Subjective Christianity

MatthewG · Jan 27, 2018

What is the best way to explain this concept called Subjective Christianity?
I'm gonna try to explain it to you using rock, paper, scissors.

The Rock represents the (Law), written in stone, what Moses brought down from the mountains.
The Rock breaks the Paper the (Spirit), but it is engulfed by Paper (The Word of God)

Rock - Written Law

1. Old Covenant Approach to God
2. Joseph Smith
3. Legalisms
4. Temple Rights, Priesthood
5. Certain Religiosity

Summarized:
"We believe all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel, by and through the atonement of Christ"

Paper - Word of God

1. Is The written word of God
2. New Testament Approach to God
3. Chuck Smith - Christian man, established non-denominational church which is no Calvary Chapel which is pretty much denominational now.
4. Attempt at Objective Religion - We can take the word of God, and we can objectively practice religion using it's tenants.
5. Ist, Isms. This is the result of Calvinism, Arminianism, or whatever ist or ism. That can causes divisions.
6. Factions and sectarianism - Because of different beliefs because of division of ist and isms. Causing some to say this way is better, we are doing it right, that way is wrong you are in the wrong.

Summarized:
"Accepting our view of our view of biblical interpretation mandatory to be considered a saved christian, to make sure they are legitimate in their Faith."

Scissors - The Spirit

1. Spirit
2. The Holy Spirit Approach - where the holy spirit leads and guides a believer in God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and governs.
3. Subjective relationship with God through Christ.
4. Freedom in Christ Jesus to Love, God and Others.

Summarized:
The Spirit is primary and preferential
The Word of God is secondary, referential (We refer and look to understand what we are reading and what we are being taught)

Remember that the Scissors or the Spirit is broken by the Rock, and all of it's authorities and demands that is placed on a believer in Christ Jesus who has been set free of these burdens by the holy spirit (the Law kills the Spirit).

The Spirit Cuts through the Word of God, and From what we have learned from the Word of God and What Jesus Christ has taught us we know we are to Love God to love others, so that may love triumph over everything in your life in Christ Jesus.

Religious traditions, are not our not primary and secondary objective on how we live the christian life.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Thank you for reading this, and I hope that it makes some sense to you, God bless.

Shamah · Jan 27, 2018

Revelation 15:3, “And they sing the song of Mosheh the servant of יהוה, and the song of the Lamb, saying, “Great and marvelous are Your works, יהוה Strength Almighty! Righteous and true are Your ways, O Sovereign of the set-apart ones!”

Exodus 31:18, “And when He had ended speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Mosheh two tablets of the Witness, tablets of stone, written with the finger of the Mighty One.”

Isaiah 53:1-5, “1, Who has believed our report? And to whom was the arm of יהוה revealed?"2, "For He grew up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or splendor that we should look upon Him, nor appearance that we should desire Him –"3, "despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and knowing sickness. And as one from whom the face is hidden, being despised, and we did not consider Him."4, "Truly, He has borne our sicknesses and carried our pains. Yet we reckoned Him smitten·, stricken by Yah, and afflicted."5, "But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our crookednesses. The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.”

Isaiah 8:20, "To the Law and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Deuteronomy 5:22, “These Words יהוה spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a loud voice, and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.”

Isaiah 53:12, “Therefore I give Him a portion among the great, and He divides the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His being unto death, and He was counted with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”

Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the Commands of יהוה and possessing the Witness of יהושע Messiah."

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against YHWH, and will wear out; mentally attack to cause to fall away, the saints of YHWH, and think to change times and Laws…"

1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."

Mark 10:45, “For even the Son of Aḏam did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”

Deuteronomy 6:4-9, “Hear, O Yisra’yl: יהוה our Strength, יהוה is one! And you shall love יהוה your Strength with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your might. And these Words (Deut 5:22) which I am commanding you today shall be in your heart, and you shall impress them upon your children, and shall speak of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up, and shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.”

Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

Shamah · Jan 27, 2018

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."[/FONT]

MatthewG · Jan 27, 2018

Shamah, All this scripture, you shared. I like how it is color coded, as well, Mark 7:1-9 was a very good share with us as well. Thank you so much Friend in Christ Jesus for sharing these with us.

Does anyone else understand my post here and what it is trying to convey to the audience?

Depleted · Jan 27, 2018

MatthewG said:

Not really.

First of all, you goofed in the first paragraph, saying rock breaks paper. (I suspect it's a goof, considering rock crushes scissors.) And then you short-listed so short, the only one who could figure out what you meant was you.

For instance, how did Joseph Smith get into the picture?

