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Thread: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

  1. #181
    Senior Member Angela53510's Avatar
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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by BibleGuy View Post
    Hello Angela,

    Let's put aside the silly "Bible addresses are not Bible" objection.

    If you disagree with my interpretation, then tell me why.

    If you think your Bible verse contradicts my position, then tell me why.

    Merely complaining that "Bible addresses are not Bible" fails to address the substance of my position.

    Moreover, my usage of Bible addresses shows how I interpret the cited passages.

    Your mere quotation of a verse does NOT show how you interpret the quoted passage.

    We are discussing INTERPRETATION here, not methods of citation.

    And you've shown nothing wrong with my method of citation.

    And, am I "Hebrew Roots" or "Dispensationalist" ? Answer: I'm a Bible Guy. Hebrew Roots has some problems in its camp. Dispensationalists have problems too.

    Thanks....

    First, I ALWAYS comment on what the verses say. But I have the politeness to post the actual verse, so anyone reading can compare immediately if my "interpretation" is true, or out to lunch. Second, sometimes the Bible says it SO CLEARLY, like in the case of the Old Covenant being obsolete, extinct, gone, there is no reason to comment. Interpreting, for me is a BAD word. Because, it is all about me. My opinions! Now, exegeting, looking into the words, in Greek or Hebrew, but also using good hermeneutical practices, which you are clueless about, is a better way to discuss the Bible.

    You are practicing eisigesis. That means, you start with an idea "The Torah sacrifices are returning to the 4th Temple, when it is built" and then grabbing a bunch of disassociated verses to prove your point. It comes from Greek - eis, meaning "into" as in "reading into."

    Proper hermeneutics uses exegesis. That means, you go to the Bible first, and see what comes out of the text, using the whole bible as your background. Ex comes from exo, meaning "out." Thus, you take OUT of the verses what they say, instead of reading into it your opinion and interpretation.

    Got it? You are practicing bad hermeneutics, which only makes sense since you have drawn such totally wrong conclusion.


    But I want to address your posting reams of Bible addresses, versus posting the actual verses WITH their addresses.

    Here are some excellent verses which PROVE that animal sacrifices are not necessary!
    Gen. 12:10, 34:3; Exodus 14:9, 14; Lev. 20:2, 22:5, 19, 24; Numbers 4:25, Deut. 6:6, 30:18, Joshua 9:12; 1 Sam. 15:22; 1 Kings 22:8; 2 Kings 3:34; Job 2:10: Psalm 4:10, 15:7, 22:6, 39:13, 149:5, Isa. 53:5d: Jeremiah 48:15; Ezekiel 32:8.

    See! I proved you were wrong!


    So, are you now going to read each and everyone of those verses? I could have added more, just to overwhelm you with verses. In fact, to my knowledge, only one of those verses apply to animal sacrifices. Although I suppose random chance might have hit on another. I made up the addresses, hoping no one will take the time to check them out. By actually posting the verses, as I do below, it saves you and the other readers the time of having to look each address up to see if it means anything, or not. And how out of context or not it is.

    So, do you want to guess which one in that long list of addresses is correct? Look them all up? Or, I could just do what forum etiquette says, and copy and paste, or even type out the actual verses we are discussing.

    "Then Samuel said,“Does the Lord take pleasure in burnt offerings and sacrifices
    as much as he does in obedience?
    Certainly, obedience is better than sacrifice;
    paying attention is better than the fat of rams." 1 Sam. 15:22


    Now this verse really summarizes the importance of sacrifices in the OT. And Saul was deposed as king, and his line wiped out, because he did not obey God. Now, surely if sacrifices were required, God would have set aside the rule about only the priest sacrificing. Instead, he pointed out the important principle that God looks at our heart, and the sacrifice is not only irrelevant, but soon to be replaced by Jesus (Ok, maybe in 1000 years - call it foreshadowing)


