Purgatory

[Ahwatukee]

chabad.org
The Soul and the Afterlife

"If the soul requires cleansing of any misdeeds, the soul is sent to Gehinom, which is a heavenly purification depot. The works of Mussar describe Gehinom as a horrific place where excruciating punishments are meted out to the sinner. Based on the nature of sin is how the punishment is administered."

I don't know about Mussar, but the Bible identifies Gehinom as another designation for the lake of fire, not a place in heaven:

HELPS Word-studies
1067 géenna (a transliteration of the Hebrew term, Gêhinnōm, "the valley of Hinnom") – Gehenna, i.e. hell (also referred to as the "lake of fire" in Revelation).

Gehenna ("hell"), the place of post-resurrection torment (judgment), refers strictly to the everlasting abode of the unredeemed where they experience divine judgment in their individual resurrection-bodies. Each of the unredeemed receives one at the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:11-15), i.e. a body that "matches" their capacity for torment relating to their (unique) judgment.

As far as soul requiring cleansing, the Lord took care of that when He paid the penalty for sins by the shedding of His blood. Those who believe in Christ have been credited with His righteousness and have been reconciled to God through faith in Christ. As the scripture states: "If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

 

[jaybird88]

So what? Are you interested in what Christ has to say about these matters, or what men have tried to figure out?

my point is that it was not "invented" by rome hundreds of years after Jesus.

 

[OneFaith]

Paradise is indeed where God's throne is. That is why it is called "the Paradise of God" (Rev 2:7).

Since Christ was in Sheol/Hades immediately after His crucifixion and while His body was in the tomb, and Paradise was in the New Jerusalem in Heaven, that saying of Christ was not literally fulfilled on that day, but since it was anticipated after those three days and three nights in the heart of the earth, it was an accomplished fact for Christ.

When the soul and spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ went to Hades, He did go into the abode of the righteous dead (Abraham's bosom), and then He "preached to the spirits in prison". This was not the preaching of the Gospel but the proclamation of His victory over sin, death, Hades, Hell, and Satan. His voice would have been heard by the unrighteous dead (separated from the righteous dead), as well as the spirits in prison in Tartarus. But after His resurrection, Christ took "Abraham's bosom" or the inhabitants of that region with Him to Paradise. Thus we find "the spirits of just men made perfect" in the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:22-24).

That says the tree of life is in the Paradise of God. Of course Abraham’s side is God’s place. The church is also God’s, but that’s not where His throne is either. After judgement day the tree of life will be in heaven, so will all God’s people.

 

[dcontroversal]

False dogma...there is no such animal!<--Purgatory that is

 

[Nehemiah6]

That says the tree of life is in the Paradise of God.

Yes. So why don't you finish connecting th dots? Abraham's bosom is long gone, and both the OT saints and the Paradise of God (as well as the tree of life) are in the New Jerusalem. So Paradise and the tree of life are not somewhere else and will only be in Heaven "after judgment day". The apostle Paul had visited Paradise during his lifetime. Speaking in the third person, he said: How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Cor 12:4).

 

[MatthewG]

Can some one reconcile these scriptures for me?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,[a] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:1-4
Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


John 12:32 and I, if I (Jesus) may be lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag) all men unto [FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]myself.[/FONT]

Philippians 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


I do not know much about Purgatory, but I do know some scriptures I can use to show something that shows what God desires.

There are many people who believe that Hell is the final destination that those who do not believe will be placed in forever, and ever. There are many people who believe that the Lake of Fire is the final destination that those who do not believe are placed in forever and ever. Sometimes people like to mix both of these places up, and combine them with each other.


I tend to believe in an alternative way from being in either of these places forever, and that is that God doesn't stop reaching out to people even after death. They might not be saved from what is considered Hell/Lake of Fire. But I believe these places are purposeful for God, in getting the desired result He has made for Himself. Of course no one is ever forced to confess Jesus Christ is Lord, besides that they would need the Holy Spirit to do that anyway right? So it would have to be a choice made by the individual, even after death.

Some may have a rebuttal to this. Because people say there is no more chances, after this life. There have been millions of people who have came and gone from this world, why can't they just be with God now, even if they were the most terrible person in existence.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Can some one reconcile these scriptures for me?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,[a] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:1-4
Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


John 12:32 and I, if I (Jesus) may be lifted up from the earth, will draw (drag) all men unto myself.

Philippians 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

What's there to "reconcile"? All these Scriptures are in agreement. God desires the salvation of all, but all will not be saved. Once the unbelieving and the unrighteous are confined to the Lake of Fire, Christ will establish the Kingdom of God throughout the universe, and when that has been accomplished, every knee will bow to Him, and all will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

I tend to believe in an alternative way from being in either of these places forever, and that is that God doesn't stop reaching out to people even after death. They might not be saved from what is considered Hell/Lake of Fire. But I believe these places are purposeful for God, in getting the desired result He has made for Himself. Of course no one is ever forced to confess Jesus Christ is Lord, besides that they would need the Holy Spirit to do that anyway right? So it would have to be a choice made by the individual, even after death.