And then from there, you kind of filled the cracks with a bunch of huhs? Like, huh? Chuck Smith? Denominations? Nondenoms becoming denoms? Absolutely no idea what you meant or were writing about.

All in all, it become one wild ride of subjectivism that landed nowhere.

You suffer from the same problem in writing that I suffer from, that forever cycle of "I know what I mean, so how come you didn't get what I mean?"

preacher4truth · Jan 27, 2018

MatthewG said:

Basically your premise is that the Holy Spirit is to lead us (and I agree here with a caveat). It is also assuming that any type of denomination, theological camp or discipline has not been led of the Spirit of God. These are all to be rejected for a more lone ranger type of Christianity accountable to "no one but the Spirit of God."

It all sounds so spiritual, because it is "spiritual" but it is certainly not Biblically sound Christianity. We have to ask what exact "spirituality" is the premise of the OP? Is this really Biblical?

The sad thing is that the above OP's premise (and I think I've lined it out fairly well) is accepted by many yet it is blatantly unbiblical. The "being led of the Spirit only" thing is a mix of mysticism and gnosticism into Christianity.

The irony here is the OP has presented a purely subjective "Christianity" himself, assuming his position to be purely biblical to the demise of any other position. The position presented causes any interpretation of Scripture to be dependent upon his or any others "being led of the Spirit only" conclusions.

Frankly, I've not met one single person who is doctrinally sound who holds to such a position. I say this not in derogation, but in concern and in admonition.

MatthewG · Jan 27, 2018

preacher4truth said:

Depleted thank you for your comment.

Preacher4truth; My point is that there is freedom in Christ Jesus to Love God and to Love Others, by the holy spirit being led by the holy spirit because any person who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ in their heart are given the holy spirit.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The holy spirit that lives in a believer, who seeks and has a direct relationship with God, in and through Christ Jesus, can live their life as they are going to in Loving God and Loving Other people, because no one can judge others because God is the Judge, if we go around judging Christians for not doing what Other Christians or denominations or placing law, you have to do this you have to do that, on a persons life, that strip away the ability of living in the spirit,and freedom from condemnation in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

2 Corinthians 3: 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Just a random verse to share.

Philippians 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.
6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

preacher4truth · Jan 27, 2018

MatthewG said:

Yet brother you've done the above in your OP, judging others and making Christianity purely subjective based upon what you come up with because "God personally told you so, therefore others are not following God."

You've totally missed what I stated. You really need to think it through, your position is on shaky ground. Why? Because it is purely subjective and the authority lies solely on you.

Again, you're doing exactly what you decry in others. Although I agree that there should be no legalism placed upon others, you're over generalizing here and condemning everyone together with a conflated opinion.

But the above is not true. You're simply reiterating your faulty OP that "denoms" and "others" are not led of the Spirit, but in contrast you are, and that those "others" and "denoms" strip away being able to "live in the Spirit."

Sorry, but your broad brush derogation for "others" is untrue.

MatthewG · Jan 27, 2018

People can do what they want as far as their own faith goes, I am just sharing thoughts on the matter of the Law/Word of God/Spirit dear friend.

I am not judging anyone in here, I know there are many people here with different beliefs, and views, and I do not mind that one bit, thank God they have the Lord Jesus Christ in their life, that is the most important thing, is having a relationship with God, and the Lord Jesus Christ. Thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ and all He has done for the entire world.

They love you as you are right now, and care about everything that is going on in your life right now.

@preacher4truth you are entitled to say what you wish to say to me sir, dear friend.

7seasrekeyed · Jan 27, 2018

uh...just no

correction, rebuking and correct judgement strip away the ability of living in the spirit?

please read the New Testament and underline all the passages that deal with error, give instruction and rebuke and correct

as God does give gifts by His Spirit and one of those is 'teacher' it would be foolish to ignore that fact

part of love, is not allowing those in error to continue in the same...as even a perusal of the NT will testify to

having said that, correcting people by calling them names and being rude or mocking, as some do here, is not the way to go either

the sentiment you express is nice, but reality will not allow it

subjective: based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

actually, a subjective outlook is exactly what will happen in the case of no correction or proper judgement (which does not mean judging a person's heart or salvation)

Depleted · Jan 27, 2018

MatthewG said:

You're not judging others?

Then what is your opinion of Joseph Smith, Chuck Smith, Calvinists, Arminianists? Because I caught lots of judgement in all that, even if I didn't get what you were saying. And once you lump in Chuck Smith, Calvinists, and Arminianists, there is no one left, but me-alone-ists.