    "After He says above, You did not want or delight in sacrifices and offerings, whole burnt offerings and sin offerings (which are offered according to the law), 9 He then says, See, I have come to do Your will. He takes away the first to establish the second. 10 By this will of God, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all.11 Every priest stands day after day ministering and offering the same sacrifices time after time, which can never take away sins. 12But this man, after offering one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God. 13 He is now waiting until His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are sanctified. 15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. For after He says:
    16 This is the covenant I will make with them
    after those days, says the Lord:
    I will put My laws on their hearts
    and write them on their minds,


    17 He adds:
    I will never again remember
    their sins and their lawless acts.


    18 Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer an offering for sin." Hebrews 10:8-18
    Over and over, the writer of Hebrews says NO LONGER AN OFFERING FOR SIN, and "AFTER OFFERING ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOREVER," and "HE TAKES AWAY THE FIRST, TO ESTABLISH THE SECOND (Covenant).

    The Torah, the ritual ceremonies the sacrifice is over! Jesus took their place! They were only meant to foreshadow Jesus. In connection with this, back to Hebrews 8:13


    "In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8:13 ESV

    "By saying, a new covenant, He has declared that the first is old. And what is old and aging is about to disappear." Hebrews 8:13 HCSB

    "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8:13 KJV

    "When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear." Hebrews 8:13 NET

    "By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:13 NIV


    It doesn't matter which translation you look at - the Old Covenant is obsolete, and vanishing: old and age, about to disappear, GONE, GONE, GONE!

    You are re-crucifying Jesus, and/or discounting what he did on the cross, to say that we will ever need land based animal sacrifices. The promises in the OT were revoked because they were conditional on the obedience of Israel. The NT is clear, we are all one body.

    "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt." Hebrews 6:4-6

    This combination "worst of dispensationalism/Hebrew Roots" is so far from the Biblical picture, of Jesus!!

    "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,
    because he will save his people from their sins.” Matt 1:21


    The whole purpose of animal sacrifice was to pay for sins! Now we have Jesus who paid it all!


    "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace," Eph. 1:7

    "Knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot." 1 Peter 1:18-19

    "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24

    "Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works." Titus 2:14

    "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree" Gal. 3:13

    "Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time." 1Tim. 2:6

    "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." 1 John 2:2

    "Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God." Romans 5:9

    "Who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father," Gal. 1:4

    "He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption." Hebrews 9:12


    I'll close with a long excerpt from Hebrews 9, which details the purpose of the sacrifice, and the change

    "So with these things prepared like this, the priests enter continually into the outer tent as they perform their duties. 7 But only the high priest enters once a year into the inner tent, and not without blood that he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit is making clear that the way into the holy place had not yet appeared as long as the old tabernacle was standing. 9 This was a symbol for the time then present, when gifts and sacrifices were offered that could not perfect the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They served only for matters of food and drink and various washings; they are external regulations imposed until the new order came.
    But now Christ has come as the high priest of the good things to come. He passed through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, 12and he entered once for all into the most holy place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he himself secured eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled consecrated them and provided ritual purity, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.
    15 And so he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the eternal inheritance he has promised, since he died to set them free from the violations committed under the first covenant. 16 For where there is a will, the death of the one who made it must be proven. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it carries no force while the one who made it is alive. 18 So even the first covenant was inaugurated with blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every command to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats with water and scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 and said, “This is the blood of the covenant that God has commanded you to keep."


    And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. 22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
    23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." Hebrews 9:6-28

    This passage clearly lays out the purpose of the Old Covenant, and that Christ is a better offering, a better covenant, a better sacrifice! Because, as Hebrews 8:13 points out, when Christ did this, he made the Old Covenant OBSOLETE! It vanished! Replaced by a better covenant.

    So, I hope you see why I am not going to look up every address you post. If you really cared, you would post them yourself, instead of coming on here with rapid machine gun fire of addresses, that most of us will not bother to look at. If you have any point at all, then I want to read the verse, and in context.

    Of course, you do NOT have a point. No Torah, no animals sacrifices needed. Jesus died once for all! "It is finished!"
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  2. #182
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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by BibleGuy View Post
    Hello friends,

    It appears we have a dozen Scripturally-grounded reasons which jointly confirm that animal sacrifices will (in the future) be resumed in conjunction with the full restoration of Priestly/Levitical duties. And, we will participate in these activities as fellow Israelite participants in the covenants between God and Israel. Most of us Christians are unaware of our future destiny in Israel; I hope this thread begins (in at least some small way) the process of correcting this unfortunate circumstance.

