Who are the two witnesses/prophets in Revelation?

[miknik5]

However, your initial post includes much about Elijah and Moses but nothing about Enoch


and we all know as per the Bible that Enoch a man lived and was translated before he could physically die


So where is Enoch, a man, in the coming age?

Since he never physically suffered the first death to begin with?

 

[miknik5]

It’s not important enough but don’t be so harsh in your supplying info and expecting everyone to agree that it has to be Elijah and moses

the same about the rapture

i have no stance on it but your comment implied that others are just so silly to expect a rapture

I’m not sure I can agree with you on that either

 

[miknik5]

If we keep our eyes on HIM (the author and finisher of our faith) remembering that it won’t be by power or might
We’ll be fine ....spiritually, that is

 

[miknik5]

Elijah and/or Moses and/or Enoch

have a different type of ministtry which does include raining fire down from heaven on the enemies of GOD


We don’t have a part in that type of ministry so don’t let anyone convince you that you do

 

[JaumeJ]

Once more, going to Scripture.........Mat 17:12 but I say into you, that Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but did unto him whatsoever they would. Even so shall the Son of man also suffer of them

 

[OtherWay210]

To miknik5 :::

I did not mention Enoch, because the Bible did Not mention Enoch ;
in these passages discussed .

Are you taking issue with me for Not adding to the bible ?

As far as Elijah and Moses is concerned, why does anyone's opinion matter?
don't believe my opinion because its Not important.

But at least acknowledge scripture when shared .

saying that sharing scripture is " harsh ". is odd ...
what would you like me to do instead ??



As far as rapture is concerned, it is not in the Bible.

 

[FlSnookman7]

blue_ladybug He has added a Poll option to the other thread. He probably forgot to add it .

I am not the most tech savvy person, LOL I had replied to another thread then realized it was off topic. I then posted the question as a new thread before thinking about doing a poll. By the time I figured out how to do the poll it was too late to delete.

Thank you all for the answers, it gives much to study.

 

[miknik5]

To miknik5 :::

I did not mention Enoch, because the Bible did Not mention Enoch ;
in these passages discussed .

Are you taking issue with me for Not adding to the bible ?

As far as Elijah and Moses is concerned, why does anyone's opinion matter?
don't believe my opinion because its Not important.

But at least acknowledge scripture when shared .

saying that sharing scripture is " harsh ". is odd ...
what would you like me to do instead ??



As far as rapture is concerned, it is not in the Bible.

acknowledge ALL of scripture

We are discussing the witnesses

Enoch is a man and must be considered as well since scripture (and you confirm as well) states all must die once and then co es the judgement

enoch as a man could not have preceded the Lord
he did not suffer in all things as Christ also suffered.

He was taken before he tasted death

He and Elijah are not in the pattern of a man


And Christ as THE SON of MAN is THE FIRST and BEFORE all things created just as scripture states HE had to descend so as to ascend so as to fill all things and have the preeminence over all things created whether in heaven on earth or under the earth

Jesus alone is the first to rise from the dead and the first faithful witness in heaven

Enoch can not and Elijah can not precede HIM

 

[Bladerunner]

I thought the 2 witnesses/prophets in Revelation are Elijah and Enoch since they never died here on earth.


Hebrews 9:27

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."





Am I mistaken here?​

most likely Elijah and Moses.

 

[Ellsworth1943]

Morning OtherWay210,

The "last trumpet" of 1 Cor.15:52 has nothing whatsoever to do with the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments in Revelation, as they are two different types of trumpet with different results.

By making the 7th trumpet the "last trumpet" you are putting the living church through all of the seals and the trumpet judgments of God's wrath, which believers are not appointed to suffer.

The "last trumpet" is the blessed hope, the appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ. In opposition, the trumpet judgments, including the 7th, are plagues of God's wrath.

In addition, there is nothing in the context in or around the sounding of the 7th trumpet that even suggests the event of the gathering of the church as taking place. The 7th trumpet is a plague of wrath, not a blessing!

