Jesus Deity

[pagie]

the non transerable qualities of God were also mentioned of Jesus is that enough or not?

[pagie]

what im trying to covey here is there are reasons why some believe Jesus is a man (witch we believe) and the son of God (witch we believe ) but not God (witch we dont believe) the arguments they make are 1 were did Jesus spacificly say he was God, 2 if Jesus was God in the flesh without sin nature how was he tempted, 3 how can he be on earth and be the father in heaven at once, 4 if jesus was God how did he pray to the father did he pray to himself,
1 there are verses wich Jesus claims things that are non transfeable qualitles of God, not that he came and said I am God but by his words he bight of well have done so though the gospels werent writen by Jesus but by his deciples so the question is who did they say Jesus claimed to be, here are a few. (a) worship is a non-transfeable quality of God ( God alone can be worshiped,)
( Exodus 20:1-4 and God spoke all these words who brought you out of Egypt out of the land of slavery, you shall have no other Gods before me you shall not make yourselves an idol in the form of anything from heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.)
(see also Deut 5:6-8 )
(b) Jesus accepted worship even angels who had men bow to them refuted worship and told them to worship God alone (Rev 22:8-9) but there are acounts when Jesus was worshiped and it was not refuted, to think these men being Jews would write such a thing in there day unless they claimed themselves he was God, (Matt 14:33 then those who were in the boat worshiped him saying truly you are the son of God.)
(john 9:37-38 jesus said "you have now seen him infact he is the one speaking with you" Then the man said "Lord I believe" and he worshiped him)
All the deciples worshiped him (Matt 28:16-17 Then the eleven deciples went to Galilee to the mountin were Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him they worshiped him ;but some doubted)
Jesus claims of himself titles of God witch are non-transferable titles
God says (I AM) (Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses "I AM WHO I AM. this is what you are to say to the Israelites 'I AM has sent me to you)
(Isa 43:10, you are my witnises declares the Lord and my servant whom I have chosen so that you may know and believe me that I am he)
(Isa 43:11, I even I am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior)
Jesus says (I AM) (john 8:58-59 "I tell you the truth' Jesus answered "before Abraham was born I am" at this they picked up stones to stone him but Jesus hid himself sliping away into the grounds) (John 18:4-6, Jesus knowing all that was going to happen to him went out and aked them "who is it you want ?" Jesus of Nazareth they replied " I am he" Jesus replied, and judas the traitor was standing there with them, When Jesus said "I am he" they drew back and fell to the ground.)
God is the giver of life Gen 2:7 Deut32:39 1 Sam 2:6 Jesus is the giver of life John 5:21 John 10:28 John 11:25
God forgiver of Sins Exodus 34:6-7, Neh 9:17 Dan 9:9 Jesus forgiver of Sins Mark 2:1-12 Act:26:18 Col 2:13
God Omnipresent Psa 139:7-8 Prov 15:3 Jesus Omnipresent Matt 18:20 Matt 28:20
God Omniscient 1 Kings 8:39 Jer 17:9-10 Jer 17:16 Jesus Omniscient Matt 11:27 Luke 5:4-6 John 2:25, John 16:30 John 21:17 Act1:24
God Omnipotent Isa 40:10-31, Isa 45:5-13, 18 Jesus Omnipotent Matt 28:18 Mark 1:29-34, John 10:18
God preexistant Gen 1:1 Jesus preexistant John 1:15-30, John 3:13, John 3:31-32 John 6:62 John 16:28 John 17:5
God is eternal Psa 102:26-27 Hab 3:6 Jesus is eternal Isa 9:6, Mic 5:2, John 8:58
God is immutable Num 23:19 Jesus is immutable Heb 13:8

In looking at these non-transferable qualities that can only be used for God himself the logical explanation would be Jesus is God, these qualities give more evidence then the questions asked give (were did Jesus spercificly say he was God, how was Jesus tempted in the wilderness if he was God, if Jesus was God how did he pray to the father was he praying to himself, how is Jesus any diferent from Adam since adams life was given by God breathing the spirit into him) though there are explanations to these questions, and here is my question, why dont the overwelming evidances convince those who dont believe?

Because they have been indoctrinated otherwise.