    1. A. Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled.
    B. Dt. 30:1-8 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience.
    C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience will occur in the future.

    2. A. Eze. 40-47 is not yet fulfilled.
    B. Eze. 40-47 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial activity.
    C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial activity will occur in the future.

    3. A. Jer. 33:20-22 is not yet fulfilled.
    B. Jer. 33:20-22 guarantees the restoration of priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience.
    C. Priestly/Levitical/sacrificial Torah-obedience will occur in the future.

    4. A. Zec. 14 guarantees future GLOBAL participation in the sacrifice-laden feast of Sukkot (with punishment upon the nations who do not participate).
    B. Therefore, global participation in sacrifice-laden feasts will occur in the future, and it will be required, and it will be good to obey, and it will be bad to disobey.

    5. A. Mal. 3:1-4 guarantees that the Messiah will RESTORE the covenant with Levi, complete with sacrifices to be offered again in the future.
    B. We should not oppose what the Messiah will come to restore in the forthcoming kingdom rule.

    6. A. Is. 66 guarantees future restoration of Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activities associated with new moon and Sabbath observance.
    B. We should not oppose what Isaiah guarantees will occur in the future.

    7.A. The Old Covenant is READY (Gr. "engoos", Heb. 8:13) to disappear.
    B. That which is ready to disappear has NOT yet disappeared (from the meaning of "engoos").
    C. The Old Covenant was still in force (as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of Hebrews) (from B).
    D. The inauguration of the New Covenant does NOT entail termination of the Old Covenant (from C).
    E. Old Covenant Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activities are good and proper to persist into the New Covenant era (from D).

    8. A. Many New-Covenant-era priests were disciples of the Messiah (Ac. 6:7).
    B. Priests perform sacrificial/priestly/Levitical duties.
    C. Priestly sacrificial/Levitical duties are acceptable in the New-Covenant-era (from A and B).

    9. A. Thousands of first-century disciples were zealous for Torah (Ac. 21:20).
    B. Torah-obedience requires sacrificial/priestly/Levitical duties (when performed properly).
    C. Thousands of first-century disciples were zealous for Torah-obedient sacrificial/priestly/Levitical activity.
    D. These disciples encouraged Paul (and Paul agreed!) to condone a vow (evidently the sacrifice-laden Nazirite vow) for the purpose of publicly affirming that Paul likewise walked orderly according to the Torah.
    E. Sacrifices are, thus, affirmed as a valid ongoing New-Covenant-era practice.


    10. A. Sabbath Torah is (present tense!) a shadow of the substance in Christ (Col. 2:16-17).
    B. Col. 2 was written after the inauguration of the New-Covenant era.
    C. Col. 2 is, thus, evidence that Sabbath Torah (which, of course, includes associated sacrificial activity when properly performed) is an ONGOING FUNCTIONING SHADOW which CONTINUES to point to the substance in Christ.

    11. A. Christians are included as fellow Israelites who partake in the Torah-laden covenants between YHVH and Israel (Eph. 2).
    B. The covenants (Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, and New) are all still in force, and we Christians partake in these covenants (plural! Eph. 2:12).
    C. The covenants entail Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activity when properly performed.
    D. Thus, we Christians should condone the proper restoration and participation in the Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activities associated with the Torah-laden covenants in which we participate.

    12. A. Israelites will again participate in Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activity when they return from ALL the countries to which they have been scattered (Eze. 20:30-44).
    B. This return has not yet occurred.
    C. Animal sacrifices will occur in the future (from A and B).
    D. We Christians are included as fellow Israelite participants in the covenants between YHVH and Israel (e.g., Jer. 31).
    E. Thus, we are Israelites who will participate in the restoration of animal sacrifices in the future.



    CONCLUSION: We appear to have a dozen (I could list many more!) Scripturally-grounded lines of reasoning which jointly confirm that Levitical/priestly/sacrificial activity is good and proper and forthcoming.