The only reason that this teaching of the "last trumpet" being the same as the "7th trumpet" is because of the word "trumpet." However, it is important to not pigeonhole words in scripture. The word "trumpet" is not specific to just one event. In fact there are many different types of trumpets in scripture which initiate different events.

The bottom line is that the "last trumpet" is a blessing for the church and the "7th trumpet" of the trumpet judgments is one of the plagues of God's wrath, which the church is not appointed to suffer.

Simply more of your private interpretation of God's Word.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Simply more of your private interpretation of God's Word.

How can it be a private interpretation? Do you not understand that the "last trumpet" is a blessing to the church and the 7th trumpet is a plague of God. You are one of those people that, no matter what scriptures are provided, you resist them. It's like covering your ears and saying "la, la, la, la, I can't hear you." Why don't you take your blinders off and consider what I am saying.

These are not private interpretations, but are backed up with scripture. There is nothing in the context of the 7th trumpet that mentions anything whatsoever regarding the church being gathered. As I also pointed out, by having the church gathered there at the 7th trumpet you would also be putting the living church through the seals and trumpets which are definitely God's wrath. Even if you don't believe that the seals are, surely the trumpets are.

The "last trumpet" which will sound when the church is gathered to the Lord, has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments. This belief is just one of the many false teachings that have sprung up in these last days. As I continue to say, people that say these two trumpets are the same, have no idea of the severity of the those coming plagues of wrath and who God's wrath will be poured on. If they did, they would not put the church as being in that time period.

I prefer to believe in the Lord's promise that he will keep us out of that time of trial and that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

 

[LoveGodForever]

The two great witnesses are the OLD and the NEW Testament scriptures.

They are the two great wintesses containing all the LAW and the prophets and it is these two witnesses that will testify for us or against us in the judgement (John 12:46-47)

 

[Nehemiah6]

Can you tell me why the above [1 Thessalonians 4:16] isn't simply happening at the resurrection? Since there IS a resurrection happening there. (dead in Christ rise first) Why is it not at the end? After the tribulation period. Why must it be placed pre-tribulation?

To be totally precise, we should be speaking about the Resurrection/Rapture, since 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4 are complementary. As to why the Resurrection/Rapture is not at the end of the Tribulation period here are the reasons:

1. The Rapture is a "stand-alone" event with no connection to any Tribulation (John 14:1-3; 1 John 3:1-3, and many other Scriptures).

2. The words "church" or "churches" do not appear even once from Rev 4 through Rev 18.

4. The resurrection of the saints is actually in three phases: (1) Christ the first fruits, (2) then they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING (the Church), and (3) then cometh the end (the Tribulation saints). This corresponds to a Hebrew harvest with the first fruits, then the main harvest, and finally the gleanings.

But every man in his own order: [there is an orderly progression]

1. Christ the firstfruits...

2. afterward they that are Christ's at his coming...

3. Then cometh the end...

when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (1 Cor 15:23,24)

5. The entire period called "Daniel's 70th week" corresponds to the judgments of the 6th and 7th seals which are an expression of God's wrath. Paul says that "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess 5:9). The Resurrection/Rapture is the culmination of God's salvation, since all the saints are glorified at that time.

6. At the end of the Tribulation period, Christ descends to earth WITH His saints and angels, and that is only after the Marriage of the Lamb. Unless th Church was ALREADY in Heaven prior to that, this sequence of events would not be possible.

 

[jb]

Please don't consider my question an argument or a contradiction. I don't mean it that way. A challenge perhaps. I am undecided about rapture timings.

Can you tell me why the above [1 Thessalonians 4:16] isn't simply happening at the resurrection? Since there IS a resurrection happening there. (dead in Christ rise first) Why is it not at the end? After the tribulation period. Why must it be placed pre-tribulation?

You may also find This blog helpful.

You might also want to look at other blogs on eschatology (Second Coming of Christ and so forth) that I’ve done.

