Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith
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What I am saying is in line with Scripture. This is the condition of a person before being born again :
I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God’s law with all my heart. But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.
Romans 7:21*-25 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/rom.7.21-25.NLT
I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. I love God’s law with all my heart. But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.
Romans 7:21*-25 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/rom.7.21-25.NLT
Actually it it set it in order, who are the just? They are the justified and they shall live by faith and Jesus is the one that placed the new birth before faith, John 3:3 “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Paul also teaches the same Ephesians 2:4-5 “But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),”
Why did He make us alive when we were dead in tespasses, because of the great love with which He loved us and He is rich in mercy towards those He loves. He demonstrated His love towards the world by giving up His only Son, bit shows His love towards us by making us alive while we are dead in trespasses and cannot see the kingdom of God. He opens the minds that the god of this world has blinded and makes spiritually dead people that cannot understand spiritual things or His kingdom, makes them alive so they can see the kingdom of God. Once they see the kingdom they can be born of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.
I Corinthians 2:14 “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
II Corinthians 4:3-4 “And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”
The pronoun here "us" is not speaking of the world, but it is speaking of His people/sheep/Church/elect. Because of that great love of which He loved us, He made us alive so that Ephesians 2:6-7 “6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.”
Showing His “immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us” since He loves us with a great love now we can see the kingdom be born again so that we can enter the kingdom, but while we are living on earth we are justified and live by faith, that is where verses 8-9 are “8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
We are saved or justified by grace, being justified we live as Habakkuk said in 2:4 by faith as both Habakkuk and Paul says here is Ephesinas 2:8 and Romans 1:17, Galatians 2:16, 3:11-12 and Hebrews 10:38. The just or justified shall live by/in/through faith and what is even more beautiful is He gives us that faith. Romans 12:3 “For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.”
Romamns 12:3 “For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.”
That great love with which He has loved us has the “immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us” that is a beautiful thing that the Lord of the universe loves us to the point that He makes us alive to see/understand/discern the kingdom of God that we can be born again to enter the kingdom of God, Hallelujah praise the Lord of all creation!!!
This is one of the most misunderstood, misinterpreted, and misapplied Scriptures from the Gospel of John. Calvinists distort its meaning to suggest that the Father draws some men to Christ, while He shuts out others from salvation. The context shows that the truth is the exact opposite, and that it is the desire of the Father to draw ALL MEN to Christ. So let's look at the context (John 6:30-51):
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
1. THE MEANING OF “DRAW” IS TO LEAD OR PERSUADE INWARDLY
Strong's Concordance
helkó: to drag
Original Word: ἑλκύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: helkó
Phonetic Spelling: (hel-koo'-o)
Short Definition: I drag, draw, pull, persuade
Definition: I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1670: ἑλκύω
ἑλκύω, see ἕλκω.
2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ...ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.;ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8
2. THOSE WORDS WERE SPOKEN WITHIN A PARTICULAR CONTEXT
The context is the unbelief of the Jews in spite of all the miracles done by Christ. So they ask Him contemptuously “What sign showest thou then...?” The response of the Lord is not with another miracle (since He would not do miracles where there was gross unbelief) but offering Himself as the Bread of Life: “And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.”
3. THE BREAD OF LIFE WAS GIVEN “FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD”
This is the key teaching which Calvinists simply ignore, since to acknowledge it would mean that their whole system of Five Point Calvinism would have to be thrown out the window. It is critical to understand that in view of all the Scriptures pertaining to the atoning work of Christ, there can be only one conclusion: That Jesus Christ is the propitiation (the Lamb of God) for the sins of the whole world. Therefore it was perfectly consistent for Him to make these statements shown below:
“ For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.” ...
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
4. IT IS UNBELIEF THAT SHUTS OUT THE BREAD OF LIFE, NOT THE FATHER
We need to note carefully how these Jews deliberately rejected Christ’s offer of eternal life over and over again in spite of His multiple offers. Thus we see in this passage that it is unbelief – rejection of Christ – which shuts out men from salvation: But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not... The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
5. THE BELIEVING ONES ARE THE ONES GIVEN TO CHRIST BY THE FATHER
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out... And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day... Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
1. THE MEANING OF “DRAW” IS TO LEAD OR PERSUADE INWARDLY
Strong's Concordance
helkó: to drag
Original Word: ἑλκύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: helkó
Phonetic Spelling: (hel-koo'-o)
Short Definition: I drag, draw, pull, persuade
Definition: I drag, draw, pull, persuade, unsheathe.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1670: ἑλκύω
ἑλκύω, see ἕλκω.
2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ...ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.;ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8
2. THOSE WORDS WERE SPOKEN WITHIN A PARTICULAR CONTEXT
The context is the unbelief of the Jews in spite of all the miracles done by Christ. So they ask Him contemptuously “What sign showest thou then...?” The response of the Lord is not with another miracle (since He would not do miracles where there was gross unbelief) but offering Himself as the Bread of Life: “And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.”
3. THE BREAD OF LIFE WAS GIVEN “FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD”
This is the key teaching which Calvinists simply ignore, since to acknowledge it would mean that their whole system of Five Point Calvinism would have to be thrown out the window. It is critical to understand that in view of all the Scriptures pertaining to the atoning work of Christ, there can be only one conclusion: That Jesus Christ is the propitiation (the Lamb of God) for the sins of the whole world. Therefore it was perfectly consistent for Him to make these statements shown below:
“ For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.” ...
