ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

BibleGuy · Feb 16, 2018

Hello LoveGodForever,

You wrote: "Now for Ezekiel Chapters 40 to 47 you need to be a bit more specific. Why do you think this is talking future restoration of priestly/Levitical/and animal sacrifices? This is talking about a time when Israel was in captivity to Babylon (Ezekiel 40:1)"

My response: Sure, Ezekiel's prophecies were originally given to Ezekiel (from God) during the time of Ezekiel. But the prophecy [Eze. 40-47] refers to sacrificial activity that has NOT yet occurred. Therefore, it is a FUTURE prophecy that is not yet fulfilled.

You wrote: "Consideration also needs to be given to the fact that God's promises are are conditional on OBEDIENCE or DISOBEDIENCE note of reference in these chapters that describe the rebuilding of the temple is Ezekiel 43:10-11."

My response: Indeed! And Ezekiel GUARANTEES the prophecy if the Israelites are ashamed (Heb. "kalam", Eze. 43:10-11).

AND! Ezekiel GUARANTEES that the Israelites will be ashamed (Heb. "kalam", Eze. 16:61-63).

Therefore, Eze. 40-47 is GUARANTEED to occur in the FUTURE (because it has not yet happened).

This entails that animal sacrifices will occur in the FUTURE, according to the prophecies of Ezekiel.

You wrote: "Lets make it very clear here; there is no scripture presented anywhere here in Ezekiel 40-48 that says that Christians in the NEW COVENANT after the death of Jesus to which animal sacrifices and sin offerings pointed to (Shadows) will continue under the NEW Covenant."

My response: To the contrary, I've now shown that Ezekiel GUARANTEES that Israelites will be ashamed (Eze. 16) and, thus, Eze. 40-47 will occur at that future time (because the condition in Eze. 43:10-11 will be satisfied after Eze. 16:61-63 is fulfilled).

And, since that future time will be during the New-Covenant-era, it follows that we now have evidence that animal sacrifices (as guaranteed by Ezekiel) will occur in the future (which, of course, will be during the New-Covenant-era).

You wrote: "This is clearly outlined further in Hebrews 4-13 that discuss the heavenly sanctuary of which that of the earth was only a copy and the ministration of Jesus as our true sacrifice for sin and his new role as our great high priest."

My response: To the contrary, Heb. 8:13 states that the Old Covenant is READY/NEAR to disappear, proving that it had NOT yet disappeared as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews, thereby confirming that the Old Covenant and New Covenant function simultaneously.

Furthermore, the New Covenant consists of Torah (see "Torah", Jer. 31) written upon our hearts so that we will obey it. And Torah, of course, entails animal sacrifices. So then, animal sacrifices and the New Covenant are consistent.

You wrote: "Nowhere does it say in the scriptures above [Jer. 33] that Christians in the NEW COVENANT after the death of Jesus to which animal sacrifices and sin offerings pointed to (Shadows) will continue under the NEW Covenant. You are reading this into the scriptures and the scripture does not say such things. Sorry, BG just being honest here."

My response: You still missed it. Please read the Scripture again.

Did you read it [Jer. 33:20-22] ? Ok! Now, do DAY and NIGHT still occur? Of course! Therefore, Levitical/priestly activity is GUARANTEED to continue (per Jer. 33:20-22).

And what do Levitical priests do? Sacrifices!

Thus, Jer. 33:20-22 GUARANTEES ongoing sacrificial activity (because DAY and NIGHT still occur!)

YHVH could not be much more explicit than that.

Aren't you frightened to be opposing YHVH like that?

And, since DAY and NIGHT occur during this New Covenant era, it follows that SACRIFICES shall also occur during this New Covenant era (per Jer. 33:20-22).

Jesus fulfills the Davidic Covenant, right? Of course! That's why Jesus comes to RESTORE the covenant with Levi (Mal. 3), in fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant which guarantees restoration of ongoing Levitical/sacrificial activity (Jer. 33:20-22).

You've given us no good reason to dispute these Scriptures.

And, let's be clear: NOTHING in these Scriptures states that New Covenant Christians will NOT participate in animal sacrificial activity in the future.

And, Col. 2:17 (present tense!) has the shadows functioning (present tense!) during the New Covenant era, which again confirms the ongoing function of animal sacrificial activity, even though the fuller substance is in Christ.

You wrote: "There is nothing in the scriptures here [Zec. 14] that refer the NEW Covenant believer to offer animal sacrifices that pointed to Jesus under the NEW covenant."

My response: You agree Zec. 14 refers to a future event.

Zec. 14:18 is a FUTURE GLOBAL celebration of Sukkot.

Sukkot entails MANY sacrifices (Nu. 29:12-40).

The New Covenant has already been inaugurated (Lk. 22).

Christians will exist on the planet in the future.

THEREFORE, future global celebration of the animal-sacrifice-laden feast of Sukkot will be globally required (no exceptions given for future Christians!)

Again, I have given you reason to see that Christians will participate in animal sacrificial activity in the future.

Even YOU agree that Zec. 14 is yet future.

Remember: NOTHING in Zec. 14 states that Christians are exempt from the global requirement of this future sacrificial activity. And, since Christians are accepted as fellow Israelites, Christians in Israel will be participating in this future sacrificial activity, as guaranteed by the prophet Zechariah.