    Yes, sin offerings point to the Lamb of God (Jesus) who is the ultimate sin-offering on our behalf. But this is no excuse to terminate the ONGOING SHADOW FUNCTION authorized by Scripture, affirmed by Scripture, and guaranteed (in Scripture) to properly occur in the future, just as it also properly occurred even AFTER the inauguration of the New Covenant in the first century.

    Then again, maybe I'm wrong on all 12 arguments. I'm open to correction from any better-justified viewpoint.

    If you agree with my 12 arguments, please let me know, because that would be encouraging to me.

    If you disagree, please help me understand:
    1. Which specific premise(s) in my 12 arguments do you reject (and why)?
    2. Which Scriptural passage do you believe disconfirms my position (and why)?

    Let's study and learn together, growing in love and grace and knowledge in our Lord Jesus Christ.

    blessings to you all...






    2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth
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    Pro 18: 17 He who states his case first seems right, until his rival comes and cross-examines him.

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    Senior Member tanakh's Avatar
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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by PlainWord View Post
    Thank you my brother!! Why do Canadians seem to understand better than most Americans, LOL? Did the infection, known as Darbyism, not survive the cold up there?
    LOL Its either the cold or a secret Vaccine that does it!

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Hello everyone!

    I'm still back at post 75 or 80, and there are already 180 posts in this thread!

    Ok...I'll try to get through them all...stay tuned!

    thanks....

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Is the Lord really concerned with animal sacrifices during the end times, so that He refers to the daily sacrifice being taken away in Daniel 8:11-12 & 9:27?
    Anyone who believes this is still in kindergarten spiritually.
    Look at Isaiah 28:18-20 to see what the daily sacrifice is.

    Daniel 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

    9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
    19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
    20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela53510 View Post
    You just don't read or listen, do you? The Old Covenant is obsolete. The Abrahamic Covenant finished when Abrahams descendants worshiped other gods, and did not obey the instructions of Deuteronomy. Christ being born, fulfills:

    "Then I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you,
    and I will make your name great,
    so that you will exemplify divine blessing." Gen. 12:2 NET


    Christ is the blessing spoken of here. The entire Old Covenant is obsolete. Which part do you not get?

    "Now before faith came we were held in custody under the law, being kept as prisoners until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. 26 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise." Gal. 3:23-29

    Faith has come, the law is fulfilled, we are no longer under law, or the Old Covenant. Stop posting addresses, and verses out of context!

    Hello, Angela,

    You wrote: " The Old Covenant is obsolete."

    My response: And it is NOT yet passed away...but merely READY (Gr. "engoos", Heb. 8:13) to pass away. Thus, the Torah of the Old Covenant is not yet terminated.

    You wrote: "The Abrahamic Covenant finished when Abrahams descendants worshiped other gods, and did not obey the instructions of Deuteronomy."

    My response: ALL Christians inherit the land (Gal. 3:29) by faith in a promise, just like Abraham (Gal. 3:18).

    This is good news! The gospel (Gal. 3:8) includes inheritance in the land promised to Abraham (Ge. 12:1-3).

    Therefore, Paul here affirms that the Abrahamic Covenant (which includes the LAND PROMISE) is most assuredly NOT "finished".

    Moreover, Moses PROPHESIED that the Israelites would "not obey the instructions" of Deuteronomy (see Dt. 29:24-28).

    But Moses' prophecy continues! Moses said that the Israelites would return from being scattered across the earth, and they would again obey 100% of Torah (Dt. 30:1-8). This has NOT yet occurred.

    Therefore, Dt. 30:1-8 (complete with animal sacrifices) will occur in the FUTURE (or else Moses was a false prophet).

    But, Moses was NOT a false prophet.

    Thus, Dt. 30:1-8 (complete with animal sacrifices) is yet future.

    You wrote: "Christ being born, fulfills...Ge. 12:2".

    My response: No. The blessing of Ge. 12:2 is linked to the blessing of Ge. 12:3, which has not yet occurred (i.e., all the families of the earth in Abraham have NOT yet shared in the promised land inheritance).

    But don't worry. Paul assures us that all Christians in Abraham share in that promised inheritance (Gal. 3:29). But it is still an unrealized promise, because we have not yet inherited the land! That's why it is still a promise to which we look forward.