 

[MattforJesus]

Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Zec 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

The two witnesses would have to be beings of some sort,which I do not believe they are angels,and not 2 men that dwell on earth at that time,but must be 2 men that are with God that come to earth to witness to Israel to turn them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

The two witnesses could be Moses,for he represents the law,and Elijah,for he represents the prophets,and all the law and prophets hang on the 2 greatest laws,love God,and love people,who appeared with Jesus,who represents the New Testament,and the two witnesses will turn the nation of Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah,which by the miracles,and plagues upon people so they do not hinder them,and dying,and being resurrected,the nation of Israel will turn to the truth,which the Bible says,and all Israel shall be saved,and the Gentile nations will come together and rebel against God.

 

[Ellsworth1943]

How can it be a private interpretation? Do you not understand that the "last trumpet" is a blessing to the church and the 7th trumpet is a plague of God. You are one of those people that, no matter what scriptures are provided, you resist them. It's like covering your ears and saying "la, la, la, la, I can't hear you." Why don't you take your blinders off and consider what I am saying.

These are not private interpretations, but are backed up with scripture. There is nothing in the context of the 7th trumpet that mentions anything whatsoever regarding the church being gathered. As I also pointed out, by having the church gathered there at the 7th trumpet you would also be putting the living church through the seals and trumpets which are definitely God's wrath. Even if you don't believe that the seals are, surely the trumpets are.

The "last trumpet" which will sound when the church is gathered to the Lord, has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments. This belief is just one of the many false teachings that have sprung up in these last days. As I continue to say, people that say these two trumpets are the same, have no idea of the severity of the those coming plagues of wrath and who God's wrath will be poured on. If they did, they would not put the church as being in that time period.

I prefer to believe in the Lord's promise that he will keep us out of that time of trial and that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

But what we prefer to believe is not always what is right.
I agree that Saints are not subject to God's wrath. That is what Scripture states. Your believing that the seven seals and seven trumps are the wrath of God is not supported by Scripture. It is again your private interpretation.
Please explain to all of us why some saints are "raptured" and avoid what you believe to be God's wrath while a multitude of Saints suffer at the hands of the man of sin.
Why do some escape while others do not.
Please, no opinion. Scripture proof required.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Please don't consider my question an argument or a contradiction. I don't mean it that way. A challenge perhaps. I am undecided about rapture timings.

Can you tell me why the above [1 Thessalonians 4:16] isn't simply happening at the resurrection? Since there IS a resurrection happening there. (dead in Christ rise first) Why is it not at the end? After the tribulation period. Why must it be placed pre-tribulation?

Good day Lucy!

To answer your question, the reason why the gathering of the church as described in 1 Thes.4:16 cannot take place after the tribulation, is because that tribulation is God's tribulation, His wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and which must take place in between now and the time that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.

The underlying principal is that, Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. When we believed we were credited with His righteousness and reconciled to God, i.e. brought back into a right relationship with him. Therefore, since God's wrath has already been satisfied for those who believe, then as scripture states we will not be exposed to God's wrath, as is also supported by the following:

"Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him! - Rom.5:9

" They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath." - 1 Thes.1:10

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. - 1Thes.5:9

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth. " - Rev.3:10

Therefore and I said earlier, since God's wrath must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and God's wrath will be in operation during that last seven years, beginning with the opening of the fist seal, then we, the church, must be removed prior to the on-set of God's wrath.

In addition, in Rev.19:6-8, we have the bride/church seen receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb. Following that in Rev.19:14, we then have the armies in heaven wearing that same fine linen that the bride will have previously received and will be riding on white horses following the Lord out of heaven. These verses reveal that the church would already have to be in heaven in order to be present at the wedding of the Lamb, as well as to be following Christ out of heaven.

I hope that this gives you a better understanding of this event.

 

[MattforJesus]

The trumpets are not the wrath of God,and the 6 trumpets are warnings to the world to turn to God,for He is giving them a chance to repent and acknowledge Him,which after the 6th trumpet they do not,so God gives them the man of sin to rule over them and deceive all people who do not love Him and then the resurrection,for the saints cannot be gathered together unto Christ until the man of sin claims to be God in the middle of the 7 years period,and makes war against the saints.

