Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

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Ariel82

Guest
I can believe and not have faith, many do The people in james believed in jesus, they never had true faith. That’s why they had no work, the root of their faith was not christ.


they can be, dependson what kind of belief


Yes, after we are saved, I am talking about the moment we are saved.
I like John Wesley's sermon "the almost Christians" were he distinguishes three different types of "faith"

Firstly, The faith of heathens that knows God is just and has laws and will punish evil doers.

Secindly, The faith of demons that knows God is good, have seen Him, yet rejects to worship Him or look to Him for salvation...


Thirdly, the saving faith that we are sinners in need of a savior and that savior is Christ Jesus and what He did upon the cross: his deatj, burial and resurrection that allows us to be born again children of God.

The law is a tutor that brings us to the realization of our need of a savior.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Hmm...but to my ear you just said you've talked to hundreds of Christians and none of them had a moment where they had faith but it took years to come to faith...yet we are saved through faith.

Define in your own words - what does to have faith mean. Then define what to have belief means.
Faith = ?
Belief = ?
No, i said they had believe but not faith. Faith took time, then it came and they were saved.

Faith = trust, for salvation it is trust in Christ for salvation.

Believe = knowledge which may or may not come with trust. (i can believe the car will get me to my destination, but may not trust it. Will, thus I do not take It, .)

belief may not cause action, faith always will.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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No, i said they had believe but not faith. Faith took time, then it came and they were saved.

Faith = trust, for salvation it is trust in Christ for salvation.

Believe = knowledge which may or may not come with trust. (i can believe the car will get me to my destination, but may not trust it. Will, thus I do not take It, .)

belief may not cause action, faith always will.
I didn't follow that...:D
Let's try this:

1. When you say you have faith in Christ, what do you mean?
2. When you say you believe Christ, what do you mean?
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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Why is it so hard for people to comprehend that belief comes from the individual towards another? Its technically not hard, children believe in Santa, they believe in the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny. It wasn't much of a great work for them to believe in these fairy tales. That a person believes in God, that He isn't a liar, is not that hard of a concept to fathom. This isn't to equate fairy tales with God, but to express the simplicity of belief (and that belief coming from a person).

If it is impossible to please God without faith, this itself being an encouragement to have faith, to believe, then the faith itself is not given by God. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgement, this is towards the goal of repentance, an act of humanity in response to God.

If God simply gives a person faith there would be no need to convict them of such realities of sin, righteousness and judgement. Belief is not a work to boast in, as if one saves their own soul. It is the one in whom they have trusted that gets the glory. Belief is easy, it is God who convicts men and in response to such convincing (God gets the glory), they believe. It is like a lawyer defending his client, he convinces the jury of the client's innocence, and they then believe. Their belief is in response to his convincing, so logically his exposing of the light, the truth, is the work here. They simply have accepted the facts.

Christ died for our sins, paid the penalty of death that we deserved and He rose on the third day unto our justification. These are facts. Belief in them is a result of God's conviction, but it is indeed we who believe as a result of His conviction and work, as He draws us. God draws, we respond, and we wouldn't even have a chance to respond without His first drawing us. So again, no glory here goes to the saved except to say they believed, and this belief was the result of God's conviction.

All glory goes to God.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Powerful and right on!!!:)

Belief and faith are not works and they are not the gift. Salvation is the gift. Choose this day whom you will serve.
God wishes all would come to repentance.

BTW, the burden of proof rests on the prosecution not the defense. Innocent til proven guilty. :p



Why is it so hard for people to comprehend that belief comes from the individual towards another? Its technically not hard, children believe in Santa, they believe in the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny. It wasn't much of a great work for them to believe in these fairy tales. That a person believes in God, that He isn't a liar, is not that hard of a concept to fathom. This isn't to equate fairy tales with God, but to express the simplicity of belief (and that belief coming from a person).

If it is impossible to please God without faith, this itself being an encouragement to have faith, to believe, then the faith itself is not given by God. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgement, this is towards the goal of repentance, an act of humanity in response to God.

If God simply gives a person faith there would be no need to convict them of such realities of sin, righteousness and judgement. Belief is not a work to boast in, as if one saves their own soul. It is the one in whom they have trusted that gets the glory. Belief is easy, it is God who convicts men and in response to such convincing (God gets the glory), they believe. It is like a lawyer defending his client, he convinces the jury of the client's innocence, and they then believe. Their belief is in response to his convincing, so logically his exposing of the light, the truth, is the work here. They simply have accepted the facts.