Well you can speculate all you want, but unless you have actual Scripture to back up your beliefs, they will be pure speculation. The Bible is very clear that there are no second chances after death.

 

[MatthewG]

Nehemiah6, Fair enough friend. Can you show me where scripture does say there are no second chances after death, or where can God stop reaching out to people?

 

[stillness]

False dogma...there is no such animal!<--Purgatory that is

It only makes sense that there is a holding place, until the restoration of all things:. awaiting judgment, for those who are not carried by the Spirit into the first Resurrection: those who have not overcome the world. "For where your treasure is there your heart will be."
Also makes sense that with divisions in the church, as Paul referred: those divided in the mind of the flesh."

 

[Ahwatukee]

Nehemiah6, Fair enough friend. Can you show me where scripture does say there are no second chances after death, or where can God stop reaching out to people?

Greetings MatthewG,

Below is an excerpt from the event of the rich man and Lazarus:

"Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’

But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’

‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’
Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Regarding second chances, if that were true, there wouldn't be a single soul in Hades or the Lake of Fire and that because I guarantee you that as soon as someone experienced the torment of flame there, they would most certainly change their minds and as for a second chance, just as the rich man of Lazarus fame plead for his five brothers. Notice that in the rich man and Lazarus, that the rich man did not ask for a second chance for himself and that because he knew that he was worthy of being there. He did however want to send Lazarus back to his father's house to keep his brothers from going to the same place that he ended up in.

The grace and mercy of God and the offer of salvation is for the living. Once a person dies without Christ, their record is sealed. Like I said, if second chances were possible, there would be no one in Hades and no one would be going to the lake of fire. This is the whole point of the event of the rich man and Lazarus, to demonstrate that there is place of torment after death.

As God’s fellow workers, we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2For He says:

“In the time of favor I heard you,and in the day of salvation I helped you.”

Behold, now is the time of favor; now is the day of salvation!

 

[Ahwatukee]

Some may have a rebuttal to this. Because people say there is no more chances, after this life. There have been millions of people who have came and gone from this world, why can't they just be with God now, even if they were the most terrible person in existence.

If they receive Christ before they die, then they will be with God. But, if they take their last breath without believing in Christ, they are lost. There is simply no scripture that would support people having a chance for salvation after death. For one thing it would not require faith, because they would be experiencing God's punishment as soon as they died. Just like the rich man, there would be no need to convince him of the horrors of separation from God and torment in flame, because he would be experiencing it.

Remember, those in Christ are saved by grace through faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Unless their is a shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sins. Therefore, when a person dies without Christ, they have no righteous blood covering them.

The time of salvation is now while one is still alive. And faith in Christ as the One who provided salvation for us by the shedding of his blood, is the only way to be saved.

 

[TMS]

I don't need to read mans doctrine here, because the bible is plain about the fact that purgatory does not exist.
History seals the argument when you are honest about it. It was invented by the catholic church for various reasons.

 

[Budman]

Can you show me where scripture does say there are no second chances after death, or where can God stop reaching out to people?

Hebrews 9:27.

No second chances - just judgment.

And as stated above, the story of the Rich Man. If anyone would have grabbed at a possible second chance, it would have been him.

 

[TMS]

A subject that is touchy because we all want to believe that our dead relatives are in heaven. But what is the truth?
There are 3 main arguments. 1. The person dies and that is it, no more life ever again.
2. The person’s life ends here but the spirit is immortal and just goes from one place to another, heaven or hell, (purgatory or other beliefs like reincarnation).
3. The person dies and is dead not knowing anything and waiting for the resurrection. Mortal and waiting for Gods life to be given again (Unconscious sleep).

What does “The Word” say..?
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
God made us from dust in the beginning.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it
The body turns to dust again, and the spirit goes back to God, who gave it. The spirit of every person who dies--whether righteous or wicked--returns to God at death.
What is the "spirit" that returns to God at death?
The body without the spirit ["breath"] is dead. James 2:26. "The spirit of God ["the breath which God gave him,"] is in my nostrils.” Job 27:3
The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in all of God's book does the "spirit" have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" and nothing more.
So a soul is two things = Breath of life and a Body.
Dust, Body + Spirit, Breath = A living soul --- Body – Breath = death
A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God's Word teaches that we are souls.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Ezekiel 18:20. “Every living soul died in the sea." Rev 16:3.
According to God's Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Only God is immortal (1 Tim 6:15,16). The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.


What happens when we die?
"All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." John 5:28, 29. "David ... is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29, 34. "If I wait, the grave is mine house." Job 17:13.
People don’t go either to heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day.
How much do we comprehend after death?
"The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5,6, 10. "The dead praise not the Lord." Psalms 115:17.
God says that the dead know absolutely nothing!

Though millions think it is possible, Can the dead communicate with the living, and are they aware of what the living are doing?
"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:12, 21. "Neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:6.
The dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Psalms 146:4).
Jesus calls death "sleep." It is a state of total unconsciousness. John 11:11-14.
The righteous will be raised to life and given immortality at Jesus' second coming.
What happens to the righteous dead at the second coming of Christ?
"Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. "Revelation 22:12. "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, ... and the dead in Christ shall rise ... and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17. "We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ... and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. ... For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.
They will be rewarded. They will be raised, given immortal bodies, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There would be no purpose in a resurrection if people were taken to heaven at death.

