Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

[stonesoffire]

I'm aPauled here....

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

cool, I'm apauled with you.

 

[Anette]

I think in Acts 14:8 it says those predestined to life believed. If your theory were correct, it ought to say those who believe are destined to life. But it's the other way around.

 

[preacher4truth]

Excuse my ignorance but I don't get it.

It means I'm watching you two while intently eating popcorn. Unless I'm not.

 

[preacher4truth]

Patience, brother!

Some people don't recognize their own misunderstandings; and give voice to them as if they knew what they were talking about.

We may disagree on limited atonement; but I don't like the idea of distorting other people's positions either.


At least we manage to disagree without disrespecting each other.

I agree! Now, if my post offended you, I apologize. I did however say it in jovial fashion, and don't see it as polemic or disrespectful.

 

[preacher4truth]

I think in Acts 14:8 it says those predestined to life believed. If your theory were correct, it ought to say those who believe are destined to life. But it's the other way around.

Exactly correct!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You're saying that God got them to repent by lying to them. If God knew ahead of time that Nineveh was going to repent and in turn He was not going to destroy them, then the statement, "Yet forty days and Nineveh shall be overthrown" is a lie knowing full well He was not going to overthrown them. That's not God. God is not a liar. Let Scripture define what omniscience means and not man. Where do you get your definitions?

No God did not lie to them, Again, Done with this, agree to disagree.

 

[Locutus]

cool, I'm apauled with you.

I think Bone's could be forgiven for making some provisions for the flesh -------->

 

[Nehemiah6]

I think in Acts 14:8 it says those predestined to life believed.

Actually that is Acts 13:48, and the word is NOT predestined but "ordained" or "appointed" to eternal life.

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Strong's Concordance (5021)​

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tassó: to draw up in order, arrange
Original Word: τάσσω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: tassó
Phonetic Spelling: (tas'-so)
Short Definition: I assign, arrange
Definition: (a) I assign, arrange, (b) I determine; mid: I appoint.

HELPS Word-studies
5021 tássō – properly, arrange (put in order); to place in a particular order, appoint; (figuratively) ordain, set in place; "station" (J. Thayer).

5021 /tássō ("place in position, post") was commonly used in ancient military language for "designating" ("appointing, commissioning") a specific status, i.e. arranging (placing) in a deliberate, fixed order.

[5021 (tássō) was "primarily a military term meaning 'to draw up in order, arrange in place, assign, appoint, order' " (A-S).]

So what it means on the surface is that those who were assigned to eternal life believed. This is an allusion to God's foreknowledge in that He already knows who will believe and who will not, and He assigns eternal life to those who will believe.

At the same time nowhere does Scripture say that God decrees the salvation of some and the damnation of others. On the contrary the Lord Jesus Christ plainly stated that He was sent into the world so that "the world through Him might be saved" (John 3:17). Since God cannot contradict Himself, we must reject the notion that God predestines some for eternal life and others for eternal damnation. That violates the very nature of God.
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[preacher4truth]

Actually

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[TD]This is an allusion to God's foreknowledge in that He already knows who will believe and who will not, and He assigns eternal life to those who will believe.[/TD]
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Completely unbiblical, and shows the incessant carnal attempts of man to mitigate God's Sovereign and unconditional election in order to place it in the hands of men.

God doesn't need man to "get him off the hook" but man keeps trying because man thinks his ways are "unfair" Romans 9:20.

That is the entire reason for the above post.

God chooses whom he wills based upon his own purpose and grace, and based upon nothing in or of man; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31; Ephesians 1; James 1:18; John 1:13; 2 Thessalonians 2:13 &c.

Here is what these unbiblical people are then saying: "I was a good person because God looked down through time and saw I would come to him out of pure love and accept him and so he rewarded me with, I mean gave me the gift of salvation for what he knew I would do!!!"

Um, no. Thank God that isn't true because: Soli Deo Gloria!!!!

 

[Magenta]

I'm aPauled here....

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Their tenets are untenable!

 

[Magenta]

cool, I'm apauled with you.