Christ died for our sins, paid the penalty of death that we deserved and He rose on the third day unto our justification. These are facts. Belief in them is a result of God's conviction, but it is indeed we who believe as a result of His conviction and work, as He draws us. God draws, we respond, and we wouldn't even have a chance to respond without His first drawing us. So again, no glory here goes to the saved except to say they believed, and this belief was the result of God's conviction.

All glory goes to God.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Why is it so hard for people to comprehend that belief comes from the individual towards another? Its technically not hard, children believe in Santa, they believe in the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny. It wasn't much of a great work for them to believe in these fairy tales. That a person believes in God, that He isn't a liar, is not that hard of a concept to fathom. This isn't to equate fairy tales with God, but to express the simplicity of belief (and that belief coming from a person).

If it is impossible to please God without faith, this itself being an encouragement to have faith, to believe, then the faith itself is not given by God. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgement, this is towards the goal of repentance, an act of humanity in response to God.

If God simply gives a person faith there would be no need to convict them of such realities of sin, righteousness and judgement. Belief is not a work to boast in, as if one saves their own soul. It is the one in whom they have trusted that gets the glory. Belief is easy, it is God who convicts men and in response to such convincing (God gets the glory), they believe. It is like a lawyer defending his client, he convinces the jury of the client's innocence, and they then believe. Their belief is in response to his convincing, so logically his exposing of the light, the truth, is the work here. They simply have accepted the facts.

Christ died for our sins, paid the penalty of death that we deserved and He rose on the third day unto our justification. These are facts. Belief in them is a result of God's conviction, but it is indeed we who believe as a result of His conviction and work, as He draws us. God draws, we respond, and we wouldn't even have a chance to respond without His first drawing us. So again, no glory here goes to the saved except to say they believed, and this belief was the result of God's conviction.

All glory goes to God.
You're equating faith in Santa with supernatural faith. Huge mistake, and not one Scripture to back it up? It isn't even expressing the "simplicity of faith" as you attempt to dodge the reality you are in fact equating Biblical faith with faith in fairy tales and fictional characters.

Your attempted disclaimer doesn't erase your error.

Biblical faith isn't inherent, it isn't the faith you're speaking of at all. Biblical faith is obtained, 2 Peter 1:1, is not innate, it is the gift of God, note Ephesians 1:19. You deny that it is a gift of God, which is invalid and unbiblical. Faith comes from God, it is external, coming from God and his word; Romans 10:17.

Also, belief isn't the accepting of facts as if it were some mere mental assent.

You really need to get into Scripture instead of your own thoughts and opinions. You also state that the glory for believing goes to the believer. That's a rather unwise remark. There is no boasting, yet you're suggesting one point man can boast in, and making that his believing. Then you say all glory goes to God? You can't have it both ways, it's one or the other. Again, there is no boasting 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.

It seems you do this often, playing both sides of the issue, this time man gets some glory whole God gets it all. Faith is presented as simple, something we did, as easy as believing in Santa, then you throw in a disclaimer that is "not really" after said remarks.

Please get into Scripture, you're in serious error with your post, it does not represent Biblical faith at all.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Powerful and right on!!!:)

Belief and faith are not works and they are not the gift. Salvation is the gift. Choose this day whom you will serve.
God wishes all would come to repentance.

BTW, the burden of proof rests on the prosecution not the defense. Innocent til proven guilty. :p

But of course... ↑ ↑

Unbelievable. No, wait, I take that back. Totally believable these days.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I didn't follow that...:D
Let's try this:

1. When you say you have faith in Christ, what do you mean?
2. When you say you believe Christ, what do you mean?
faith=trust
belief = mental agreement, with no trust.

ie, I believe jesus was a man, he died on the cross, and was raised,

does not mean i trust him, I may trust my works..

 

Laish

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2016
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Why is it so hard for people to comprehend that belief comes from the individual towards another? Its technically not hard, children believe in Santa, they believe in the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny. It wasn't much of a great work for them to believe in these fairy tales. That a person believes in God, that He isn't a liar, is not that hard of a concept to fathom. This isn't to equate fairy tales with God, but to express the simplicity of belief (and that belief coming from a person).