You wrote: "So with the context in mind that we are talking about John the Baptist and Jesus let's move forward."

My response: Yes, Mal. 3:1-4 refers to activities of John the Baptist and Jesus.

Regarding Mal. 3:2-4, you wrote: "What is the scripture here talking about? These scriptures are talking about the life of Christ at the first coming and to his Sacrifice for sin. He as the sinless lamb of God offered His RIGHTEOUSNESS for our SINS so we can be made right with God putting an end to the temple and sacrificial offerings for SINS. What offerings are we talking about the offerings of RIGHTEOUSNESS under the NEW Covenant of God's LAW written on the heart of the believer to LOVE."

My response: Yikes! I'd say you've got a fair bit of eisegesis going on here.

Mal. 3:2-4 states NOTHING about "putting an end to the temple and sacrificial offerings".

You TRULY just made that up!

Please read AGAIN:

3, And he (Jesus) shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer to the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4, Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant to the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years

Now then! The restored offering is a LEVITICAL offering (not an offering made by Jesus or by all Christians in general) which is performed by the SONS OF LEVI (Mal. 3:3), not by Jesus or by all Christians in general.

And what kind of offerings to SONS OF LEVI perform? Animal-Sacrificial offerings! AS IN THE DAYS OF OLD (Mal. 3:4).

So then, Jesus will restore LEVITICIAL animal-sacrificial activity AS IN THE DAYS OF OLD (Mal. 3:4).

Did the Levitical activity "in the days of old" include animal sacrifices? Of course!

So then, Jesus will restore Levitical animal sacrificial activity AS IN THE DAYS OF OLD (Mal. 3:4).

NOTHING in Mal. 3:4 says that Christians in the New Covenant era will not participate in such activity.

And, since Christians will exist in the future (when Jesus restores this Levitical sacrificial activity), it follows that Christians shall be expected to participate in that activity, in accordance with these Torah portions restored by Jesus.

Hope to hear from you....

blessings...

PS Let's love God forever (Mt. 22:37 quoting Dt. 6). And HOW does Dt. 6 say we should love God? By obeying ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25), which of course, entails obedience to animal sacrificial laws when properly performed, just as Jesus taught us.

LoveGodForever · Feb 16, 2018

Hello BiblyGuy,

You wrote in your OP.....

Is this true or have you already made up your own mind and no really open to correction and instruction in righteousness? I ask this in all sincerity as I am concerned for your salvation. Animal sacrifices in the OLD Covenant only pointed foward to the coming of the true sacrifice for all mankind; God's dear son. Once the Saviour had arrived why would there be any more need for animal sacrifices from the OLD Covenant when we are now in the NEW Covenant which Hebrews 7-13 outline?

Your OP is the same as stating Christ sacrifice was not good enough lets go back to the OLD Covenant laws for remission of SIN where the NEW Covenant teach these were only shadows pointing to God's plan of salvation.

You my friend are tredding in dangerous waters and if you do not turn to Jesus as our great sacrifice for forgiveness of your SINS then you are in danger of losing your salvation. Are you open to being wrong BibleGuy? From your posting it does not seem you are looking for help from anyone and your mind is already closed.

............

I am not quite sure you understand what was written to you in post #102 because of the reply you made. I do NOT agree that your reply here adresses this post at all. Let's look at what you have said here and what you have left out of your reply.

BibleGuy said:

I agree that Deteronomy 30 is referring to the blessings and curses of obedience to the Torah under the OLD Covenant BEFORE Christ. So please explain how this is applicable under the NEW Covenant once Christ has come and died to which these animal sacrifices were pointing to under the OLD Covenant? The CONTEXT in Deuteronomy 30 is the OLD COVENANT BEFORE CHRIST not the NEW COVENANT AFTER CHRIST.

BibleGuy said:

It seems God's Word disagrees with you. How does your post adress post #102 which shows the scriptures of the captivity and return of Israel from receiving the curses for disobedience and the blessings for obedience?

Ezra 5
13, But in the first year of Cyrus the king of Babylon the same king Cyrus made a decree to build this house of God.
14, And the vessels also of gold and silver of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took out of the temple that was in Jerusalem, and brought them into the temple of Babylon, those did Cyrus the king take out of the temple of Babylon, and they were delivered to one, whose name was Sheshbazzar, whom he had made governor;
15, And said to him, Take these vessels, go, carry them into the temple that is in Jerusalem, and let the house of God be built in his place.

It is clear you are only ignoring the scriptures sent to help you now as your respense has NOT addressed the post and the scriptures in them.

BibleGuy said:

Goodness BibleGuy you must be trying pretty hard NOT to look at the scriptures and History. In this post however I did focus more on the history and scriptures references in relation to Israels CAPTIVITY for disobedience more so than its release from CAPTIVITY.

RELEASE FROM CAPTIVITY AND REBUILDING THE TEMPLE

- First return to Judah ( Ezra Chapters 1-6 )
- Second return ( Ezra Chapters 7-10 )
- Third Return and rebuilding the wall ( Nehamiah Chapters 1-13)

So yep this does not address post #102 which shows the scriptures of the captivity and return of Israel from receiving the curses for disobedience and the blessings for obedience? Extra RETURN FROM CAPTIVITY scriptures provided here for your reference.