    And yes, this promise shall be fulfilled by virtue of the work of the Messiah who enables us to be grafted into God's family by faith and, thus, share in the covenants (Eph. 2:12) and the promised inheritance (Gal. 3:29).

    You wrote: "Faith has come, the law is fulfilled, we are no longer under law, or the Old Covenant. Stop posting addresses, and verses out of context!"

    The faith by which we live (Gal. 3:11, quoting Hab. 2:4, Heb. "emunah") is an "emunah" of Torah-obedience (Ps. 119:30,86,138). And Torah entails animal sacrifices. Thus, faith does NOT imply Torah is terminated.

    And, faith does NOT imply that animal sacrifices shall not be restored according to the prophets who guarantee restoration of animal sacrifices (Eze. 20; Eze. 40-47; Is. 66; Jer. 33; Dt. 30; Eze. 40-47; Mal. 3).

    And, NOT everything in the law is fulfilled (e.g., Dt. 30:1-8).

    And yes, we are "not under law" in the technical sense Paul describes. Nevertheless, Paul STILL obeys Torah (Ac. 21) and teaches others to do the same (1 Cor. 7:19).

    CONCLUSION: It is not I who have posted verses out of context. Rather, it is I who have shown that your position is contradicted by the broader context of Scriptures for which you have not accounted.

    regards...

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    Paul clearly says that the promise went to the "seed", which is singular, not to many. Its all about Christ, not about Jews.
    Actually, Paul says we are fellow heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:29).

    "Heirs" are people who inherit something! What inheritance do we share? The SAME inheritance promised to Abraham (Gal. 3:18).

    What is this inheritance promised to Abraham? It includes inheritance in the LAND (Ge. 12:1) promised to Abraham.

    So, Christians share in the promised land-inheritance, as we are fellow heirs of the same inheritance by faith, just like Abraham.

    Remember! The gospel (Gal. 3:8) includes the blessing of Ge. 12, and this blessing includes the land-inheritance.

    This has not yet happened, but we look forward to sharing in this promised inheritance in the future.

    regards...

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    The problem with the literalist futurist "theologies" is failure to see the spiritual intent of the prophecies - we see from below that when the Gentiles were gathered under the "ensign/banner" of Christ was the time of the regathering of the tribes:

    Isa 11:10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious.

    Isa 11:11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.

    Isa 11:12 He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.

    The facts are that James was writing to those being reclaimed, "the remnant" when he wrote to them in the 1st century:

    James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.

    To claim that Isaiah is not fulfilled when the Gentiles were brought in is to deny that the Lord had reached "out his hand a second time".

    There is no
    third time.

    You claim that Is. 11:10-12 already happened?

    Don't think so! Even you have conceded that Jas. 1:1 refers to the "twelve tribes scattered among the nations", thereby confirming that the tribes had NOT yet been assembled (per Is. 11:12).

    So, since the tribes have not yet been assembled, it follows that Is. 11:12 has NOT yet been fulfilled.

    This prophecy is yet FUTURE.

    regards...

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela53510 View Post
    No, if you actually read the Bible, you will see that there is NO reason for animal sacrifices. Instead, you read websites and post them, complete without looking at the verses.

    Please feel free to comment on the Greek exegetics on Hebrews 8:13 above. Oh wait, you can't! You are going to hold onto sunny optimism, instead of the actual words of the Bible.

    Too bad! For a guy with the word "Bible" in his screen name, you sure do not read it, use it, or understand it!
    Hello Angela,

    You wrote: "No, if you actually read the Bible, you will see that there is NO reason for animal sacrifices."

    My response: Paul and four others had a reason (Ac. 21).

    Many disciples were priests who had a reason (Ac. 6).

    Ezekiel gives a reason (Eze. 20).

    Ezekiel gives another reason (Eze. 40-47).

    Isaiah gives a reason (Is. 66).

    Jeremiah gives a reason (Jer. 33).

    Moses gives a reason (Dt. 30).

    Jesus gives a reason (Mal. 3).

    Jesus gives another reason (Zec. 6).

