Scriptural support for Free Will
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This is the basis of the modern mission movement!
Because, from a Scriptural point of view, people do need to hear the gospel! And if they don't have it, they are not saved. So, it is incumbent upon us to be missionaries, wherever we are. Sadly, despite the fact it seems like the gospel is everywhere in the western world, too many have not heard it.
So, be a witness to your neighbours, co-workers, family and friends. Too many Christians spend all their time with other Christians and their energy and money on Christian "things," instead of the Kingdom of God! We are instructed to make disciples, which means preaching the gospel.
"Then Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” Matt 28:18-20
(Speaking to myself here, too!)
Yep. Believe it or not there are many who believe people only go to hell for rejecting Christ. So I ask, where are the lost going who have never heard the Gospel yet? They say they are safe and will go to heaven. So I say, well then, why are we sending missionaries to them or preaching to them at all if they are already heaven bound? They still believe they are going to heaven.
Hmmm, never knew all the lost were on their way to heaven already, and that preaching the Gospel to them will send them to hell. Sounds like we should just leave them alone and they'll end up in heaven.
Hmmm, never knew all the lost were on their way to heaven already, and that preaching the Gospel to them will send them to hell. Sounds like we should just leave them alone and they'll end up in heaven.
We are all "destined" for hell, since we are all sinners!
But God has chosen or elected/predestined those who will be saved from the fire. That is quite different than everyone being neutral (??) and God sending some to hell, and some to heaven. That really makes no sense at all. Unless you want to believe everyone is destined for heaven, and God picks out some, and sends them to hell, the rest are saved, which is completely unbiblical, and a modified form of universalism.
We are simply not neutral! Sinners, having inherited the sinful nature of Adam, and sinners who commit sins! Christ paid for the sins of those he saved.
So, how do people start in your world, Metternich? Are they sinners, neutral or saved to start? If they are neutral or saved, and God is sending some of them to hell, what Scriptures are you using to support this? Oh wait, you probably think some sinners are saving themselves by believing, and some sinners go to hell, because they don't believe. But people don't have the power to save themselves, nor send themselves to hell, by not believing! Instead, God chooses those he saves. Because God is sovereign!
I used to think Calvinism was double predestination. Then, I read a good book by RC Sproule, and he said that is hyper Calvinism and not Biblical. I've always agreed with single predestination, in that God takes lost sinners, predestines them to be saved. And the rest, stay as they were - sinners. And sinners go to hell!
I hope that makes sense!
But God has chosen or elected/predestined those who will be saved from the fire. That is quite different than everyone being neutral (??) and God sending some to hell, and some to heaven. That really makes no sense at all. Unless you want to believe everyone is destined for heaven, and God picks out some, and sends them to hell, the rest are saved, which is completely unbiblical, and a modified form of universalism.
We are simply not neutral! Sinners, having inherited the sinful nature of Adam, and sinners who commit sins! Christ paid for the sins of those he saved.
So, how do people start in your world, Metternich? Are they sinners, neutral or saved to start? If they are neutral or saved, and God is sending some of them to hell, what Scriptures are you using to support this? Oh wait, you probably think some sinners are saving themselves by believing, and some sinners go to hell, because they don't believe. But people don't have the power to save themselves, nor send themselves to hell, by not believing! Instead, God chooses those he saves. Because God is sovereign!
I used to think Calvinism was double predestination. Then, I read a good book by RC Sproule, and he said that is hyper Calvinism and not Biblical. I've always agreed with single predestination, in that God takes lost sinners, predestines them to be saved. And the rest, stay as they were - sinners. And sinners go to hell!
I hope that makes sense!
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”[Romans 1:16,17]
It is only in the gospel God’s righteousness is reveal, and is revealed by faith, and faith comes via the word of God,[Romans 10:17]not mystical means.
Call it predestination, self-will, selfishness, arminianism, free choice, half-free choice, or global warming -- I don't care what you call it . . .
But this I know: right now today I am able as a person created in the image of God to serve and believe in Him, or I am able to not believe in Him and disobey Him
But this I know: right now today I am able as a person created in the image of God to serve and believe in Him, or I am able to not believe in Him and disobey Him
its a good thing we do have free will, it would be strange to " serve" a God who gave no choice to His people. or to Love a God that created and willed some people to hell, and some people to Heaven arbitrarily. because they had no choice in the matter. seems like it would be unjust if the evil people were carrying out Gods will, to puniush them for thier sins. without freewill the Bible doesnt makes sense. justice doesnt make sense, forgiveness doesnt make sense.
