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Thread: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

  1. #1
    heartofdavid
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    Default NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!


    Take a fresh look at these verses;

    Rev 7;
    9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
    11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
    13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
    16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

    Now we know from 1 thes 4 that the dead rise FIRST.

    That means these innumerable one HAD TO ARRIVE AFTER THE RAPTURE.
    What a heavy revvie. LOL


  2. #2
    Senior Member Johnny_B's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!


    I am sorry my Brother but that would support post trib rapture, because they came out of the great tribulation. Where a verse like Revelation 3:10 “Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.” Seems to support a pre-trib rapture if you are so inclined to lean towards that view of the rapture.

    I will be honest, I see it happening like that, but I do read other Scripture that leans toward a post-trib. So I am open to the Lord gathering His people to Himslef and Him not letting His people suffer the wrath or hour of trail that will come on the world to effect His body of believers.
    John 6:63, 65 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life....65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

    I do not at all understand the mystery of grace--only that it meets us where we are but does not leave us where it found us. Anne Lamott

    Born in the Spirit & word, granted by the Father. EE-TEOW




  3. #3
    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

    [QUOTE=Johnny_B;3443778] I am sorry my Brother but that would support post trib rapture, because they came out of the great tribulation.[/QUOTE]
    Not necessarily. Most people assume that this verse means "went through and came out of" but it actually means "did not go through but ESCAPED the Great Tribulation". This is the more logical interpretation since had those Christians gone through the Great Tribulation they would have been judged -- come under God's wrath -- just like the unbelieving and the ungodly. But the Bible is quite clear that Christians are NOT appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation.

    Once we understand that (a) the Day of the LORD corresponds to the Great Tribulation and (b) this period of judgments if for those who reject Christ, reject the Gospel, and oppose God, we can be quite certain that that multitude ESCAPED the Great Tribulation.

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    Senior Member Johnny_B's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    Not necessarily. Most people assume that this verse means "went through and came out of" but it actually means "did not go through but ESCAPED the Great Tribulation". This is the more logical interpretation since had those Christians gone through the Great Tribulation they would have been judged -- come under God's wrath -- just like the unbelieving and the ungodly. But the Bible is quite clear that Christians are NOT appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation.

    Once we understand that (a) the Day of the LORD corresponds to the Great Tribulation and (b) this period of judgments if for those who reject Christ, reject the Gospel, and oppose God, we can be quite certain that that multitude ESCAPED the Great Tribulation.

    Here is how verses 13-14 read in the ESV
    “Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?”14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

    How do they come to the conclusion that these saints came out before, the great tribulation, because the "coming out" in verse 14 in the Greek is in the present tense, not the past tense. There are some that believe that since it is in the present tense that it could be all that come out of great tribulation, but the problem is the definite article which makes it, the great tribulation of which there is only one. In chapter 3 it is called the, "hour of trial" that is coming on the whole world, notice it is coming, at this point it has not yet come.

    What is it that they use to make it those that have escaped the great tribulation from verse 14 in chapter 7?


    MarcR and SovereignGrace like this.
    John 6:63, 65 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life....65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

    I do not at all understand the mystery of grace--only that it meets us where we are but does not leave us where it found us. Anne Lamott

    Born in the Spirit & word, granted by the Father. EE-TEOW




  5. #5
    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

    If they came OUT of great tribulation, it can not be before it happens. You do not come out of a tunnel before or in the middle of the tunnel, but after you come out the other side. Those coming out of great tribulation went through it, and then came out of it on the other side.
    "What the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies."

    Thomas Cranmer

    "A time will come when instead of shepherds feeding the sheep, the church will have clowns entertaining the goats."

    Charles Spurgeon

    “The chief danger that confronts the coming century will be religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God, heaven without hell.”

    William Booth

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_B View Post
    How do they come to the conclusion that these saints came out before, the great tribulation, because the "coming out" in verse 14 in the Greek is in the present tense, not the past tense.
    Since the Great Tribulation corresponds to Rev 14-18, Rev 7 is providing a preview, so it does not really matter whether we read it as "came out of " or "coming out of". The issue is whether this great multitude (which I believe is the Church) was subjected to the Great Tribulation. And actually Rev 3:10 would support the view that the Church was NOT subjected to the Great Tribulation (literally the Tribulation, the Great). It is significant that the words "church" or "churches" are not found in Rev 14-18.

  7. #7
    heartofdavid
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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_B View Post

    I am sorry my Brother but that would support post trib rapture, because they came out of the great tribulation. Where a verse like Revelation 3:10 “Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.” Seems to support a pre-trib rapture if you are so inclined to lean towards that view of the rapture.

    I will be honest, I see it happening like that, but I do read other Scripture that leans toward a post-trib. So I am open to the Lord gathering His people to Himslef and Him not letting His people suffer the wrath or hour of trail that will come on the world to effect His body of believers.
    Impossible if the trib is on going and they ,the saints are there.

    How do the dead rise FIRST if the saints are in heaven FIRST.
    You are saying 1 thes 4 is not true.

  8. #8
    heartofdavid
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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    If they came OUT of great tribulation, it can not be before it happens. You do not come out of a tunnel before or in the middle of the tunnel, but after you come out the other side. Those coming out of great tribulation went through it, and then came out of it on the other side.
    It says that while they are in heaven the vial judgements begin.
    So,they are there DURING the judgements.

    Which is making you argue that 1 thes 4 is not true. You are saying the dead DIDN'T rise first.

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by heartofdavid View Post
    It says that while they are in heaven the vial judgements begin.
    So,they are there DURING the judgements.

