the manner and depth of which they suffered for their faith. We all know how the twelve apostles suffered and were martyred for their faith, perhaps with the exception of John, whose task it was given him to write the Book of Revelation. But that aside, there is no comparison worthy of mention between them and today's so-called chosen ones. None are beheaded or crucified upside down. Or boiled in oil .. or whatever the fate was that met them. Only the "prestige" of the title remains ... and most living a life of luxury. Personally, I find it appalling that any of us would even consider ourselves in the same league as those of old, both prophets and apostles alike. We are told that tongues will cease ... and where there are prophecies, they will fail, or cease as well. Many say that this occurs only when Christ returns. But my question is, if faith, hope and love remain after those prior do cease, and we know that this is so, where will faith and hope be required after we find ourselves in the presence of our Lord ? Both our faith and hope will be fully realized .. and rewarded. Where would they now come into play ? The answer is ... they wouldn't. But love, which is the greatest of these three shall always be. Having said all of this, I fully agree with you on the NAR and other like-minded organizations. And although we will have to agree to disagree on some things, I remain fond of you :).

well that particular passage regarding the perfect does not apply to the Bible...the perfect is in the future...we are not perfect now and even the Bible undergoes revision apart from those who think the King Jimmy is perfect and inspired, I believe there have been errors in translation but nothing that would indicate what we as Christians believe regarding God's salvation or history.

although a good number of people act like it, thankfully knowledge has not passed away nor have all prophecies been fulfilled. with a proper understanding of the prophetic in the NT, the argument for adding to the Bible goes away. those who try to add to it or put their so called revelations above it, are in gross error IMO. the dismal failure of future events in so called prophecy today are evidence of the error. obviously, these 3 are still current but they are not perfect.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. I Corinthians


no one has perfect faith or love and yet we continue to hope in our salvation and believe that when we stand before our Creator, we will know even as we are known. (Pauls' comment regarding seeing only partially...through a glass darkly)

so that is my more complete response to you. I think a failure to understand the teaching on the gifts, especially prophecy and tongues, results in denial and refusal to quite a great extent. people going awol with the gifts are also a large contributing factor to denial and refusal of them.


Having said all of this, I fully agree with you on the NAR and other like-minded organizations. And although we will have to agree to disagree on some things, I remain fond of you :).


well we should all try to be adults and understand disagreements will come but that does not mean you have to go ape and call people names and say they are not saved and actually and practically blaspheme against other Christians or act self righteous and play the part of teacher and everyone else has to sit and listen

Thanks!
 

notuptome

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Getting back to prophets and prophecy in the church -

In The Revival Fellowship at our worship meetings people speak forth the gift of prophecy up to 3 times at a worship meeting in time set aside for the voice gifts of the Holy Spirit.
So despite all the hoo-haa from unbelievers that this is not happening or cannot happen or ought not to be happening:
the truth of the matter is that prophecy and prophets are happening.

It is the time of the latter rain and the Holy Spirit is being poured out on all flesh and God's sons and daughters shall and do prophesy ...
and while those not of Pentecost quibble and argue on Christian Chat about whether or not this is happening these days, some of you need to get out into the wide world and learn of the Holy Spirit Pentecostal revival that is happening - especially in the Third World and yes even China.
You are quite incorrect. Pentecost is the feast of the Latter First Fruits not the latter rain. The latter rain will come at the end of the tribulation probably in the last three and one half years.

History has demonstrated quite conclusively that those who reject biblical truth will receive counterfeit revelation. Latter rain pertains to Israel not to the Gentile church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Nehemiah6

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But The Holy Spirit does move in people with evidence which you are denying. If you have never witnessed a move of God I am sorry but your continued denial of his power amounts to one thing. I am taking this personally because you are calling me a liar (or worse). Do you accuse the Holy Spirit in me of being some other manifestation of power?
1. Neither I nor anyone who believes that genuine biblical tongues have ceased denies the power of the Holy Spirit. The power of the Holy Spirit is manifested today in many ways -- the salvation of souls, the empowerment of those who preach the true Gospel and teach God's Truth, the manifestation of many other spiritual gifts among Christians, the leading, guiding and teaching of Christians by the Holy Spirit, and the transformation of lives by the power of the Spirit.

2. If you believe that you have spoken in tongues by the power of the Holy Spirit no one can question your personal experience. I have no idea as to what you have experienced, so I have no business commenting on that.

3, But we must turn to Scripture for our understanding of spiritual gifts, and when Paul says "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away" we need to ask ourselves why Paul selected just THREE of about 20 spiritual gifts and said that they would cease?

4. He tells us that when "THAT which is complete" ("perfect" in the KJV) has come then that which is in part will be done away. Why would he not have said "When He who is perfect is come..." if he meant to speak of Christ? So since the Bible is indeed complete, with the final book as a book of prophecy, why should we expect that prophecy (Divine revelation) would continue? And since Paul mentions tongues and "knowledge" (no doubt supernatural) in the same breath, it is only reasonable to conclude that those three gifts ceased by c AD 100.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

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it is only reasonable to conclude that those three gifts ceased by c AD 100.
It is only reasonable if you ADD your own opinion to The Word as you just have done.Your argument doesn't stand up. You have no right to set a date, even an approximate one.
 

Waggles

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Well boo-hoo for you lot.
You can post all your pet theories about the demise of the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit in the church these days.