BibleGuy said:

Who says that the RETURN to ISRAEL has to be PERMANANT? The covenant of the BLESSINGS and the CURSES were CONDITIONAL of Israels OBEDIENCE or DiSOBEDIENCE. Your shifting the goal posts now so to speak and adding something into scripture that is NOT there.

NOWHERE in scripture does it say Israels return from CAPTIVITY in Deuteronomy 28-30 has to be permanant and that EVERY single Israelite had to return? Disagree please show the scripture that says in order for the scriptures fulfillment EVERY Israelite has to return?

So yep that does not address post #102 which shows the scriptures of the captivity and return of Israel from receiving the curses for disobedience and the blessings for obedience?

It says nowhere in the scriptures that this needs to be a permanant return and says nothing about latter days in Deuteronomy 30. You are reading something into the scriptures that it is NOT saying.

Please if you disagree with me show me the scriptures that say Deuteronomy is talking at the "Latter days" or that the return from captivity needs to be permanant before the scriptures are to be fulfilled?

Rather the covenant of the blessings and curses were based on the OBEDIENCE or DISOBEDIENCE of God's people at the time it was given and fulfilled accordingly as scripture and history shows it was.

BibleGuy said:

Repetition already addressed above Deteronomy 30 is referring to the blessings and curses of obedience to the Torah under the OLD Covenant BEFORE Christ. So please explain how this is applicable under the NEW Covenant once Christ has come and died to which these animal sacrifices were pointing to under the OLD Covenant? The CONTEXT in Deuteronomy 30 is the OLD COVENANT BEFORE CHRIST not the NEW COVENANT AFTER CHRIST.

BibleGuy said:

Not at all my friend I did not oppose any of the scriptures these are in agreement with the scriptures I have been sharing with you, I am in agreement with these scriptures you have quoted.

However I am opposing your interpretation of them. All of these have already been addressed with scriptures in post # 114 so no need for repetition here. Do you have any further scripture support? This has NOT addressed my post and only restating your interpretation of the scripture again.

All your 12 points have been refuted in POST # 112; POST # 113; POST # 114; POST # 115 and outlining God's priesthood and sacrificial system un the NEW COVENANT in POST # 116

Yikes! INDEED it is not looking goodo for your salvation my friend if you keep holding on your your interpretation of the scriptures that disagree with God's Word. Only Jesus is our true sacrifice under the NEW COVENANT.

I think you are correct in stating that you need to consider this further as the weight of evidence in scripture and History disagrees with your viewpoint. This is sad for you my friend. Seriously I only write this out of concern for your soul which only Jesus can heal not any shadows of animal sacrifices that pointed to Jesus.

Maybe you can pray about it at home. We only have forgivenly by Faith in Christ not in animal sacrifices.

BibleGuy · Feb 16, 2018

LoveGodForever said:

Hello,

Ok! Continuing on...

You wrote: "Issaiah 66 is talking about the second coming and new earth and keeping a new moon and Sabbath but there is no reference to offering animal sacrifices."

My response: There is also no reference to dish soap! But that's no proof that there won't be dish soap at that time.

In other words, you've got an argument from silence as a defense. That doesn't work.

Furthermore, Isaiah is a Torah-sanctioned prophet authorized by God to prophesy to the people of Israel to whom Torah has been given.

So, if Isaiah prophesied of a Sabbath that contradicts Torah, then Isaiah would be a false prophet (Dt. 13:1-5).

Is Isaiah a false prophet? Of course not! Therefore, Sabbath (for Isaiah) is a TORAH-COMPLIANT Sabbath, which entails animal sacrifices in conjunction with that Sabbath (Nu. 28:9-10).

It follows that Isaiah must be prophesying of a Torah-compliant sacrifice-laden Sabbath (per Torah) which shall occur in the future.

You have given us no good reason to dispute this Scripturally-grounded inference.

You wrote: "No scripture presented anywhere here in Ezekiel 40-48 that says that Christians in the NEW COVENANT after the death of Jesus to which animal sacrifices and sin offerings pointed to (Shadows) will continue under the NEW Covenant."

My response: Your comment is out of place. But I'll address it again.

Eze. 40-47 is conditional upon Israel being ashamed (Is. 43:11), AND Ezekiel guarantees that Israel will be ashamed in the FUTURE (Eze. 16:61). Therefore, Eze. 40-47 (complete with all the mentioned animal sacrifices and Levitical priestly activity) will occur in the FUTURE (with NO exceptions mentioned for New Covenant Christians!), even though the New Covenant has (of course) now already been inaugurated.

That's why you are wrong to claim that Eze. 40-48 does not confirm that New Covenant Christians will participate in animal sacrifices or Levitical priestly activity in the future.

You wrote: "What laws in your view make up the Old Covenant and what where their purposes under the Old covenant?"

My response: We could say the Old Covenant Torah includes Ex. 12 to Ex. 13, and Ex. 20 to Dt. 34.

The purposes of the laws are manifold. One purpose, of course, is to provide an ONGOING (present tense in Col. 2:17!) shadow which continues to function as a pointer to the greater substance which is in Christ.

You wrote: "This argument here using the word ready to dissappear in Hebrews 8:13 to say the Old Covenant is still in force is contradictary to your arguments your support for 1, 2, 4 and 6 already discussed."