If it is impossible to please God without faith, this itself being an encouragement to have faith, to believe, then the faith itself is not given by God. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and judgement, this is towards the goal of repentance, an act of humanity in response to God.

If God simply gives a person faith there would be no need to convict them of such realities of sin, righteousness and judgement. Belief is not a work to boast in, as if one saves their own soul. It is the one in whom they have trusted that gets the glory. Belief is easy, it is God who convicts men and in response to such convincing (God gets the glory), they believe. It is like a lawyer defending his client, he convinces the jury of the client's innocence, and they then believe. Their belief is in response to his convincing, so logically his exposing of the light, the truth, is the work here. They simply have accepted the facts.

Christ died for our sins, paid the penalty of death that we deserved and He rose on the third day unto our justification. These are facts. Belief in them is a result of God's conviction, but it is indeed we who believe as a result of His conviction and work, as He draws us. God draws, we respond, and we wouldn't even have a chance to respond without His first drawing us. So again, no glory here goes to the saved except to say they believed, and this belief was the result of God's conviction.

All glory goes to God.
Hello BenFTW as to the question in bold the reason is that that is not how I came to believe sir .
The last thing I wanted to hear was Jesus freak . No insult Ben That just how I felt before I believed .
On the last part in bold why do some who hear or come to know of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ believe while others do not? Are those that have faith just a little bit better than the others ?
Blessings
Bill
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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Are you saying you were never exposed to the Gospel, had never heard of Christ, had never seen a Bible before you were born again? Not likely. The seed of the Gospel had been sown in your heart somewhere along the way. The same for the atheist. He must have been exposed to the rudiments or the Gospel somewhere along the way. And Scripture tells us that the Gospel is the "seed" of the New Birth (1 Pet 1:23-25).

Of course I had heard the gospel multiple times, since I was a child. But, I did not believe it. I didn't even know if Jesus was a real human being who walked the earth, or a made up delusion for weak minded people. (My sister doesn't believe Jesus was an real person, despite all the links and articles I have sent her on contemporaneous scholars who wrote about Jesus!) I was even reading the Bible, but didn't understand it. I had circles around the words and giant question marks in the margins, because I had no idea what anything meant.

Of course, Reformed people believe that people come to Christ through the preaching of the Word. You have created another straw man. The Bible is clear we need to hear the gospel, and every Calvinist I know believes that you must HEAR before God saves you. And we are the ones who should be proclaiming. Which is not to say, that someone picking up a Bible in a hotel room and reading it for the first time, can't be saved. Gideon's was the witness, I guess!

But believe? Never! I was New Age, which either doesn't believe in Jesus, or believes he was "one" of the "Ascended Masters." I remember asking a guru whether he believed in Jesus, and he said, "Yes! I believe in all the Ascended Masters."

Wow! That's not Christian faith. Christian faith, is when God justifies you. Just "believing" can mean anything. We have to believe the right gospel. In fact, God told me that he was the saviour of the world, and loved me. It took many years for me to realize that was part of John 3:16, which I had memorized as a child. But, it never gave me faith, until God quickened my heart and saved me through the power of the Holy Spirit.

God saved me, from beginning to end, I did not save myself. Oh, and I did confess Jesus to everyone I met. I was so excited. But then, why wouldn’t we “confess” or tell everybody what God has done, when we are saved!
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
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Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word...but isn't there an if clause in there just like in Jeremiah 18.

That "if" you shall confess with your mouth and believe in you heart.

Anytime I see the word "if" then to me it means that you are given a choice or option to do something or not to do something...

Romans 10
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Also verse 13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The rest of the chapter goes on to say that yes, Israel heard...but they did not obey...so in their disobedience unto God, in not putting their faith in him and calling upon him, they were not saved.

Now this is my understanding of it, anyhow...

But Greek is not English! The word "if" and your comment that you are given a choice or option is not reflected at all in the Greek.

There are 4 kinds of conditional clauses in Koine Greek, including one that says, IF this is true.... THEN this is true. That is the First Class Conditional. So, never assume because it is that way in English, it is the same for Greek or any other language.