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
4. IT IS UNBELIEF THAT SHUTS OUT THE BREAD OF LIFE, NOT THE FATHER
We need to note carefully how these Jews deliberately rejected Christ’s offer of eternal life over and over again in spite of His multiple offers. Thus we see in this passage that it is unbelief – rejection of Christ – which shuts out men from salvation: But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not... The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
5. THE BELIEVING ONES ARE THE ONES GIVEN TO CHRIST BY THE FATHER
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out... And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day... Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
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Of course you don't know what you're talking about here and are making a common mistake, albeit a very serious mistake.
You're using language wrongly and conflating "not able to do anything" between what a lost person can do spiritually concerning salvation, and, what the lost can do concerning any other issue.
Your statement then is a serious misconception.
We're not talking about the spiritually dead being "unable to do anything." "Anything" is not the issue, we're talking the salvation of the soul of a person spiritually dead. (Not that you'll see it, admit your error, that your statement is misleading, or accept you are unbiblical this is intended for others willing to think, see and who want to follow what Christ taught.)
Let's correct this error with truth, my favorite part! Here it is:
Jesus said no man is able ("ability" is negated) to come to him; John 10:29. Jesus said, concerning human ability, that the flesh profits nothing in salvation; John 6:63. You say this isn't true in your asserted argument, turning what he said on its head.
Who we are to believe in this matter is quite apparent.
You're using language wrongly and conflating "not able to do anything" between what a lost person can do spiritually concerning salvation, and, what the lost can do concerning any other issue.
Your statement then is a serious misconception.
We're not talking about the spiritually dead being "unable to do anything." "Anything" is not the issue, we're talking the salvation of the soul of a person spiritually dead. (Not that you'll see it, admit your error, that your statement is misleading, or accept you are unbiblical this is intended for others willing to think, see and who want to follow what Christ taught.)
Let's correct this error with truth, my favorite part! Here it is:
Jesus said no man is able ("ability" is negated) to come to him; John 10:29. Jesus said, concerning human ability, that the flesh profits nothing in salvation; John 6:63. You say this isn't true in your asserted argument, turning what he said on its head.
Who we are to believe in this matter is quite apparent.
[h=1]Luke 9:60New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][FONT="]60 Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God.”
These people were PHYSICALLY alive. A physically dead person cannot bury another physically dead person.
It is quite clear Jesus is referring to them being SPIRITUALLY dead.
So if they are Spiritually dead, how can their FLESH reach out to be saved Spiritually?
They must be born again. NOT by the will of any man, INCLUDING THEMSELVES.
[/FONT]
[h=1]John 1:13New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][FONT="]13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
I struggle with the free will thing. But most of my struggle boils down to "if I were God ------" Fill in the blank.
I don't think it's possible to completely reconcile the concepts of free will vs. God's absolute Sovereignty. I am content knowing He loves me and I love Him, and if He chooses to reveal this mystery to me, GREAT!
I think NO less of those who may believe differently than me in this regard. We both trust in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.[/FONT]
These people were PHYSICALLY alive. A physically dead person cannot bury another physically dead person.
It is quite clear Jesus is referring to them being SPIRITUALLY dead.
So if they are Spiritually dead, how can their FLESH reach out to be saved Spiritually?
They must be born again. NOT by the will of any man, INCLUDING THEMSELVES.
[/FONT]
[h=1]John 1:13New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][FONT="]13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
I struggle with the free will thing. But most of my struggle boils down to "if I were God ------" Fill in the blank.
I don't think it's possible to completely reconcile the concepts of free will vs. God's absolute Sovereignty. I am content knowing He loves me and I love Him, and if He chooses to reveal this mystery to me, GREAT!
I think NO less of those who may believe differently than me in this regard. We both trust in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.[/FONT]
But Scripture doesn't say any lost person has a measure of faith brother. As you know, and admit above "COULD" that is pure hypothesis and not found in Scripture. What we do know from Scripture is God saves some, and, that all those of whom he saves he grants faith.
BINGO!!! I know this is where you want to get all of your truth! We must stay there and stay away from conjecture.
Yes, and amen! If it were not for this none would be saved.
BINGO!!! I know this is where you want to get all of your truth! We must stay there and stay away from conjecture.
Yes, and amen! If it were not for this none would be saved.
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People are not absolutely spiritualy dead as Calvinists misinterpret the Scriptures. If man was absolutely spiritualy dead then we wouldn't read such things as this:
Even if Noah, Daniel, and Job were there, their righteousness would save no one but themselves, says the Sovereign Lord .
Ezekiel 14:14 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/ezk.14.14.NLT
Even if Noah, Daniel, and Job were there, their righteousness would save no one but themselves, says the Sovereign Lord .
Ezekiel 14:14 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/ezk.14.14.NLT
Man, talk about taking Scripture out of context! Oh, and I fixed the above for you.
Abel also brought a gift—the best portions of the firstborn lambs from his flock. The Lord accepted Abel and his gift,
Genesis 4:4 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/gen.4.4.NLT