MatthewG · Jan 27, 2018

7Sea;
as God does give gifts by His Spirit and one of those is 'teacher' it would be foolish to ignore that fact

I would agree with you completely with you, that There are many good teachers out there, teach by the holy spirit.

correction, rebuking and correct judgement strip away the ability of living in the spirit? If it is not out of love, yes.

Depleted.

I'm just try showing differences,
Joseph Smith wanted to Build an empire Religion, here on earth claiming His Church was the only True Church. Which was built on paying tithes, making money, and ordering others they have to do this and that.

Chuck Smith, was a man of the Word of God, where Joseph was kind off a bit, and He opened up a non-denomination which has turned in to a denomination now, called Calvary Chapel a good church, that teaches the Word of God.

I believe a lot differently than most people when it comes to God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and not everyone is the same, and sometimes some people can be really out there that is for sure.

I am not judging these two individuals regardless of how they did things.

All I am trying to show with this post, is how the holy spirit works in a believer who confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is indwelled by the holy spirit, and be have freedom in Christ Jesus to love God, and to Love Other people.

They have access to God in and through the Lord Jesus Christ in prayer, and having a relationship with them, and read the word, and walk by faith, and in the spirit.

The holy spirit that lives in a believer, who seeks and has a direct relationship with God, in and through Christ Jesus, can live their life as they are going to in Loving God and Loving Other people, because no one can judge others because God is the Judge, if we go around judging Christians for not doing what Other Christians or denominations or placing law, you have to do this you have to do that, on a persons life, that strip away the ability of living in the spirit,and freedom from condemnation in Christ Jesus.

Here is what I ment when I post this is the fact that God is the Judge, and not Humans. Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: People can't judge each other (even though they do judge each other) because they have all sinned, and because they have all sinned, we are all guilty together collectively. Also People cant come in between you and your relationship with God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and walking by the holy spirit.

Any Stranger, who tells me, "Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour." Who am I to question the way He lives His life, to the standard I would say He needs to live to make it to heaven?
Am I suppose to Judge Him on everything He does, that is wrong ?

I believe that the bible is subjective, when it comes down to it.

I believe in freedom in the Lord Jesus Christ, who sets us free from sin, that the holy spirit can our change of heart, as we let Him in our life, and we walk by the spirit.

I hope this has cleared a lot of issues or concerns. God bless.

7seasrekeyed · Jan 27, 2018

well, I can understand your response above

but since the NT was written by those who received and practiced the gifts and many here do not believe they are for today, answers will be all over the place

I honestly did not really what you were trying to say in your op...regarding subjectivity

maybe it will become clearer as the thread proceeds...seems you have an idea/concept in mind but I'm not sure how you are expressing it

posthuman · Jan 27, 2018

MatthewG said:

then you don't believe the Bible.. ?

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
(2 Peter 1:20-21)

[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]

sub·jec·tive
səbˈjektiv/
adjective

1.
based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.

ob·jec·tive
əbˈjektiv/
adjective

1.
not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

posthuman · Jan 27, 2018

y'all know the story of the elephant, being felt out by several blind men, all of whom described it differently according to which part of it they were touching? supposed to teach a person, "you don't have complete picture" and "people have different perspectives"

well, no matter how subjective the view of any of the blind men, the pachyderm itself is unchanged. it is objectively, an oliphant, regardless of anyone's mistaken interpretation to the contrary.

MatthewG · Jan 27, 2018

Posthuman, I do believe in the bible, it is the Word of God.

y'all know the story of the elephant, being felt out by several blind men, all of whom described it differently according to which part of it they were touching? supposed to teach a person, "you don't have complete picture" and "people have different perspectives.

I also do not understand what you mean by this sir, but is it fair to say no man is fully able understand God completely?
Well brother postman, I would say that as long as people are understanding that they can have a relationship with God and Jesus Christ, freely, and live by the holy spirit, and read the word of God even study it as well instead of reading if they would like to.

posthuman · Jan 27, 2018

MatthewG said:

is the word of God subjective?

what do you mean by subjective. is there no such thing as objective truth & a right understanding of what is written? everyone can interpret what God says in their own way and that's fine, even when people contradict each other? is that how you mean God's word is 'subjective' - is that how you think He meant it when He said it?

7seasrekeyed · Jan 27, 2018

hmmmmm...didn't read that afar

if that is really what you mean, we part company right there

Locutus · Jan 27, 2018

I don't think you thought this out very well Matt.

posthuman · Jan 27, 2018

Locutus said:

at least, i think there's more thinking to be done

Subjective Christianity

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