[pagie]

thank you I think that is a good answer

[jerrywlo]

I have just posted a long thread and seems lost. I will come back

[jerrywlo]

Jesus teaches us that:

1. We must pray to the Father Mt 6:8
2. There is only one true God the Father Joh 17:1-3. Our eternal life hangs on this belief.

The apostles speak in a perfect tune with Jesus
3. There is one God the Father 1Co 8:6
4. All letters begin with such statement: Rom 1:8, 1Co 1:3, 2Co 1:2 and so on.
5. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus 1Ti 2:5

The prophets spoke the same
5. My servant (Jesus) Isa 42:1
6. I the Lord will give you for a covenant Isa 42:6 simplified by me
7. The Lord has laid on him our iniquity Isa 53:6

[jerrywlo]

Worship in Mt 14:33, 28:16-17 comes from proskuneō meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master

[jerrywlo]

When I say "I am a fool", am I equal to God on account of "I am"? Ofcourse not.

I am before Abraham was in Joh 8:58 is of a different nature. Jesus has discource with Jews who esteemed Abraham. In verse 56 Jesus says that Abraham rejoiced to know that Jesus was going to be the means of their salvation as was prophecised by Moses:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

So the saving work of Jesus was revealed to prophets before Abraham was born. Yet they new him not.

[jerrywlo]

Jesus has never made clame that he was God. He said that Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. It was confirmed by Peter among others: Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Jesus says that he provides access to the Father Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Apostle confirms in Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

We should give thanks to the Father Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. See Mt 6:9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

It goes on and on. My question here is this: who are those "indoctrinated otherwise"?

You quote John 14:10 but leave out John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"

That seems to be a declaration of deity to me.

Originally Posted by WhereToGo

You quote John 14:10 but leave out John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"

That seems to be a declaration of deity to me.

Agreed Wheretogo, Jesus was claiming deity with this statement and to get the full brunt of the statement read John 14:7-9. Jesus tells His disciples He is the Father, and they say show us the Father and Jesus reiterates I am the Father do you not know me?

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 10:30I and myFather are one.

Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, BeforeAbraham was, Iam.
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, Godwithus.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mightyGod, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Php 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God

[jerrywlo]

Not at all. Jesus was manifesting Father's glory. Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God... Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell. Jesus never made clame that he was doing anything on his own and he never took credit for anything. As a matter of fact it was not him but the Father working through him:
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Originally Posted by jerrywlo

Not at all. Jesus was manifesting Father's glory. Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God... Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell. Jesus never made clame that he was doing anything on his own and he never took credit for anything. As a matter of fact it was not him but the Father working through him:
Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

That is not what He was saying in John 14:7-9. What He was saying is that He was the Father in the flesh as the Son. Either you believe Jesus or you don't, but do not try and twist His words and say He didn't mean what He said.

If Jesus was not God how could he forgive sins? See Matthew 9.

Originally Posted by onwingsaseagles

That is not what He was saying in John 14:7-9. What He was saying is that He was the Father in the flesh as the Son. Either you believe Jesus or you don't, but do not try and twist His words and say He didn't mean what He said.

Amen Onwingsaseagles AMEN!

[jerrywlo]

"What He was saying is that He was the Father in the flesh as the Son. Either you believe Jesus or you don't, but do not try and twist His words and say He didn't mean what He said".

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Known ginōskō to "know", be aware (of), feel, (have) known (-ledge), perceive, be sure, understand.
Seen horaō to stare at, to discern clearly, by extension to attend to; by Hebraism to experience; perceive, see, take heed.

Judge for yourself if this means what you propose.

[jerrywlo]

Lu5:24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins... The son of man not God had the power{exousia privilege, token of control, delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, right} to forgive sins.

Originally Posted by jerrywlo

"What He was saying is that He was the Father in the flesh as the Son. Either you believe Jesus or you don't, but do not try and twist His words and say He didn't mean what He said".

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Known ginōskō to "know", be aware (of), feel, (have) known (-ledge), perceive, be sure, understand.
Seen horaō to stare at, to discern clearly, by extension to attend to; by Hebraism to experience; perceive, see, take heed.

Judge for yourself if this means what you propose.

Yes it does, He meant exactly what He said.

Amen onwings.. the only people who twist what Christ said are those who have been indoctrinated to do so.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1 (KJV)


14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 (KJV)