The devil's first lie to Eve was "You won't die" - a statement completely contrary to all Scripture.

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die." Genesis 3:4. "That old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan." Revelation 12:9.
Those who believe the dead are alive become easy targets for the devil's deceptions.
Why did the devil lie to Eve about death? Could this subject be more important than many think?
It is one of the cornerstones of the devil's kingdom. He has worked powerful miracles down through the ages through people who claim to receive their power from the spirits of the dead. (Examples: Magicians of Egypt, Exodus 7:11, Woman of Endor, 1 Samuel 28:3-25, Sorcerers, Daniel 2:2, A certain damsel, Acts 16:16-18.)

 

[OtherWay210]

"dead know not anything" : quote, is from Ecclesiastes
It used only of life on earth. Not life after death.

the book offers little insight into that. We cant use it for understanding life after death passages Because its not about that..

 

[MatthewG]

A subject that is touchy because we all want to believe that our dead relatives are in heaven. But what is the truth?
There are 3 main arguments. 1. The person dies and that is it, no more life ever again.
2. The person’s life ends here but the spirit is immortal and just goes from one place to another, heaven or hell, (purgatory or other beliefs like reincarnation).
3. The person dies and is dead not knowing anything and waiting for the resurrection. Mortal and waiting for Gods life to be given again (Unconscious sleep).

Do you know why that is?

Because of Jesus Christ and the freedom He has gave us to believe by the holy spirit that lives inside of us by our faith in Him, by the Grace of God.

Just like this subject here, it can go 3 different ways for 3 different people, yet they agree on the fact Jesus Christ is the Lord, whom came down from Heaven, died on the Cross for sins, and that God raised Him up again on the third day.

It's amazing how subjective the bible can be for person. You can make anything appear out the bible from it's context if you wanted to, and get far off and extremely crazy with it. But it is go for us to stick to scripture, and see what is there, see what it does say.

To those that shared with the parable of Lazarus, and Appointed Once to die, then Judgement. (Thank you)

@Ahwatukee Thank you brother for sharing.
@Budman Thank you brother for sharing.
@Tms Thank you for brother for sharing.

Against the scriptures I shared earlier, I can say this much.

Matthew 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

 

[Ahwatukee]

The body turns to dust again, and the spirit goes back to God, who gave it. The spirit of every person who dies--whether righteous or wicked--returns to God at death.

Hello TMS,

Not according to the event of the rich man and Lazarus nor according to 2 Cor.5:6 and Phil.1:23.

At the time of death for the unrighteous, scripture demonstrates that the spirit departs and goes into Hades, just as the rich man did. In support of this we have scripture stating that after the millennial period that the unrighteous dead will be resurrected out of Hades and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment.

"And there were open books, and one of them was the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds."

The question is, if the spirits of the unrighteous dead return to God, then how is it that we see them being resurrected with their spirits coming out of Hades, which is under the earth?

When person dies, whether saved or unsaved, the spirit is conscious and aware. It is their decision for Christ or lack of, that will determine where the spirit goes at the time of death.

Then there is the visit of Moses and Elijah when Jesus was transformed into his glorified state. Someone earlier tried the apologetic of "it was just a vision," yet the scripture states that Moses and Elijah were speaking with Jesus about His soon departure. Visions don't have conversations.

For those who die in Christ, their spirits depart and go to be in the presence of Christ, where they are waiting for the resurrection from that side.

In short, at the time of death the spirit of the righteous departs and immediately goes to be in the presence of the Lord. In opposition, when the unsaved die their spirits depart and go into Hades, conscious and aware.

 

[OtherWay210]

You cant be judged, if you dont appear before the Judge.

This is why all must be present before the Lord to be Judged.

Life after death should be a fundamental teaching in Christianity.
The fact that many in the forums do Not understand or can't even recall the passages,
and are apt to go with some Non bible explanation, is bad fruit

And people yesing each others ignorant statements, is troubling

I notice too many are not recalling what the Bible says.
People are filling in blanks with conjecture and here say.
Subjects are not being noticed and followed. There is a order to the theology, and people are just mixing and matching what best suits them.

Not good. Consider reviewing the notes i shared prior .

 

[MatthewG]

I have always considered bad fruits, those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and call out every other christian that doesn't do what they do, bad fruit.

The good fruit, are those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and love their neighbor.

Who is to say that there is an order to theology? When Jesus Christ gives us freedom to believe by the holy spirit that lives inside of us? Do you let man guide you, or do you let Spirit guide you?

 

[TMS]

The weight of evidence in the bible tells me that the dead are sleeping, waiting for the resurrection (1st or 2nd), and you need to read the verses in context and with an open mind to see that it is saying.

It is a proven fact that the following verse can be read in two ways, That would depend on your bias.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

It is like that with the rest of the Bible for most people. It depends on your bias. Be honest the evidence is stronger for a state of sleep.


The word “immortal” is found only once in the Bible, and it is in reference to God (1 Tim 1:17).