    So, looks like we have LOTS of reasons.

    You wrote: "Instead, you read websites and post them, complete without looking at the verses."

    My response: Fake news! I'm telling you my personal interpretation of Scripture, Angela....not quoting verses from websites without looking them up!

    If you need to resort to fake news, then wow! That's unfortunate.

    Let's stay focused on the substance of my position. Please retract the fake news allegation.

    You wrote: "Please feel free to comment on the Greek exegetics on Hebrews 8:13 above. Oh wait, you can't! You are going to hold onto sunny optimism, instead of the actual words of the Bible."

    My response: Ok...I'll do it again.

    Heb. 8:13 says the Old Covenant is READY (Gr. "engoos") to pass away, thereby confirming it had NOT yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.

    And YES, something can be "engoos", yet not occur for thousands of years later, just like Rev. 22:10 says that the words of the book of the prophecy of Revelation is "engoos", yet here we are some 2000 years later still waiting for the complete fulfillment of all those words!

    Thus, Heb. 8:13 proves that the New Covenant and Old Covenant function simultaneously.

    Perhaps as I read further through this thread (I'm only at post #83) I will see you answer this point.

    Until then....best regards....

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by posthuman View Post
    this right here,

    this is a promise to those baptized into Moses, that if they obey the Law of the covenant made with them at Sinai they will be blessed.

    (1) that is not the covenant we have entered into with Jesus - we were baptized into Christ, not Moses, and the priesthood is no longer after Levi
    (2) not fulfilled? have you not heard of Hezekiah or Josiah? when the nation Israel turned toward God, and repented of their idolatry, He blessed them, just as Deuteronomy 30:1-8 promised.
    Hello,

    You wrote: "[Dt.30:1-8] is not the covenant we have entered into with Jesus - we were baptized into Christ, not Moses, and the priesthood is no longer after Levi."

    My response: To the contrary, Jesus will come to RESTORE the covenant with Levi (Mal. 3) in the temple he will rebuild (Zec. 6).

    And, what covenant did Jesus inaugurate? The NEW COVENANT (Lk. 22:20) in which Torah (Jer. 31) is written upon our hearts so that we will obey it. And Torah-obedience entails animal sacrifices.

    That's why animal sacrifices are CONSISTENT with the New Covenant Jesus inaugurated.

    You wrote: "have you not heard of Hezekiah or Josiah? when the nation Israel turned toward God, and repented of their idolatry, He blessed them, just as Deuteronomy 30:1-8 promised."

    My response: NOT ALL Israel returned to the promised land (as promised in the prophets) in the time of Hezekiah or Josiah. That's why Jesus was STILL SEEKING the lost sheep of Israel (Mt. 10:6). That's why James refers to the tribes as still being scattered (Jas. 1:1).

    regards...

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by posthuman View Post
    haven't read the thread yet, only post #1 and responded to first error i saw.

    has he asked us to send money to Israel to help rebuild temple yet?

    hahaha


    srsly tho, seems like likely end-game to me.
    please enjoy my honest reactions

    Not sure that Jesus will need financial donations to rebuild the temple He will rebuild (Zec. 6) when he restores the animal-sacrifice-laden covenant with Levi (Mal. 3).

    It does appear that others will come to help in the rebuilding process (Zec. 6:15), so maybe they will still need to raise funds for their airfare?

    Not sure....

    But hey...a little humour is nice to lighten things up!

    regards...

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by posthuman View Post
    Ezekiel was never told to build the temple in his vision. he was specifically told to relate this vision to the people of Israel so that they would be ashamed of their sins, by considering its perfection ((ch. 43 v.10)) that doesn't constitute prophecy of a future physical temple and does not constitute a command to construct it. in the same way John's vision of the heavenly city with its 12 gates does not constitute a command to build a physical city or even prophecy that a literal, corporeal city will be.
    Eze. 43:10 does not state that Eze. 40-47 is NOT a future prophecy.

    You haven't proved your point.

    And, why assume John's vision is not future prophecy? Rev. 22:10 states that the words of John's revelation are NEAR (Gr. "engoos"), implying that those words MUST be fulfilled at some future time.

