What Is Romans 9 About?

[eternally-gratefull]

Many scholars have read, studied, exegeted, labored over the book of Romans their entire lives. One, whom I cannot recall at the moment had Romans read to him on a very regular basis to help him grasp it due to its depth and complexity. I believe it was daily or once a week.

How many times has the average Christian even read through Romans? Once? Some have never read it even once.

Just look at the volumes written to express the Gospel message contained in its pages and plunge its depths. Listen to the numerous sermons by D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones on Romans.

For any person to imply Romans is simple shows one to be ignorant (before anyone get's bent over that word, ignorant means "without knowledge" not "stupid") of the book and its message, and just how little they really understand about its complexity or even the message of the Gospel itself. Sorry, I don't buy the implications that it is simple because plainly it is not simple and to say such a thing is totally unwarranted.

Aww, Poor guy. Someone says romans 9 is simple. And he must be ignorant.

Romans 9 is not the problem, the problem is trying to interpret romans 9 with preconcieved ideas, and trying to make it fit into our system.

Once romans 9 is seen as to what it is, it is actually quite simple.

The wonderful thing about scripture is it interprets itself. Once hard passages, when seen in the light become open and powerful words of God which are understandable.

I have witnessed this man by times when I actually started to study the word, instead of blindly following people who have taught me while I was growing up.

 

[posthuman]

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[posthuman]

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[posthuman]

The wonderful thing about scripture is it interprets itself. Once hard passages, when seen in the light become open and powerful words of God which are understandable.

"hard passages" are wonderful, and we should have joy when we see them.

it means there is something absolutely amazing to be sought out and uncovered !!
and He gave us all the scripture, to see Him in it, to go through it and find Him there. none of it is isolated from the rest of it, and all of it testifies of Christ

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"hard passages" are wonderful, and we should have joy when we see them.

it means there is something absolutely amazing to be sought out and uncovered !!
and He gave us all the scripture, to see Him in it, to go through it and find Him there. none of it is isolated from the rest of it, and all of it testifies of Christ

Amen, God has one message from the beginning to the end. He also has many parts of the message and many people and each has its role.

 

[preacher4truth]

Someone says romans 9 is simple. And he must be ignorant.

Agreed....

 

[notuptome]

Many scholars have read, studied, exegeted, labored over the book of Romans their entire lives. One, whom I cannot recall at the moment had Romans read to him on a very regular basis to help him grasp it due to its depth and complexity. I believe it was daily or once a week.

How many times has the average Christian even read through Romans? Once? Some have never read it even once.

Just look at the volumes written to express the Gospel message contained in its pages and plunge its depths. Listen to the numerous sermons by D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones on Romans.

For any person to imply Romans is simple shows one to be ignorant (before anyone get's bent over that word, ignorant means "without knowledge" not "stupid") of the book and its message, and just how little they really understand about its complexity or even the message of the Gospel itself. Sorry, I don't buy the implications that it is simple because plainly it is not simple and to say such a thing is totally unwarranted.

It's a lot simpler when you do not exegete the chapter to say something it does not say.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[posthuman]

Amen, God has one message from the beginning to the end. He also has many parts of the message and many people and each has its role.

yes as one sacrifice that makes perfect forever all who put their trust in it

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Agreed....

of course you do. I would expect nothing less. You need it to be hard, I understand quite well

 

[Nehemiah6]

Reading Ro 9 starting at v1 through v33 it says Salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ not by works of the law as the Jews believe. That is THE main idea Paul was getting across. It is in no way about God predestinating only certain individuals to eternal life.

I have posted the gist of Romans 9 on the "Election" thread. Here it is:

ROMANS 9 (KJB)

PAUL’S DEEP SORROW FOR THE LOST CONDITION OF ISRAEL
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

ISRAEL IS GOD’S CHOSEN NATION TO BRING FORTH MESSIAH
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

ONLY BELIEVING ISRAEL IS THE TRUE ISRAEL
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

ISAAC AND JACOB CHOSEN TO CONTINUE THE LINE OF ABRAHAM
For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

GOD SOVEREIGNLY CHOOSES INDIVIDUALS TO FULFIL HIS PURPOSES
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

[Note: This is NOT for salvation but for God’s eternal purposes. For salvation God says this: For God hath concluded them all (Israel) in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all (Rom 11:32)]

MAN CANNOT DISPUTE WITH GOD ABOUT HIS CHOICES
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

GOD PREDESTINES SOME (JEWS AND GENTILES) TO BE GLORIFIED
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

[Note: This is the biblical reason for predestination, which is “prepared unto glory” or glorification]

ONLY A BELIEVING REMNANT OF ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

GENTILES ARE JUSTIFIED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

THE WORKS OF THE LAW CANNOT SAVE ISRAELITES
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

CHRIST IS A STUMBLING STONE TO UNBELIEVING JEWS
For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[notuptome]

To make salvation a matter of election is to render unnecessary the sacrifice of Christ. If God chooses all who will be saved then God by decree is able to save the elect because they are elect. Man has no personal responsibility for his sin. God makes all the choices and saves even those who do not want to be saved.

Adam when he fell in the garden received the knowledge of good and evil. Adams race which is us must now make the choice between good and evil.

Romans 11:32 God has concluded then all in unbelief that He (God) might have mercy upon all.

Its Gods mercy not election that brings men to Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[preacher4truth]

of course you do. I would expect nothing less. You need it to be hard, I understand quite well

You shouldn't expect anything less, or anything more because the fact is it isn't simple.