I understand how i can exercise my will towards alternately obeying or disobeying, by exertion with the purpose to take or avoid some action or another.
But i do not understand how i can by force of my own will cause myself to believe what i do not regard as true, or conversely to disbelieve something i am convinced of. It seems to me to require a force outside of and apart from myself to change such things that make up my own heart.
But i do not understand how i can by force of my own will cause myself to believe what i do not regard as true, or conversely to disbelieve something i am convinced of. It seems to me to require a force outside of and apart from myself to change such things that make up my own heart.
We do not have a free will. Matthew 6:23, Romans 6:6 & 6:16 easily dismantles that myth.
Ppl choose every day. But choosing God in the fallen state is not something they will do. John 3:17-21 and Romans 8:5-9 again, easily dismantles that myth.
You're off the road with this statement. God never willed anyone to hell. Fallen man does not love God. Those who love God have been born(already happened event) of Him. He gives them the new birth, this new birth causes them to love Him and they are saved. Those who love God have been born of Him.[1 John 4:7]
Well, we were chosen in Christ from before the creation of the world.[Ephesians 1:4] So, you are clearly rejecting clearly revealed truth contained in the bible.
Again, ppl choose things every day, But choosing to serve God in their fallen state ain't one of them. Look at all of Israel's enemies in the OT. God said He chose Israel over all other nations, not because they were great in #, nut because He loved them. Their enemies never wanted to serve God, but their gods such as molech, remphan, dagon &c. And God was not pleased with their idolatry, even though He left them in their fallen state. That's what Romans 1 speaks to. They suppressed the truth in unrighteousness. Romans 1 is not an appeal to ppl knowing God and finding favor in His sight, but rather, they were not serving Him, but other gods.
And who are you to reply against God?
Free will is a myth. Do you think Hitler used his free will when he killed millions of Jews? How about Vlad Dracula/Impaler? Did he exercise his free will when he ate while watching ppl being tortured? How about Saddam Hussein? Was he exercising his free will when he lured his B-I-L back and had him executed? Ppl have a will bound by sin and Satan when they're in their fallen state, and is not free by any stretch of the imagination.
Oh trust me, justice is the last thing any of us wants. We don't want that, trust me.
Ppl choose every day. But choosing God in the fallen state is not something they will do. John 3:17-21 and Romans 8:5-9 again, easily dismantles that myth.
You're off the road with this statement. God never willed anyone to hell. Fallen man does not love God. Those who love God have been born(already happened event) of Him. He gives them the new birth, this new birth causes them to love Him and they are saved. Those who love God have been born of Him.[1 John 4:7]
Well, we were chosen in Christ from before the creation of the world.[Ephesians 1:4] So, you are clearly rejecting clearly revealed truth contained in the bible.
Again, ppl choose things every day, But choosing to serve God in their fallen state ain't one of them. Look at all of Israel's enemies in the OT. God said He chose Israel over all other nations, not because they were great in #, nut because He loved them. Their enemies never wanted to serve God, but their gods such as molech, remphan, dagon &c. And God was not pleased with their idolatry, even though He left them in their fallen state. That's what Romans 1 speaks to. They suppressed the truth in unrighteousness. Romans 1 is not an appeal to ppl knowing God and finding favor in His sight, but rather, they were not serving Him, but other gods.
And who are you to reply against God?
Free will is a myth. Do you think Hitler used his free will when he killed millions of Jews? How about Vlad Dracula/Impaler? Did he exercise his free will when he ate while watching ppl being tortured? How about Saddam Hussein? Was he exercising his free will when he lured his B-I-L back and had him executed? Ppl have a will bound by sin and Satan when they're in their fallen state, and is not free by any stretch of the imagination.
Oh trust me, justice is the last thing any of us wants. We don't want that, trust me.
Correct. And the Bible already tells us how this happens. But Calvinists simply do not want to believe what the Bible says because they have already been brainwashed into believing something else. So here are the "forces" outside yourself that bring you to saving faith:
1. THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL
Calvinists truly do not believe in the power of the Gospel, because they have been wrongly taught that saving faith is a "gift" from God and reserved only for the elect. But the apostles taught that the Gospel itself -- the Word of God -- is both the power of God unto salvation, and the seed of the New Birth.
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:17)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. (1 Pet 1:23-25).
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)
2. THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter [The Holy Spirit] will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. (John 16:7-11)
1. THE POWER OF THE GOSPEL
Calvinists truly do not believe in the power of the Gospel, because they have been wrongly taught that saving faith is a "gift" from God and reserved only for the elect. But the apostles taught that the Gospel itself -- the Word of God -- is both the power of God unto salvation, and the seed of the New Birth.