    Again, Rev. 1:1 states that the words of John's vision WILL TAKE PLACE.

    So, if John's revelation will be fulfilled in the future, then I see no reason to suppose we should not favor literal (over figurative) interpretations, in general.

    You haven't justified your non-literal interpretation of John's vision.

    regards...

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by posthuman View Post
    why would we go back to shadows when we have the substance?
    The shadow functions (present tense!) in Col. 2:17. Argue with Paul, not me.

    Moreover, when you behold a tree in all its fullness, does the shadow cease to exist? Of course not. The shadow CONTINUES to function, even AFTER beholding the fullness of the tree.

    regards...

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by BibleGuy View Post
    Not sure that Jesus will need financial donations to rebuild the temple He will rebuild (Zec. 6) when he restores the animal-sacrifice-laden covenant with Levi (Mal. 3).

    It does appear that others will come to help in the rebuilding process (Zec. 6:15), so maybe they will still need to raise funds for their airfare?

    Not sure....

    But hey...a little humour is nice to lighten things up!

    regards...

    Will the veil be mended for the anti-christs?

    Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that "spirit of antichrist", whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.1Jo 4:2


    Has he come in the flesh? Will there be another demonstration?

    2Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

    What does now define in the passage? How long is henthforth ?. What does no more mean?
    Last edited by garee; February 14th, 2018 at 08:28 AM.

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Laish View Post
    Well another problem is that they ( literalist and futurist) have is once they see prophecy,many jump to the conclusion that it’s is a impending event. Many ( not all ) don’t take into consideration that thousands of years have gone by and that these events may have been fulfilled in years past .
    Blessings
    Bill
    Hi Bill,

    You're right. Some prophecies are fulfilled...others are not. Some have dual fulfillment.

    But NOT ALL Israelites had returned to Israel in Jesus' day. Jesus was still seeking them (Mt. 10:6), and James noted they were still scattered (Jas. 1:1).

    And, NOT ALL Israelites have returned to Israel since Jesus' day.

    Therefore, prophecies regarding the return of all Israelites to the land of Israel are yet FUTURE.

    Dt. 30:1-8 notably confirms that this return shall occur in conjunction with 100% Torah-obedience (thus, including animal sacrifices).

    It follows that animal sacrifices are yet future.

    Also, did Jesus restore the covenant with Lev yet? (Mal. 3). No.

    Did Jesus rebuild the temple (in which animal sacrifices will occur) yet? (Zec. 6) No.

    So again, we see that animal sacrifices are a FUTURE event guaranteed by the prophets, where even Jesus will evidently play a significant role in that very restoration.

    regards...

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    Really? So all those details regarding a future temple in Jerusalem was simply AN EXERCISE IN FUTILITY? Why do Christians have a problem because God has a plan for redeemed and restored Israel? It almost seems that the spirit of jealousy has taken hold of some so they cannot abide the fact that Israel will indeed be greater Israel under David and Christ and all those living in that land from the Nile to the Euphrates will be saved by grace through faith and under the New Covenant.

    Now even though the prophecies regarding Israel in Ezekiel are all under the New Covenant, there is still an anomaly which only God and Christ will resolve in the future. Since the finished work of Christ is indeed a perfectly finished work, nothing more can be added to it, and certainly not any merits in animal sacrifices. So God must have another reason for this anomaly and we need not get perturbed simply because we cannot explain the discrepancy. What we should keep in mind is that the New Covenant will be operational.

    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

    25
    Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

    26
    A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    27
    And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    28
    And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. (Ezek 36:24-28)

    Thank you!

    And notice that we see the New Covenant and animal sacrifices and complete Torah-obedience and the return to the promised land ALL HARMONIOUSLY functioning in Eze. 36.

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bladerunner View Post
    Well BibleGuy, I guess your Jewish and have rejected Jesus as your savior or you gentile and have done the same.... It seems you are figuring to go through the tribulations. So Sad----there is another way.
    What?????

    Where is your proof of all these guesses?

    Not sure if you're serious....

    regards...