An example is WW1,set up League of Nations,and WW2,set up United Nations,to try to achieve peace on earth by their own efforts,and did not turn to God,and that pattern will continue until God gives up on them and gives them the man of sin to rule over them.

The first three and one half years repentance,and salvation is still available to the world,so the saints will remain on earth,and the wrath of God is not poured upon the world.

The last three and one half years the beast has power to rule for three and one half years,so the wrath of God is not there for if the wrath of God were there how does the beast have power to rule during the last half.

The beast blasphemes against God and His tabernacle,and people,but if the saints are not on earth who represent the truth the beast would not blaspheme against the truth,for there would be no truth there,which the beast is trying to convince the world not to follow Christianity that Jesus is Lord and Savior.

And there is only 2 resurrections,one of the saints before the millennial reign of Christ,and one of the dead after the millennial reign of Christ.There is not two resurrections of the saints,and Jesus said if they miss the resurrection they will have their portion with the hypocrites,which is why He tells them to watch.

Paul said when the nations come together and say Peace and safety,which starts the 7 years period,the saints will not be deceived by that for they will know it is not the operation of God,so the saints are on earth at that time.

Jesus said that all who abide in the truth He will deliver from the temptation that shall come upon all the world,to try all them that dwell upon the earth,which is when the world comes together,and tries to achieve peace on earth which will result in them rebelling against God,so the saints are on earth.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

When the nations come together and say Peace and safety,as they try to achieve peace on earth,looking at religion as evolution,and people can still evolve,it will over throw the faith of many people who will then turn to the new age movement interpretation of the Bible based on evolution through nature.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Ellsworth,

Your believing that the seven seals and seven trumps are the wrath of God is not supported by Scripture. It is again your private interpretation.

Oh, but the seven seals and seven trumpets being God's wrath is supported by scripture. Who do you think is opening the seals? It is the Lamb, Jesus Christ. He is the One who is said to trample the wine press of the wrath of God Almighty, which means that He will be the One carrying out God's wrath. That said, the results of the first four seals, which again Jesus will be opening, will be a fourth of the earths population being killed, which based on today's count would be over 1.7 billion people dead as a result of those first four seals. Since Jesus is the one opening the seals, then He is responsible for those deaths, which is apart of God's wrath.

Even if you are one of those who do not believe that the seals are apart of God's wrath, Surely the trumpets are! The announcement of God's wrath take place at the opening of the 6th seal. Therefore, since the trumpets follow that, they would have to be apart of God's judgment. But the fact is that, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are a set and all belong to God's wrath.

Please explain to all of us why some saints are "raptured" and avoid what you believe to be God's wrath while a multitude of Saints suffer at the hands of the man of sin. Why do some escape while others do not. Please, no opinion. Scripture proof required.

To be clear, it is the church that is gathered at the Lord's appearing. Those whom you call saints, will be those who will not have believed in Christ prior to the gathering, but become believers after the church has been gathered. That is why from Rev.4 onward you will never see the word church appear during the narrative of God's wrath. There is a distinction made between the church and saints her in Revelation. The saints are those who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. They are never referred to as the church. The very fact that the elder is asking John, (who just wrote letters to the seven churches) who this great multitude wearing white robes is, demonstrates that they are not the church. In addition, neither does John know who they are. Therefore the scriptural proof is that, it is those who become believers during the time of God's wrath who those that are not gathered with the church and that because they don't become believers until after the church has been gathered.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.

Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The trumpets are not the wrath of God,and the 6 trumpets are warnings to the world to turn to God,for He is giving them a chance to repent and acknowledge Him...

This statement is completely false and does not correspond to the trumpet judgments at all. Anyone reading from Rev 8-18 can clearly see God's judgments being poured out. God knew that none would repent (Rev 9:20,21):

And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.