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:17)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16)
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. (1 Pet 1:23-25).
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. (James 1:18)
2. THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter [The Holy Spirit] will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. (John 16:7-11)
Faith comes from hearing the gospel, I.E. an outside source. Man does not possess faith. 2 Thessalonians 3:2 avers that. If someone has faith, they're saved. Abraham believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness.[Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:6 & James 2:23] Faith IS a gift of God.
If by that you mean that indirectly faith is a gift of God, since the Gospel is the gift of God to the unbelieving world, then fine. But if God pre-selects some to receive saving faith, and ignores others even when they hear the Gospel, that is contrary to the Gospel and the Word of God.
The purpose of the Gospel is to generate saving faith -- as shown in Scripture -- and the Gospel is never isolated from the Holy Spirit. So the Holy Spirit and the Word of God are used to generate saving faith in "whosoever" hears the Gospel (Rom 10:8-21).
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
The purpose of the Gospel is to generate saving faith -- as shown in Scripture -- and the Gospel is never isolated from the Holy Spirit. So the Holy Spirit and the Word of God are used to generate saving faith in "whosoever" hears the Gospel (Rom 10:8-21).
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
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being born of the Word isn't of my own will. it comes by hearing, in through my ear, and it is active, living, quick and powerful - able to prick the heart.
i hear and believe. the same Word goes into another person's ear and they do not believe. the power belongs to the Word - doesn't it? and the One who made the hearing ear. the One who says "be deaf!" and the ear is deaf, and who says "hear!" - power belongs to Him.
i do not see how i can choose to believe the sky is blue or that the moon rises. if someone says to me the sky is pink and green plaid, and there is no moon, i don't stop & make a choice whether to believe them. i just don't believe them. when i see that it is night, i believe it's night. i don't make a choice about whether to believe it's day. when i heard that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, i believed it. neither can i 'choose not to believe' now; He is to me, a fact.
if this took an outside force to accomplish in me, then it was done not of myself, even contrary to my nature, by an outside Agent: by hearing the Word. the Word that said 'let there be light' and there was light. the Word functionally makes choices in me that i was unable myself to make, creating, quickening, opening.
'Calvinists' quote all the same verses you quoted. it's a matter of attributing cause and attributing effect.
i hear and believe. the same Word goes into another person's ear and they do not believe. the power belongs to the Word - doesn't it? and the One who made the hearing ear. the One who says "be deaf!" and the ear is deaf, and who says "hear!" - power belongs to Him.
i do not see how i can choose to believe the sky is blue or that the moon rises. if someone says to me the sky is pink and green plaid, and there is no moon, i don't stop & make a choice whether to believe them. i just don't believe them. when i see that it is night, i believe it's night. i don't make a choice about whether to believe it's day. when i heard that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, i believed it. neither can i 'choose not to believe' now; He is to me, a fact.
if this took an outside force to accomplish in me, then it was done not of myself, even contrary to my nature, by an outside Agent: by hearing the Word. the Word that said 'let there be light' and there was light. the Word functionally makes choices in me that i was unable myself to make, creating, quickening, opening.
'Calvinists' quote all the same verses you quoted. it's a matter of attributing cause and attributing effect.
on topic of OP though,
when the LORD commanded the man that he must not eat of the tree in the midst of the garden, at least a limited free agency is implicit. by assumption man is capable of heeding or disregarding the command, so the command itself shows that the man is able also to purpose which to do.
in fact,
before the command "you shall not eat" there is the blessing, "thou mayest freely eat" -- how does one "freely eat" ?
exercising free will to eat as it pleases one. a free will is implicit right away here in Genesis.
before this, though, man was made - not by man's will. and man was made outside of the garden - not by man's will. and man was placed into the garden - not by man's will. man was removed from the garden, prevented from eating of the tree of life, and afflicted with toil - not by man's will.
when the LORD commanded the man that he must not eat of the tree in the midst of the garden, at least a limited free agency is implicit. by assumption man is capable of heeding or disregarding the command, so the command itself shows that the man is able also to purpose which to do.
in fact,
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,
Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat
(Genesis 2:16)
Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat
(Genesis 2:16)
before the command "you shall not eat" there is the blessing, "thou mayest freely eat" -- how does one "freely eat" ?
exercising free will to eat as it pleases one. a free will is implicit right away here in Genesis.
before this, though, man was made - not by man's will. and man was made outside of the garden - not by man's will. and man was placed into the garden - not by man's will. man was removed from the garden, prevented from eating of the tree of life, and afflicted with toil - not by man's will.