    Which is making you argue that 1 thes 4 is not true. You are saying the dead DIDN'T rise first.
    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is at the end of the age and not a pre-trib rapture. There is no timing mentioned in that passage, none. Pre, mid, post, amil, all use that passage. But there is no timing mentioned in that.

    Just like Revelation 4:1. It says John was called up, and the pre-tribs use that to support a pre-trib rapture. John, and only John, not the ekklesia, was called up.
    Lucy-Pevensie likes this.
    "What the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies."

    Thomas Cranmer

    "A time will come when instead of shepherds feeding the sheep, the church will have clowns entertaining the goats."

    Charles Spurgeon

    “The chief danger that confronts the coming century will be religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God, heaven without hell.”

    William Booth

  10. #10
    heartofdavid
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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is at the end of the age and not a pre-trib rapture. There is no timing mentioned in that passage, none. Pre, mid, post, amil, all use that passage. But there is no timing mentioned in that.

    Just like Revelation 4:1. It says John was called up, and the pre-tribs use that to support a pre-trib rapture. John, and only John, not the ekklesia, was called up.
    It says the dead IN CHRIST rise first. That is the key. Those from over a thousand years ago.

    It makes a powerful statement. It is saying that ONLY SAINTS FROM THE GT ARE IN THE REV 7 GROUP.

    That means the general resurrection of 1 thes 4 ,dead in Christ will have had to have been first. (pretrib rapture)

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by heartofdavid View Post
    It says the dead IN CHRIST rise first. That is the key. Those from over a thousand years ago.

    It makes a powerful statement. It is saying that ONLY SAINTS FROM THE GT ARE IN THE REV 7 GROUP.

    That means the general resurrection of 1 thes 4 ,dead in Christ will have had to have been first. (pretrib rapture)
    I agree that THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST. So????
    "What the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies."

    Thomas Cranmer

    "A time will come when instead of shepherds feeding the sheep, the church will have clowns entertaining the goats."

    Charles Spurgeon

    “The chief danger that confronts the coming century will be religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God, heaven without hell.”

    William Booth

  12. #12
    heartofdavid
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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

    This is a game changer.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Ahwatukee's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is at the end of the age and not a pre-trib rapture


    The above event cannot take place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, because it would put the church through the entire wrath of God, which must take place first.

    Just like Revelation 4:1. It says John was called up, and the pre-tribs use that to support a pre-trib rapture. John, and only John, not the ekklesia, was called up.


    Though John is the one being called up, it is also a prophetic allusion to the church being caught up in relation to God's wrath, which begins with the opening of the 1st seal. In support of this, in Chapters 1 thru 3 the word church is used 18 times, then after the end of chapter 3 the word church never appears again. The next time we see the church is in heaven as the bride where she will be receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb (Rev.19:6-8). The next time we see that actual word ekklesia/church again is not until Rev.22:16 which is outside the narrative. It's disappearance after the end of chapter 3 is very significant.
    Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

  14. #14
    heartofdavid
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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    I agree that THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST. So????
    That means if that general resurrection of the dead in Christ of 1 thes 4 is true,which it is,then you have to place it AFTER those of rev 7.

    Doesn't fit.

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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by heartofdavid View Post

    Take a fresh look at these verses;

    Rev 7;
    9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
    11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
    12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
    13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
    15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
    16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

    Now we know from 1 thes 4 that the dead rise FIRST.

    That means these innumerable one HAD TO ARRIVE AFTER THE RAPTURE.
    What a heavy revvie. LOL

    The Very verses you use destroy the pre-tribulation rapture belief..

    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    If they came out of the great tribulation then they where once in the great tribulation And if they where in the great tribulation then they where not raptured out of the world before the great tribulation started..

    Therefore No pre - Tribulation rapture....
    Deade likes this.

  16. #16
    heartofdavid
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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_B View Post

    Here is how verses 13-14 read in the ESV
    “Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?”14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

    How do they come to the conclusion that these saints came out before, the great tribulation, because the "coming out" in verse 14 in the Greek is in the present tense, not the past tense. There are some that believe that since it is in the present tense that it could be all that come out of great tribulation, but the problem is the definite article which makes it, the great tribulation of which there is only one. In chapter 3 it is called the, "hour of trial" that is coming on the whole world, notice it is coming, at this point it has not yet come.

    What is it that they use to make it those that have escaped the great tribulation from verse 14 in chapter 7?


    They didn't. They missed the rapture.
    Mat 25,the 10 virgins. Half were not taken. Not worthy.
    Remember Jesus prayed ".....but pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the world...."

  17. #17
    heartofdavid
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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Adstar View Post
    The Very verses you use destroy the pre-tribulation rapture belief..

    14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    If they came out of the great tribulation then they where once in the great tribulation And if they where in the great tribulation then they where not raptured out of the world before the great tribulation started..

    Therefore No pre - Tribulation rapture....
    They missed the rapture.
    Mat 25,the 10 virgins. Half were not taken. Not worthy.
    Remember Jesus prayed ".....but pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things about to come upon the world...."

  18. #18
    heartofdavid
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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    I agree that THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST. So????
    Then how are they going to be first AFTER we see saints there DURING THE GT.?

  19. #19
    Senior Member iamsoandso's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

    Revelation 6:11 when did they get there?

  20. #20
    Senior Member Ahwatukee's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEW PRETRIB RAPTURE EVIDENCE!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by iamsoandso View Post
    Revelation 6:11 when did they get there?
    Hello iamsoandso,

    For a possible answer, please see my blog on the link below:

    http://christianchat.com/blogs/ahwat...l-martyrs.html
    Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

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