"[FONT=&quot]ὅτι ἐὰν [/FONT][FONT=&quot]ὁμολογήσῃς ἐν τῷ στόματί [/FONT][FONT=&quot]σου κύριον Ἰησοῦν, καὶ πιστεύσῃς ἐν τῇ καρδίᾳ σου ὅτι ὁ θεὸς αὐτὸν ἤγειρεν ἐκ νεκρῶν, σωθήσῃ·"Romans 10:9 Greek[/FONT]

The conditional classes that use εί and ἐάν, are generally translated as "if." This verse, uses an ἐάν conjunction, making it into a 3rd Class Conditional sentence, which is introduced by ἐάν and a verb in the subjunctive. [FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]ὁμολογήσῃς [/FONT][FONT=&quot]which is Aorist Subjunctive Active, meaning "to agree, confess, proclaim." I believe this means that confession is an axiomatic truth, leading to the apodosis, which is [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]σωθήσῃ [/FONT](soothes) (to be saved!) which is Future Indicative Passive, making it a divine passive -indicating that God saves you.

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]ὅτι [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]under normal circumstances usually means, "that, since, because." In fact, NET uses, "because" as the subordinate conjunction. ESV also uses "because," and NASB use "that." NIV, surprisingly does not translate the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]ὅτι.[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]

[/FONT]"because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT]

According to Bauer (BDAG), my Greek lexicon, [FONT=&quot]ὅτι[/FONT] is translated as a marker of causality. "For this reason" or "because" or "that" followed by "if" you confess your sins..... Not really any option offered, at all.

In fact, a Third Class Conditional is more firm than our English way of using "if." "If" something might happen, and there is a possibility that it will, then something else definitely happens. The speaker is thinking of a specific event. So, the if, refers to the first part of the clause (the protasis) that IF something might happen, and it definitely will, then something else definitely will happen. No chance it will not.

The use of the passive verbs, as required after both [FONT=&quot]ὅτι[/FONT] and [FONT=&quot]ἐὰν,[/FONT] are not something that is only possible, but in fact, will happen. And of course, the divine passive [FONT=&quot]σωθήσῃ[/FONT] means God causes it to come to pass. And although it seems to say that confession is necessary first, in 10:9, the next verse, 10:10 reverses the order, so that heart one believes is first, then with the mouth one confession.

It is thought that these verses which acclaim Jesus as Lord, are a very early an very central element of Christian conviction, as well as the conviction that God raised Jesus from the dead. Paul's focus here on Christ's resurrection and the resurrection alone, is "often set before us as an assurance of our salvation, not to draw away our attention from his death, but because it bears witness to the efficacy and fruit of his death."
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Three people

1. Has faith in God and trust in salvation

2. Has faith in self working for salvation

3. Has faith in self, believes in god thinks everyone will be saved.

which person is more worthy of salvation?

My answer, neither.. why would I say this?
 

Laish

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2016
1,666
448
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Three people

1. Has faith in God and trust in salvation

2. Has faith in self working for salvation

3. Has faith in self, believes in god thinks everyone will be saved.

which person is more worthy of salvation?

My answer, neither.. why would I say this?
Grace .
Blessings
Bill
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
No not that it made them unworthy but it saves the unworthy. It is only by Grace that any one is saved .
Blessings
Bill

Yes, so whihc one earned grace?
 
Nov 12, 2015
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faith=trust
belief = mental agreement, with no trust.

ie, I believe jesus was a man, he died on the cross, and was raised,

does not mean i trust him, I may trust my works..

So...when Jesus said this is the only work God wants from you, to believe the one He sent, God meant you must mentally agree with Jesus, but that does not necessarily mean you must trust Him, because you cannot trust Him right away because it is a process to trust Him?

So a man can be saved by mental agreement with Jesus but without trusting Him?

If you believe, as you say, that Jesus was a man, died on the cross and was raised, but you don't trust Him, have you believed anything other than what the demons believe?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
None that would turn Grace into payback .
Blessings
Bill
Exactly

they were all unworthy because they all sinned
none of the earned grace, thus non saved themselves.
but only one is saved
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
So...when Jesus said this is the only work God wants from you, to believe the one He sent, God meant you must mentally agree with Jesus, but that does not necessarily mean you must trust Him, because you cannot trust Him right away because it is a process to trust Him?

So a man can be saved by mental agreement with Jesus but without trusting Him?

If you believe, as you say, that Jesus was a man, died on the cross and was raised, but you don't trust Him, have you believed anything other than what the demons believe?
I said belief has different forms.

that is not mental agreement, that is trust. More than mere belief