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    Greetings BibleGuy,

    Those who belong to the church, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile, are two separate entities, two different dispensations. For regarding the church it is written:

    "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatian 3:28

    Those in Christ have been credited with His righteousness and have been reconciled to God, without spot or blemish. The church will not perform animal sacrifices any more than Christ himself would, for the church has been seated with Christ in heavenly realms. - Eph.2:6

    The next event, and which has and continues to be imminent, will be the gathering of the church. When this takes place, the dead in Christ will rise first in their immortal and glorified bodies. Immediately after that, the living in Christ will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will meet the Lord in the air, where He will take the entire church back to the Father's house. (John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)

    After that will begin "The Day of the Lord," the time of God's wrath, which will include the fulfillment of that last seven years of the seventy sets of seven year periods decreed upon the nation Israel her holy city Jerusalem, and God's wrath upon the rest of the Christ rejecting world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. (Dan.9:24-27, Revelation 6 thru 18)

    Once God's wrath has been completed the Lord will descend from heaven to end the age, and the church/bride who will have previously been gathered, will receive her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb, which takes place in heaven and will follow Christ out of heaven riding on white horses, wearing her fine linen. (Rev.19:6-8, 14). In further support of this Rev.17:14 has the Lord's "called, chosen and faithful followers," i.e. the church, returning with him as he engages the nations who will be gathered against him at Armageddon.

    During the millennial period, the earth will be repopulated by those of Israel and the great tribulation saints, who make it through the time of God's wrath and the beasts kingdom, alive. These will still be mortal bodies with their sinful natures. In opposition, several years earlier will have been clothed with their immoral and glorified bodies and will be ruling with Christ over those people during the millennium:

    "And to the one who is victorious and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery—just as I have received authority from My Father. And I will give him the morning star." - Rev.2:26-28

    And regarding the great tribulation saints who will be resurrected:

    "Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years." - Rev.20:4-6
    Hi there Ahwatukee,

    Nice to hear from you again. Hope you have been well and blessed.

    Ok...

    Gal. 3:28 or Eph. 2:6 does not say animal sacrifices will not occur in the future.

    In fact, Mal. 3 has Jesus RESTORING the animal-sacrifice-laden covenant with Levi.

    John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53, Dan.9:24-27, Revelation 6 thru 18, Rev.19:6-8, 14, Rev.17:14, and Rev.2:26-28 do not say animal sacrifices will not occur in the future.

    And, Rev. 20:4-6 refers to FUTURE PRIESTS, just like Mal. 3 prophecies FUTURE PRIESTS to be restored by Jesus Himself.

    And what do Levitical priests do? Animal sacrifices!

    So, you haven't really engaged my position.

    In fact, you haven't even addressed the following prophets which GUARANTEE future animal sacrifices: Eze. 20; Eze. 40-47; Is. 66; Jer. 33; Dt. 30; Mal. 3; Zec. 6.

    So, as I said in the OP, please state which specific premises you reject (and why).

    Your post looks more like something you just copied and pasted from somewhere else, and it doesn't really even address the issues I've raised here in this thread.

    Hope to hear from you...

    regards...

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by posthuman View Post
    "a great multitude which no man can number"

    Say, doesn't Jeremiah 33 mention something about His priests becoming as the sands of the seashore, that no man can number?
    Jer. 33:22.

    Again, as Jesus fulfills the Davidic Covenant in the future, we see that Levitical priestly activity (which of course entails animal sacrifices) is prophesied for the FUTURE.

    regards...

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by BibleGuy View Post
    The shadow functions (present tense!) in Col. 2:17. Argue with Paul, not me.

    Moreover, when you behold a tree in all its fullness, does the shadow cease to exist? Of course not. The shadow CONTINUES to function, even AFTER beholding the fullness of the tree.

    regards...

    The shadows had to do with ceremonial laws as away of preaching the gospel in the old testament in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand . the period of time used as a parable came to end at the time of refomation.

    What is your view on the reformation? How did affect the outward flesh of a Jew? Is there a continuation of the genealogy or was the Son of man born of the flesh which he says could not profit,the last ?

    Do we ignore the reformation in favor of the flesh of the Jewish people.

    The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure (parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them "until the time of reformation".Heb 9:10

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