Calvinists: The Just Shall Live BEFORE Having Faith

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Jan 6, 2018
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#1
Calvinism's order of salvation places the new birth BEFORE having faith in Christ. That logic turns Hab 2:4 on its head "the just shall live by his faith" into " the just shall live and they don't even have to believe in God first".
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#2
Calvinism's order of salvation places the new birth BEFORE having faith in Christ.
Yes that is what they believe, since they believe that God elects some for salvation, therefore they received faith as a gift. But that does not correspond to what the Bible actually reveals about salvation.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#3
Yes that is what they believe, since they believe that God elects some for salvation, therefore they received faith as a gift. But that does not correspond to what the Bible actually reveals about salvation.
They believe you can be an atheist and get born again. One doesn't have to even believe in God nor the Gospel.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#4
This is not true what you are stating here, it is more complicated than this.

The person (atheist) will believe but the belief will come from God.


They believe you can be an atheist and get born again. One doesn't have to even believe in God nor the Gospel.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#5
This is not true what you are stating here, it is more complicated than this.

The person (atheist) will believe but the belief will come from God.
I am correct because you, as a Calvinist, would say the atheist becomes born again first, before they ever believe that God exists.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#6
They believe you can be an atheist and get born again. One doesn't have to even believe in God nor the Gospel.
The above isn't true...except for the fact that yes, atheists can get born again, but they're no longer atheists. The latter part is just asinine.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#7
They believe you can be an atheist and get born again. One doesn't have to even believe in God nor the Gospel.
Not exactly. But they do reverse the order of salvation, as seen in this quotation from Spurgeon (who never gets to the heart of the issue and actually explains how this is even possible).

Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man.

The Bible clearly teaches the opposite -- BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ AND THOU SHALT BE SAVED.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#8
Just love how alleged believers make up what others believe. LOL!!!!!!! :D
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#9
The above isn't true...except for the fact that yes, atheists can get born again, but they're no longer atheists. The latter part is just asinine.
I am correct. Prove that I am wrong. Even you admitted in another thread that God in His soverignty chooses to show mercy on whoever He wills not based on who has faith in Christ.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#10
Well I do not really identify with any "ism" completely so your assumption there is wrong.

It might be best to do a bit more research on your topic so that illogical statements are not made.

I am correct because you, as a Calvinist, would say the atheist becomes born again first, before they ever believe that God exists.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#11
I am correct. Prove that I am wrong. Even you admitted in another thread that God in His soverignty chooses to show mercy on whoever He wills not based on who has faith in Christ.
And this post has absolutely nothing to do with my response. You make an asinine and unsubstantiated claim, yet want to be proven wrong? The burden of proof is on you to prove your statements. You've offered zero proof, just an accusation.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#12
Well I do not really identify with any "ism" completely so your assumption there is wrong.

It might be best to do a bit more research on your topic so that illogical statements are not made.
I'm completely logical.
 
Jan 6, 2018
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#13
And this post has absolutely nothing to do with my response. You make an asinine and unsubstantiated claim, yet want to be proven wrong? The burden of proof is on you to prove your statements. You've offered zero proof, just an accusation.
You just proved me correct otherwise you would have denied you said that...but then you would be lying because you did say that.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#14
You just proved me correct otherwise you would have denied you said that...but then you would be lying because you did say that.
I said part of that, God has mercy on whom he wills, and this is true, you added the ending. You're just trying to change the subject since you made a foolish and unsubstantiated claim.

But none of that has a thing to do with my post you responded to.

Atheists can be born again, then they are no longer atheists. Calvinists don't teach a person can be saved without believing in God or the Gospel as you've claimed, that's an outright lie.

That's what we're dealing with, your asinine statement, not that God has mercy on whom he wills, which is another subject altogether. All this from you who demands others stay on topic, while you don't.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
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#16
Just love how alleged believers make up what others believe. LOL!!!!!!! :D
Since I have quoted the exact words from one of Spurgeon's sermons, why don't you enlighten us as to how it is possible for the New Birth to PRECEDE faith? And give us Bible examples of this strange phenomenon.

And putting "alleged" before believers is suggesting that they are not really saved -- questioning their salvation. Another one of your belligerent tactics.
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
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#17
Just love how alleged believers make up what others believe. LOL!!!!!!! :D
from that same sermon;


II. We must now pass on to show that WHEREVER IT EXISTS IT IS THE PROOF OF REGENERATION.

There never was a grain of such faith as this in the world, except in a regenerate soul, and there never will be while the world standeth. It is so according to the text, and if we had no other testimony this one passage would be quite enough to prove it. "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.

Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#18
I am correct because you, as a Calvinist, would say the atheist becomes born again first, before they ever believe that God exists.

You're just as correct on both statements in one sentence.
1. UnderGrace isn't a Calvinist.
2. You can't be a born again atheist.

Ever actually consider learning what Calvinism is all about before spouting off about stuff absolutely no one believes -- atheists, Calvinists, nor Christians?
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#19
from that same sermon;


II. We must now pass on to show that WHEREVER IT EXISTS IT IS THE PROOF OF REGENERATION.

There never was a grain of such faith as this in the world, except in a regenerate soul, and there never will be while the world standeth. It is so according to the text, and if we had no other testimony this one passage would be quite enough to prove it. "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.

Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man.
So he left that part out? Of course!
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
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#20
from that same sermon;


II. We must now pass on to show that WHEREVER IT EXISTS IT IS THE PROOF OF REGENERATION.

There never was a grain of such faith as this in the world, except in a regenerate soul, and there never will be while the world standeth. It is so according to the text, and if we had no other testimony this one passage would be quite enough to prove it. "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.

Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man.
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/spurgeon_regfaith.html