My response: Where's the contradiction? You haven't shown one. You merely asserted one. Please explicitly state whatever contradiction you have in mind.

After all, "ready/near to disappear" implies it had NOT yet disappeared. Pretty simple, actually. No contradiction.

And even YOU evidently concede that the Old Covenant had NOT disappeared as of early in the 1st century (say, around AD 50 or 60), thereby confirming that even YOU must accept that Old Covenant and New Covenant function SIMULTANEOUSLY.

You wrote: "If that is the case then according to you the NEW Covenant does not start until Jesus returns and no one is born again? Is this what you believe?"

My response: The New Covenant (Jer. 31) was inaugurated in Lk. 22. Years later, the writer of Hebrews says the Old Covenant is merely READY/NEAR to disappearing, thereby confirming it had NOT yet disappeared as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.

This confirms that the Old Covenant and New Covenant function simultaneously.

No contradiction. Just simultaneous function.

You wrote: "Hebrews 8 contradicts your support for points 1, 2, 4 and 6. So in your view the NEW covenant does not start even after the 2nd coming. So there is no New covenant?"

My response: I think the problem (in your mind) is that you have not discerned that both the OLD and NEW covenants function simultaneously.

Even YOU have conceded that the Old Covenant had NOT yet disappeared as of about AD 60 or 70 (near when Heb. 8:13 was written). But we know that the New Covenant was inaugurated earlier, at the time of Lk. 22.

Therefore, we have solid Scriptural confirmation that the Old and New covenants function simultaneously.

So there's no contradiction in supposing that animal sacrifices will resume when 100% of Torah is obeyed in the future.

After all, what happens in the NEW covenant? TORAH (see "Torah", Jer. 31) is written upon our hearts so that we obey it!

And Torah entails animal sacrifices.

Thus animal sacrifices and the New Covenant are consistent (not contradictory).

You wrote: "This [the argument from Ac. 6:7] starts off by talking about the NEW Covenant era but this then disagrees with your interpretation of point 5-6 which is in relation to the NEW Covenant not starting even after the 2nd coming?"

My response: I never stated that the New Covenant does not start until after the 2nd coming.

I'll say it again: The New Covenant was inaugurated in Lk. 22.

You wrote: "Now my friend if your being honest here where does it say in this scripture [Ac. 6:7] that these priests were continuing to offer animal sacrifices?"

My response: Where, my friend, does it say the priests continued to drink water when thirsty? It says no such thing!

Do we therefore insist that priests stopped drinking water when thirsty? Of course not!

Once again, you've got an invalid argument from silence coloring your arguments the wrong color.

Moreover, WHERE does it say (in Ac. 6:7) that the disciples who were priests STOPPED participation in animal sacrifices?

Nowhere!

Furthermore, what do priests do? They participate in sacrifices!

What did priests continue to do even later (Ac. 21)? Sacrifices!

What did Paul participate in even AFTER Ac. 6:7? Sacrificial activity! (Ac. 21)

What did Paul's four associates also do even AFTER Ac. 6:7? Sacrificial activity! (Ac. 21)

What was the REASON for Paul's participation in the sacrificical activity of Ac. 21? Answer: To prove that Paul walked orderly, keeping the Torah (Ac. 21), which of course entails obedience to animal sacrifice laws in the Torah.

What did THOUSANDS of 1st-century disciples continue to be zealous for? TORAH! (Ac. 21), which of course entails obedience to sacrifice laws in the Torah.

So, we have NO good reason to suppose that the priests who became disciples in Ac. 6:7 discontinued their priestly functions (because, after all, Scripture says no such thing).

AND, we have GOOD reason to suppose that the priests continued to function in their priestly sacrificial duties, as confirmed by:

1. The meaning of "priest" in Ac. 6:7.
2. The ongoing sacrificial activity condoned by Paul (Ac. 21).
3. The ongoing sacrificial activity condoned by Paul's four associates (Ac. 21).
4. The PURPOSE of the sacrificial activity condoned by Paul and his four associates.
5. The ongoing sacrificial activity condoned by THOUSANDS of 1st-century disciples (Ac. 21).
6. The ongoing function of the Old Covenant even during the New Covenant era (as inferred from Heb. 8:13).

So, you gave us NO good reason to suppose priests discontinued their sacrificial duties.

I gave you MANY reasons which confirm that they CONTINUED their sacrificial duties, even as disciples.

Therefore, your conclusion: "This scripture does not suppor the idea of animal sacrifices" is soundly disconfirmed by the aforementioned considerations.

Moving on....

Regarding Ac. 21:20-26, you state: "Pauls mindset was that he was all things to all people. Paul became all things to all people that he might share God's Word..."

My response: NOTHING in Ac. 21:20-26 states that the purpose of Paul's support for sacrificial activity was to "become all things to all people that he might share God's Word..."

Sorry, but you just made that up! That's another bad case of eisegesis.

Furthermore, the REASON for Paul's participation in the sacrificial activity in Ac. 21 is EXPLICITLY STATED in the Scripture there!

Remember? Paul participated in the vow along with four other men (Ac. 21:23-24) for the purpose of showing that he "WALKS ORDERLY KEEPING THE LAW" (Ac. 21:24).

Thus, Paul made a PUBLIC DECLARATION (via the vow) that he OBEYS TORAH (which, of course, entails animal sacrifices).