I shall applaud you

As we plod the road to happy destiny...

 

[Nehemiah6]

Completely unbiblical, and shows the incessant carnal attempts of man to mitigate God's Sovereign and unconditional election in order to place it in the hands of men.

Unconditional election is pure fiction. And no one is saved because they are so wonderful. All men are sinners and all need to repent and be converted. But since God commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT (Acts 17:30) it follows that He will save all if all will repent. That totally demolishes unconditional election.

 

[Magenta]

Unconditional election is pure fiction. And no one is saved because they are so wonderful. All men are sinners and all need to repent and be converted. But since God commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT (Acts 17:30) it follows that He will save all if all will repent. That totally demolishes unconditional election.

They could just turn around and say all were predestined.

Universalism is then lobbed into their court

 

[preacher4truth]

Unconditional election is pure fiction. And no one is saved because they are so wonderful. All men are sinners and all need to repent and be converted. But since God commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT (Acts 17:30) it follows that He will save all if all will repent. That totally demolishes unconditional election.

Yes, I know, you believe the true Gospel is fiction, so you made up your own gospel.

I get it: God chose you for being a good little boy and voting for him in your own ability and choosing. Then he rewarded you for your decision.

Oh, God does command men everywhere to repent. Why? Because he is just. Wherefore? He is commanding his people out of all nations and tribes to repent whom he elected before the foundation of the world. That's right, he chose whom he would save and only saves them, based upon nothing in them. This is the sense of 2 Peter 3:9, waiting for his elect to come to repentance.

You say he saved you because of something in you and because you did something, and that's a sad fact, and a false gospel.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

So, I have a life, and I am so far behind on the comments, I'm just going to give up the thought of catching yup. But, this post from the earlier pages just must be addressed!


Well, you just lost all credibilty with this post! Because, you don’t know anything about Greek. Or, if you do, then post what you think it says, feel free to exegete the Greek.

For that matter, there is NO GREEK in your post. Greek is a language that needs to be studied for years. Have you done that? I thought not!

Or, to save you some time, I will do exegete the verse for you. Since you do not have a clue! First, the verse in modern English, so I can read it. Oh, and in context! Very important!

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!— 6 and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them." Eph. 2:4-10

“τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·9 οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, ἵνα μή τις καυχήσηται.” Eph. 2:8-9 Greek

χάριτί - dative singular - grace. Instrumental Dative "by grace." The definite article (τῇ) appears with the word because it is the grace already mentioned. vv 5, 7. The work of the article refers to a concrete application of the abstract noun, namely the work of redemption as a concrete historical fact.

σεσῳσμένοι - Perfect Passive Participle (v 5) -to rescue, save. Perfect points to the completed action with a continuing result, thus emphasizing the continual state or condition. Pf Pass Ptcp should really be translated "have been saved" to emphasis it is completed, but it is important to see that the words have continuing results in the present/future. Use of the verb ἐστε (you - second person plural present tense) is a periphrastic construction, emphasizing the continuing results of one's salvation. This salvation delivers people who are dead in transgressions and are eternally separated from God and can only expect God's wrath.

Again, it could be translated "you have been saved" (ASV, RSV, NASB, TEV, JB, NIV, NJB, NRSV) but the translation "you are saved" conveys the continuing results of being saved. (AV, HCSB, NEB, NET) "Grace" is the objective cause or basis of salvation, and "through faith" is the subjective means by which one is saved. Calvin states that a person must receive by faith the salvation offered to him or her by the hand of God.

διὰ πίστεως - through faith. The preposition διὰindicates the channel through which salvation comes. Faith is NOT viewed as a positive work or accomplishment of the individual. (In other words, you do NOT have faith first!) Only on the basis of grace are people delivered from their desperate situation of sinfulness which separates them from God.

θεοῦ - of God (Genitive 3rd person singular) - the genitive emphasized by its position before the noun and stand in emphatic contrast with the personal pronoun ὑμῶν,(you- Genitive second person plural)

The definitions of these words are from "The Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament" Cleon & Cleon.