You're one who thinks the Gospel is only simple, and your definition of simple in context of what you write is "simpleton-ism." Somehow you think this makes you appear intelligent. Or something. Let me be the first to inform you it does just the opposite.

Any person, you included, who thinks Romans or the Gospel to be simple is just showing their ignorance of both.

Yes, I know, you departed from all teachers and discovered the truth on your own by your own personal self-attestation.

No person in the history of the church has ever displayed such self-importance or arrogance of reliance on self, or even saying "No, me and the Holy Spirit" in rebuttal and defense. The fact that you are "self taught" explains your many errors and unfortunately you'll more than likely remain there.

The multitudes of erroneous things you teach, and how you censure God just show you simply don't get it even though you claim it as so simple. You will not allow God to be God and have drawn out your own criteria that he must meet to be god, or he is not God and is not fair. Well known fact.

But I digress, at the least you profess to know Christ as the only way to heaven which is the most important thing.

 

[posthuman]

To make salvation a matter of election is to render unnecessary the sacrifice of Christ.

not to argue about free will and election at all, but to say that -- i don't see how God's choosing to have mercy on any individual makes the mechanism of that mercy in any way unnecessary.

it was necessary to remove Lot from Sodom in order to spare him from her destruction, wasn't it? i mean sure, God could have destroyed completely everything around him and left him standing - but that wasn't the scenario the angels presented to Lot - though Lot was chosen to be spared - they told him that he must exit, and when he hesitated to go with his own two feet, they took him and his family by the hand and brought him out themselves.
was Lot then saved by Lot's own will & exertion or by God's will and exertion? the scripture answers this question, "for the compassion of the LORD was upon him" ((re: Genesis 19:16)) -- so Lots being chosen out of the city did not make void the necessity of his removal from it.

Lot's sons-in-law, however, seem to have chosen for themselves their own destruction. or did they? God sent two angels, with four hands between them, and four were taken out by the hand. Abraham pleaded for ten, but five angels ((summing to ten hands)) were not sent, only two. why?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You shouldn't expect anything less, or anything more because the fact is it isn't simple.

You're one who thinks the Gospel is only simple, and your definition of simple in context of what you write is "simpleton-ism." Somehow you think this makes you appear intelligent. Or something. Let me be the first to inform you it does just the opposite.

Any person, you included, who thinks Romans or the Gospel to be simple is just showing their ignorance of both.

Yes, I know, you departed from all teachers and discovered the truth on your own by your own personal self-attestation.

No person in the history of the church has ever displayed such self-importance or arrogance of reliance on self, or even saying "No, me and the Holy Spirit" in rebuttal and defense. The fact that you are "self taught" explains your many errors and unfortunately you'll more than likely remain there.

The multitudes of erroneous things you teach, and how you censure God just show you simply don't get it even though you claim it as so simple. You will not allow God to be God and have drawn out your own criteria that he must meet to be god, or he is not God and is not fair. Well known fact.

But I digress, at the least you profess to know Christ as the only way to heaven which is the most important thing.

keep thinking that, You have free will to chose to believe whatever you want. pun intended

 

[Nehemiah6]

not to argue about free will and election at all, but to say that -- i don't see how God's choosing to have mercy on any individual makes the mechanism of that mercy in any way unnecessary.

But that is not what he said. This is what was said: ...render unnecessary the sacrifice of Christ.

BTW Lot is deemed to be "righteous" in Scripture, and because of his standing with God, God did not subject him to wrath and judgment, but removed him from Sodom BEFORE it was destroyed. This has a bearing on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (a different topic altogether).

 

[preacher4truth]

keep thinking that, You have free will to chose to believe whatever you want. pun intended

You speak often of yourself, of your long studies, of being self taught, and of how simple Scripture and the Gospel are.

While you censure God.

That right there says all any person needs to know.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You speak often of yourself, of your long studies, of being self taught, and of how simple Scripture and the Gospel are.

While you censure God.

That right there says all any person needs to know.

dude get over yourself,

if anyone is censuring good its you. But even that does not matter, I am sick of your strawman arguments.

 

[UnderGrace]

Well Roger, there you have it, exactly!!!

Maybe, that is why all the bible scholars are needed, it takes books and more books to continually defend an erroneous doctrine for years and years.

It's a lot simpler when you do not exegete the chapter to say something it does not say.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[posthuman]

But that is not what he said. This is what was said: ...render unnecessary the sacrifice of Christ.

BTW Lot is deemed to be "righteous" in Scripture, and because of his standing with God, God did not subject him to wrath and judgment, but removed him from Sodom BEFORE it was destroyed. This has a bearing on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture (a different topic altogether).

i was saying this as though Christ's sacrifice is the mechanism of the application of God's mercy -- it is the salvation of God. it's by His atonement we are saved. maybe i am not looking at it right?

 

[Nehemiah6]

i was saying this as though Christ's sacrifice is the mechanism of the application of God's mercy -- it is the salvation of God. it's by His atonement we are saved. maybe i am not looking at it right?

One could say that Christ's atoning sacrifice is the BASIS and FOUNDATION for the mercy of God in offering His salvation to humanity. Unless God's righteousness, holiness, and justice were fully satisfied, there could have been no mercy. But the important thing to note in the context of Romans 9 (and all Gospel truth) is that God extends His mercy to ALL who will obey the Gospel. He does not pre-select some for His mercy and then by-pass others. He commands all to repent and desires all to be saved -- "SO THAT THE WORLD THROUGH HIM (CHRIST) MIGHT BE SAVED".