THAT was the purpose of the vow, as stated in Scripture.

It follows that Paul AFFIRMS the ongoing function of sacrificial activity even during the New Covenant era.

You have given us no good reason to dispute this inference.

I have shown you why this inference is Scripturally grounded.

You wrote: " At this time the Old Covenant was the practice of the majority and had not yet passed away although it was already fulfilled at the cross the Gospel was newly being preached."

My response: Ah yes! Then we AGREE that the Old Covenant and New Covenant function SIMULTANEOUSLY!

You wrote: "Paul became all things to all people that he may share the word of God (Gospel) of the New Testament."

My response: That is NOT the stated reason for Paul's participation in the sacrificial activity of Ac. 21. The stated reason was to prove that Paul walked in obedience to TORAH (Ac. 21:24), which of course entails that Paul obeyed sacrificial Torah.

We should likewise imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1), not oppose his practice!

You wrote: "The scriptures used above do NOT support a case foe animal sacrifices as this would be to deny the sacrifice of Christ to which the sacrificial system under the Old Covenant pointed to in the NEW Covenant."

My response: Why assume that ongoing animal sacrifices deny the sacrifice of Christ? You just made that up.

PAUL states that the law CONTINUES (present tense, Col. 2:17) to function as an ongoing shadow.

Paul commands us to obey Torah (1 Cor. 7:19), which of course entails obedience to animal sacrifice laws as appropriate.

Paul tells us to not sin (Rom. 6), which of course entails that we should NOT disobey Torah, thus we should NOT disobey or oppose animal sacrifice laws as properly performed.

Furthermore, the prophets guarantee restoration of animal sacrifices (Jer. 33; Is. 66; Zec. 6; Dt. 30; Eze. 20; Eze. 40-47; Mal. 3), even though the New Covenant (Jer. 31) has already been inaugurated (Lk. 22).

Your position has not accounted for these considerations (or many others I could also raise).

Please revise your position in accordance with these Scriptural considerations I've set forth.

blessings....

BibleGuy · Feb 16, 2018

LoveGodForever said:

Hello,

I wrote:

10. A. Sabbath Torah is (present tense!) a shadow of the substance in Christ (Col. 2:16-17).
B. Col. 2 was written after the inauguration of the New-Covenant era.
C. Col. 2 is, thus, evidence that Sabbath Torah (which, of course, includes associated sacrificial activity when properly performed) is an ONGOING FUNCTIONING SHADOW which CONTINUES to point to the substance in Christ.

You wrote: "This point seems to have a total disregard for the NEW Covenant and Shadows pointing to Christ."

My response: To the contrary, my position AFFIRMS the ONGOING shadow-function which the law continues to serve during the New Covenant era, as stated by Paul in Col. 2:17. This shadow-function MAGNIFIES (not "disregards"!) the need for the greater substance found in Christ.

You wrote: "The handwriting of ordinances (ceremonial laws and ordinances written in a book) is referring to the ceremonial, ecclesiastical laws of Moses which included the Jewish annual festivals and sin offerings that pointed to Jesus."

My response: Absolutely false. You are deceived regarding the meaning of "dogma" (G1378).

Let's look at what G1378 actually represents in the Bible.

First, NO occurrence of G1378 in the LXX represents TORAH. See the LXX (Da. 2:13; 3:10,12,29; 4:6; 6:8,9,10,12,13,15,26) for proof.

Likewise, NO occurrence of G1378 in the NT represents TORAH. Let's look at what G1378 represents in the NT:

1. In Lk. 2:1, G1378 represents a decree from Ceasar Augustus (not Torah!)

2. In Ac. 16:4, G1378 represents decisions made by apostles and elders (not Torah!)

3. In Ac. 17:7, G1378 represents decrees of Ceasar (it does not represent Torah!)

4. In Eph. 2:15, G1378 represents a law which was a barrier that divided Gentiles from Israelites (Eph. 2:11-15). That's not Torah! There is no Torah instruction which is a barrier that prevents Gentiles from joining Israel. So, G1378 does NOT represent Torah in Eph. 2:15.

5. In Col. 2:14, does G1378 suddenly represent Torah (unlike every other usage of G1378 in the entire Bible)? Of course not.

Look carefully: In Col. 2:14 we see that G1378 represents THE CERTIFICATE OF DEBT (G5498), not Torah itself!

Is Torah a certificate of debt? Of course not.

There is no Scripture anywhere that states that Torah is a certificate of debt.

Do we sinners INCUR a debt (which we could never repay in our own faithless efforts of works) by virtue of having disobeyed Torah? Sure. But the TORAH is not the DEBT.

The TORAH was not cancelled. The DEBT (G5498) was cancelled. Of course! Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe.

But not a SHRED of Torah was cancelled. Rather, our DEBT was cancelled, according to Paul in Col. 2.

CONCLUSION: We have NO good reason to suppose G1378 ever represents TORAH in the Bible.

Therefore, Torah is NOT cancelled in Col. 2:14. That's why the shadow CONTINUES (present tense, Col. 2:17) to function as an ongoing shadow.