So, what does this mean, when we put the sentence together? What is the Greek saying?

First, which is my belief, "by faith" is inseparable companion of "by grace" and together the two expressions stand in stark contrast to any human merit. If God's grace is the ground of salvation, then faith is the means by which it is appropriated. And faith cannot be a meritorious work; it is the response which receives what has already been done for us in Christ.

In order to stress that salvation is by God's grace alone and through faith, Paul adds two balancing negatives: first, "and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. (8b) and second, "not by works, so that anyone can boast." (v9) The first clause, emphasizes the divine initiative and activity. The point being made is that the response of faith does not come from any human source but it is God's gift. In fact, grammatically speaking, the context demands that "this" be understood of salvation, by grace as a whole, including faith (or faithfulness) through which it is received. No separating faith, grace and salvation at all!

God's magnificent rescue from death, wrath and bondage is all of grace. It neither originates in nor is affected by the readers. The divine intention in providing salvation apart from any human effort or achievement is to exclude all human boasting.

The "gift" is that which is outside ourselves and is to be received. Therefore, the gift of salvation has its origin in God, its basis in faith, and it is received by means of faith.

In conclusion, if salvation is a gift of grace, then human beings can do nothing to achieve it. It is God's work, a gift extended with the cause being purely in God's character, not in the character or conduct of any person. No act or virtue can be presented to God to gain acceptance. Remember, grace is God's giving himself to us. We are valued by grace, but the attention is not on us, but on the God who loves so deeply. Grace moves us to worship and true humility. Grace is not just the beginning of the Christian life, but the whole.

To me, this can be summed up to mean "Salvation is all about God!"

Other sources:

Klyne Snodgrass - Ephesians, The NIV Application Commentary

Peter T. O'Brien - The Letter to the Ephesians Pillar New Testament Commentary

Harold W. Boehner - Ephesians: An Exegetical Commentary

I said the gift is referring to Salvation so why are you attacking me?

 

[preacher4truth]

They could just turn around and say all were predestined.

Universalism is then lobbed into their court

Only the elect are predestined, but Universalism is lodged in your court because you falsely believe he paid for the sins of every person who ever lived, and that he draws each and every person who ever lived.

But biblically, all who are drawn, come, and all who come are saved, and each of these will be raised. So, when you preach in error all are drawn, you're preaching Universalism in your misunderstanding. This shows the glaring error of your belief in universal atonement and universal drawing.

But I digress, you're not well studied or well versed in doctrine and hold to many errors.

 

[posthuman]

I said the gift is referring to Salvation so why are you attacking me?

She's not attacking you. She's actually doing the bit you didn't actually do in the post of yours she quoted.

Just so happens that when a person actually does that bit, you turn out to be mistaken in what you've said. Salvation, grace and faith are inextricably interwoven and are all Gods handiwork - as Angela showed us, the Greek reveals that in its grammar.

 

[John146]

Yes, I know, you believe the true Gospel is fiction, so you made up your own gospel.

I get it: God chose you for being a good little boy and voting for him in your own ability and choosing. Then he rewarded you for your decision.

Oh, God does command men everywhere to repent. Why? Because he is just. Wherefore? He is commanding his people out of all nations and tribes to repent whom he elected before the foundation of the world. That's right, he chose whom he would save and only saves them, based upon nothing in them. This is the sense of 2 Peter 3:9, waiting for his elect to come to repentance.

You say he saved you because of something in you and because you did something, and that's a sad fact, and a false gospel.

Remember Nehemiah6, when Scripture uses the word "all" it is referring to all the elect, not all people.

 

[UnderGrace]

A very sad, sad, sad tale of fiction

Unconditional election is pure fiction. And no one is saved because they are so wonderful. All men are sinners and all need to repent and be converted. But since God commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT (Acts 17:30) it follows that He will save all if all will repent. That totally demolishes unconditional election.

 

[Magenta]

Remember Nehemiah6, when Scripture uses the word "all" it is referring to all the elect, not all people.

And the whole world is not the whole world, either!