The fact of the matter is that what is happening worldwide right now denies all of your unbelief.
And all of your blasphemies openly alleging fakeries and other spirits and charlatan practices.

The Latter Rain of the Holy Spirit began in the 1880s in a small way in the U.K. and in the U.S.A. beginning with the divine healing movement.
Later in the early 1900s it exploded and like the book of Acts thousands were converted and spoke in new tongues.

Right now while you lot are typing away how this can no longer be the book of Acts in happening in a big way in Oceania, Africa, S E Asia, China, South America.
Thousands upon thousands of people are believing the full gospel of salvation and in accordance with Acts 2:38 are being water baptized by full immersion confessing their faith; AND also being baptized in the Holy Spirit and speaking forth in new tongues.
AND also enjoying many miracles and healings in response to their faith and obedience.
Blind people are given sight, the lame and crippled walk, the deaf hear, people are instantly healed from HIV/aids; disciples are set free from witchcraft and the fear of magic ...

If you want to be a Lutheran then be a Lutheran, or a Catholic, or a Baptist, or whatever ...
but don't go around claiming that Pentecost is of Satan.

In a world that belongs to Satan and is full of darkness there is no better way to counteract his dominion and power but through the indwelling Holy Spirit.
God is still building his Church dramatically and powerfully these days just as he did in the time of the first century.
 

Waggles

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As for the gift of prophecy and for prophets speaking in the church
still happening.
And by the Holy Spirit as we read in Acts and the epistles.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Well boo-hoo for you lot.
You can post all your pet theories about the demise of the nine gifts of the Holy Spirit in the church these days.

The fact of the matter is that what is happening worldwide right now denies all of your unbelief.
And all of your blasphemies openly alleging fakeries and other spirits and charlatan practices.

The Latter Rain of the Holy Spirit began in the 1880s in a small way in the U.K. and in the U.S.A. beginning with the divine healing movement.
Later in the early 1900s it exploded and like the book of Acts thousands were converted and spoke in new tongues.

Right now while you lot are typing away how this can no longer be the book of Acts in happening in a big way in Oceania, Africa, S E Asia, China, South America.
Thousands upon thousands of people are believing the full gospel of salvation and in accordance with Acts 2:38 are being water baptized by full immersion confessing their faith; AND also being baptized in the Holy Spirit and speaking forth in new tongues.
AND also enjoying many miracles and healings in response to their faith and obedience.
Blind people are given sight, the lame and crippled walk, the deaf hear, people are instantly healed from HIV/aids; disciples are set free from witchcraft and the fear of magic ...

If you want to be a Lutheran then be a Lutheran, or a Catholic, or a Baptist, or whatever ...
but don't go around claiming that Pentecost is of Satan.

In a world that belongs to Satan and is full of darkness there is no better way to counteract his dominion and power but through the indwelling Holy Spirit.
God is still building his Church dramatically and powerfully these days just as he did in the time of the first century.
You blather on about something you do not comprehend. Peter at Pentecost spoke of Joel and clearly taught that it was the former rain not the latter rain which was being evidenced on that day. Pentecost is a Jewish feast day and not a Pentecostal high water mark. You misappropriate Pentecost entirely for your appetite for the mystical.


For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
You blather on about something you do not comprehend. Peter at Pentecost spoke of Joel and clearly taught that it was the former rain not the latter rain which was being evidenced on that day. Pentecost is a Jewish feast day and not a Pentecostal high water mark. You misappropriate Pentecost entirely for your appetite for the mystical.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

sigh

Roger and I are old sparring buddies on this subject so we pretty much don't bother, but I will speak up here

the above is your personal interpretation Roger and your note on latter rain and former rain does not make sense. you are trying to force some understanding that is not in scripture

you consistently state, Roger, that the event that occurred on the day of Pentecost...the promise of the Holy Spirit as Jesus PROPHESIED ... descending upon all gathered in the upper room as recorded in the book of Acts, is not for believers now and was not for Gentiles then

no one is misappropriating Pentecost for their appetite for the mystical

we believe in God who has never been seen, but we believe that Jesus represented Him with life on earth. Jesus said if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.

your argument that Gentiles have no expectation to receive the Holy Spirit as per Jesus prophetic promise and John the Baptist's prophecy...saying Jesus would baptize with fire...because it happened on a Jewish Feast Day, is totally illogical and a herring of such red hue, that you have created a new color and that is quite an accomplishment since red is a primary color

so you seem to be saying, that the Holy Spirit does not cross the line between Jews and Gentiles yet reading farther in Acts we see this is absolutely not so and considering that Paul was called by Jesus to BE the apostle to the Gentiles and wrote much about the infilling of the Holy Spirit APART from salvation, TO Gentiles, we accept what Scripture states...we do not twist it, or say things it does not say in order to evidence truth of our PERSONAL CONVICTIONS

I'm going to leave it at that because I have read every post you could make regarding your PERSONAL CONVICTIONS and desire, for whatever reason, to make this a hill for everyone to die on

you are wrong; you could not be more wrong and you should stop telling OTHER BELIEVERS that you consider them delusional or worse...demonic...as you have done in times past

you have actually stated that you believe if someone is speaking in tongues, it is an evil spirit...I would suggest to you that perhaps you are motivated to DENY the Holy Spirit and scripture by such a spirit yourself

see how that goes? you have one belief...many have another

you are not wiser or better than those who believe differently even if you think so

again, I have no expectation you would say otherwise than you have but when you insult one believer you insult all of us

it's enough.
 
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