That's why Paul CONTINUES to participate in animal sacrifices (Ac. 21).
That's why Paul's four associates CONTINUE to participate in animal sacrifices (Ac. 21).
That's why THOUSANDS of 1st-century disciples CONTINUE to participate in animal sacrifices (Ac. 21).
That's why PRIESTS (who are disciples) continue to participate in animal sacrifices (Ac. 6).
That's a FUNCTION of the restoring action of Jesus who restores the covenant with LEVI (Mal. 3:1-4).
That's an associated event to occur when Sabbath is restored (Is. 66).
That's GUARANTEED when all Israelites return to the land to again obey 100% of Torah (Dt. 30:1-8).
That's GUARANTEED to be a global activity (with punishment for disobedience, Zec. 14).
That's assured as an ongoing activity in a future restored temple built by Jesus (Zec. 6).
That's GUARANTEED by Ezekiel (Eze.20; and again in Eze. 40-47, given Eze. 16).
That's GUARANTEED as sure as DAY AND NIGHT (Jer. 33) as a condition of the everlasting covenant with David, yet to be fully fulfilled as prophesied.

So, are you sure you want to disregard all these Scriptural considerations in an effort to hold onto your viewpoint?

Let's not base our theology on mistranslation and misunderstanding.

I urge you to come into alignment with Scripture.

ALL Scripture should correct and train our behavior (2 Ti. 3:16), and that includes animal sacrifice Scripture, when properly performed.

Moving on now!

In order to maintain your position, you have invoked an unbiblical division between "God's Law" and "The Law of Moses".

This division immediately fails.

Why?

1. Jesus tells us to love God (Mt. 22:37 citing Dt. 6). And HOW does Dt. 6 tell us to love God? By obeying ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25), not just a subset thereof.

2. Dt. 5:7 (one of the 10 commandments!) entails that we OBEY God. Does God merely command Israel to obey the 10 commandments? Of course not! God gives all the commands of Torah to all the Isarelites (e.g., Dt. 31:12; 32:46).

Therefore, obedience to the 10 Commandments entails obedience to all the rest (to the extent possible, of course, in this present diaspora).

The Torah is a unified body of instructions. The idea that you should only obey the 10 commandments (and simply ignore the rest of Torah because it is supposedly in a different "category") is UTTERLY foreign to the Hebraic context of Scripture).

Does Scripture state that "God's Law" excludes the laws of Moses? Of course not!

Does Scripture state that the "laws of Moses" are NOT from God? Of course not...God routinely communicated with Moses, and Moses conveyed the laws (not merely the 10!) to the Isarelites.

The Law of Moses IS God's law and it defines sin.

Is it sin to disobey Lev. 18? Of course! This is true, even though Lev. 18 is NOT part of the 10 Commandments.

You gave us no reason to dispute that ALL the law of Moses now defines sin.

Your distinction between the "10 Commandments" and the "laws of Moses" is artificial and unjustified.

You wrote: "It [the 10 Commandments] only gives a knowledge of what sin is and righteousness (right doing) (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4; Rom 6:23; Ps 119:172)."

My response: You are guilty of eisegesis again! Please stop that.

Does Rom. 3:20, 1 Jn. 3:4, Rom. 6;23, or Ps. 119:172 refer to "THE TEN COMMANDMENTS"? Of course not. You just made that up.

Rather, they refer to the LAW more generally (i.e., the laws of God) which are contained where? THE WRITTEN LAW OF MOSES (1 Ki. 2:3).

There it is again! You claim that God's 10 commandments are distinct from the law of moses, yet 1 Ki. 2:3 explicitly states that God's commandments are contained IN THE WRITTEN LAW OF MOSES!

Again, your attempt to divide the laws of God into your preferred unbiblical categories has failed.

You wrote: "The laws of Moses was the second set of laws and included all the civil, ceremonial, and ecclesiastical laws."

My response: Where does Scripture define "laws of Moses" as the "civil, ceremonial, and ecclesiastical laws" ?

It doesn't! You just made that up again. Let us PLEASE stop the eisegesis.

You wrote: "Why were the ceremonial laws of Moses (handwriting of ordinances) nailed to the cross?"

The ceremonial laws of Moses are NOT the hanwriting of ordinances nailed to the cross.

You never proved this. I already disproved it (see above).

You wrote: "It is our sins as well as the ceremonial laws of Moses that were nailed to the cross at the death of Jesus (Col 2:14; John 3:16)."

My response: Jn. 3:16 does NOT say that the ceremonial laws of Moses were nailed to the cross at the death of Jesus.

And. Col. 2:14 says the CERTIFICATE OF DEBT was nailed to the cross. The Torah is NOT the debt!

Nowhere is Torah referred to as a certificate of debt! You just made that up again.

The DEBT was cancelled, not the Torah.

Again, you have not justified your position against my critique.

You wrote: "The context is that all the ceremonial laws of Moses pointing to the plan of salvation and Jesus have been fulfilled and nailed to the cross and along with our sins, if we accept Jesus as our true Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world (John 1:29)."

Again, you have not justified your claim against the critique I've set forth.

You wrote: "We are no longer under the Old Covenant laws of Moses. These do not include God’s Law which is forever (Ecc 3:14)."

My response: Why not? You just made that up again! After all, you evidently have AGREED that the Old Covenant persisted until at least AD 60 or so, right? Well then, why assume it does not still persist?

You've still given no good reason.

Furthermore, Jesus sent forth TORAH-TEACHERS (Mt. 23:34) to represent His Torah-teaching Torah-upholding ministry. And ALL these Torah instructions (not merely the 10!) apply to ALL disciples (Mt. 28:20).

Again, your position is disconfirmed by the ministry functions of Jesus exemplified in Matthew.

In fact, opposition to Torah-obedience is pretty scary and dangerous (Mt. 7:21-23, Mt. 13:41-42; Mt. 5:19).

I urge you to take these warnings to heart! Your position places you in opposition to Torah portions.

You wrote: "Point 10 does NOT support practicing animal sacrifices. To do so would be to deny Christs sacrifice to which the Mosaic sacrificial system was a shadow pointing to Jesus."

My response: It IS (Present tense! Col. 2:17) a shadow, not WAS a shadow.

And sacrifices were condoned by Paul and thousands of other disciples, even disciples who were priests (Ac. 6; Ac. 21)! Apparently you think they were all wrong.

But I choose to imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1). You should too.

Furthermore, where does Col. 2 state that animal sarifices deny Christ's sacrifice? Nowhere! You just made that up again.

Please stop that.

You wrote: "...what we are talking about in this thread are the COVENANANTS in the OLD Testament for ther REMISSION of SINS most recently given in the Mosiac Covenant correct?"

My response: No. I cited Eph. 2:12 which states we Christians partake in the COVENANTS (plural). These covenants are between God and Israel (e.g., Mosaic Covenant and New Covenant are between GOD and ISRAEL).

So, Christian participation in these covenants entails that all Christians are ISRAELITES. Israelites should obey Torah (Mal. 4:4). Therefore, Christians should obey Torah, even animal sacrifice laws as properly performed.

You wrote: "The OLD COVENANT was made up of 1. God's 10 Commandments as the KNOWLEDGE OF SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS written and spoken by GOD himself and 2. the MOSIAC laws for remission of SINS (Ceremonial/Levitical/sacrificial). "

My response: You just invented that artificial division (which is foreign to Scripture). The Torah is a whole, with MANY distinct categories within it. Your classification has NOT been proven from Scripture. Rather, you just made it up, without any proof from Scripture at all.

And, is RIGHTEOUSNESS derived merely from the 10 commandments? Of course not! It comes in obedience to ALL God's commandments (Dt. 6:25). And WHERE are God's commandments found? THE WRITTEN TORAH OF MOSES (1 Ki. 2:3), not merely the 10 commandments!

Again, your position regarding "righteousness" in the law has failed.

You wrote: "So all this scripture [Eph. 2:12] is saying is that Gentiles are now a part of God's Israel which I agree. However the scripture does NOT support that we are to continue animal sacrifices."

You missed the point! Our participation in the covenants (Mosaic, Davidic, Abrahamic, and New) entails OBEDIENCE to the Torah of the covenants in which we participate. Thus, we also should obey the animal sacrifice laws, since they are laws of the covenants in which we participate as fellow grafted-in Israelites.

You wrote: "The scripture used in your support 11 does NOT support a claim for doing animal sacrifices."

My response: To the contrary, Eph. 2:12 shows we PARTICIPATE in covenants. What covenants? Covenants with associated Torah! And what does this Torah require? Animal sacrifices! It flows directly from Eph. 2:12.

You've given us no good reason to dispute the force of this consideration.

You wrote: "You do know that the book of Ezekiel was written while God's people were scattered among the nations and held in captivity to the Babylonian empire? The return happened some time latter after the fall of the Babylonian Empire to the Medes and Persians and after this through the decree from Cyrus to rebuild the temple."

My response: Now you are disproven by Scripture, again.

You claim that Eze. 20:30-44 has already occurred? Surely not! The house of Israel (Eze. 20:39) surely did NOT all return to the land of Israel following the end of the Babylonian Captivity.

How do we know? Because the return of Israelites to the land will NEVER be followed by another diaspora (Am. 9:15).

So then, did ANOTHER diaspora occur AFTER the return from Babylon? Of course! And that diaspora has STILL not yet ended. Therefore, Am. 9:15 is NOT yet fulfilled (and neither is Eze. 20:39), and therefore, the sacrifices entailed by the covenant activities of Eze. 20 are yet FUTURE, even though the New Covenant has already been inaugurated.

You wrote: "NO your premise is mixed up here as the return had already taken place at the decree of Cyrus."

My response: Not all Israelites returned. James agrees that a diaspora continues (Jas. 1:1). Jesus was still seeking the lost sheep of Israel.

Therefore, the return of all Israelites to enjoy the land-inheritance is yet FUTURE.

We Christians share in that promised land-inheritance (Gal. 3:29).

It is still an unfulfilled promise. We await its future fulfillment by FAITH, just like Abraham.

The prophecies of the great return and restoration of the kingdom to Israel have NOT yet occurred.

You wrote: "there is NOT one scripture that says that animal sacrifices need to be carried out in the NEW COVENANT."

My response: To the contrary, TORAH (Jer. 31) passes directly into the New Covenant. Torah entails SACRIFICES.

Thus, your position is immediately refuted by the implications of TORAH in Jer. 31.

You wrote: "The next post will look at supporting scriptures in the NEW Testament that do away with the OLD Covenant laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices and their fulfillment in Christ."

My response: Look forard to engaging your position...maybe in a few days.

blessings to you...

Ezekiel8 · Feb 16, 2018

BibleGuy said:

Well thank you for your response.

Firstly I would ask; how can you say the jewish establishment of today values the Torah when they are very boldly breaking the Torah? Not in a little tiny way are they breaking the Torah, I mean they are doing things that even if we overlook the Gospels, what they do is straight up condemned in the harshest terms in the Torah. The jews of today sacrifice the wrong animals, in the wrong places, by the wrong people, on the wrong altars, they perform the sacrifices in the wrong manner, and dispose of the bodies of that which is not consumed in the wrong way. This is all totally against the Torah if we are talking about and looking at the Torah alone. So then they are not obeying the Lord, nor are they obeying the Torah, they are obeying rather the other doctrines that their fathers made up. It would be better for the jews of today to seek after the Lord again and to do no sacrifice than it would be for them to do many thousands of sacrifices but still try to maintain the doctrines of their fathers, by which they set the Torah to no effect.

This reminds me of that proverb written by he who built the first temple saying;

To do justice and judgement is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice.

As for any restoration of the temple, a restoration of the Levites, and a restoration of sacrifices in compliance to the Torah, perhaps it will be so, but there will be no restoration until the jews repent. It would be very exciting if they did turn back and be restored to the branch of Israel, but at the same time I see that their hearts of hard, and they still go after the traditions and the doctrines which their fathers set forth by which they set the Torah, the prophets, Jesus, and even God to nothing in their hearts.

May the name of the Lord Jesus be blessed.

PlainWord · Feb 16, 2018

MHz said:

We have a book to guide us until Jesus returns. That is the day we enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The world of today is full of death and sin.
This verse below is the time of the change and it is in our future rather than our past.

Re:11:15-19:
And the seventh angel sounded;
and there were great voices in heaven,
saying,
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,
and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
And the four and twenty
elders,
which sat before God on their seats,
fell upon their faces,
and worshipped God,
Saying,
We give thee thanks,
O Lord God Almighty,
which art,
and wast,
and art to come;
because thou hast taken to thee thy great power,
and hast reigned.
And the nations were angry,
and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead,
that they should be judged,
and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,
and to the saints,
and them that fear thy name, small and great;
and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
And the temple of God was opened in heaven,
and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:
and there were lightnings,
and voices,
and thunderings,
and an earthquake,
and great hail.

Until He returns? You do realize that the Parousia of Christ happened in 70 AD, right? The Presence of Christ returned to punish the wicked of Jerusalem. This was called, "the wrath of the Lamb." In case you didn't know.

LoveGodForever · Feb 16, 2018

BibleGuy said:

Hi BG,

I had a funny thing happen last night I spent a good 2 hours addressing the posts and and all the scriptures you claim support your 12 points on your replies to my posts. This was late before I was about to sleep. I had trouble with the editing so I had to cut a large section out as I wrote most of the post in the forum box and I had to split the reply into a few posts as it was too large.

Anyhow while formatting I accidently copied somethong else minor and lost 2hrs or rebuttal to your last few posts. You can imagine I went to bed after as it was closer to 1.pm my time a little frustrated as I was just about to post before going to sleep as it was all finished.

Anyhow I believe it happened for a reason. I believe God did not want me to take that approach with you or we would be going around in circles.

Instead in the upcoming approach I am only going to provide scripture and let the scripture do the talking that show there is NO MORE ANIMAL SACRIFICES in the NEW Covenant.

This will be my ONLY posting in your thread as I believe I have already coverered all your 12 points in POST # 112; POST #113; POST # 114; POST # 115 and addressed the NEW COVENANT in POST # 116

The following POST will focus on the scriptures of COL 2; HEBREWS and other scriptures from the OLD and NEW Testament that show that that the Mosaic sacrificial laws are fulffilled in Christ under the NEW COVENANT and we are NO LONGER required to keep them.

Now think carefully, I suggest that you read and pray and study the upcoming posts and ask God if your interpretation of the scriptures are correct of not. Your salvation depends on it.

Ok my friend this post is only an introduction of what is to follow. Hope these scriptures are a blessing to you as they have been to me.

LoveGodForever · Feb 16, 2018

PUTTING AN END TO ANIMAL SACRIFICES FOR SIN OFFERINGS AND ORDINANCES POINTING TO CHRIST PART 1/2

COL 2:14-17

COL. 2 [16] Let no man therefore judge you in MEAT, or in DRINK, or in respect of an HOLYDAY, or of the NEW MOON, or of the SABBATH DAY(S) <plural>

The above scripture is used by the “many” to distance themselves from Gods sabbath day. But what is Col.2{16} really talking about. Let scripture interpret scripture.

(1) CONTEXT

v11-13 Shadows of Mosaic laws of circumcision of the new heart in Christ

14, BLOTTING OUT < G1813 ἐξαλείφωexaleipho (ex-a-lei'-fō) v.means to rub out, i.e. obliterate, erase>the HANDWRITING < G5498 χειρόγραφονcheirographon (chei-ro'-gra-fon) n.means
something hand-written (“chirograph”), i.e. a manuscript specially, a legal document > of ORDINANCES < G1378 δόγμαdogma (d̮og'-ma) n. meansordinance;civil, ceremonial or ecclesiasticallaws>that was against us, WHICH WERE AGAINST US, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

v14 reads the handwriting of the ordinances that were against us; God’s LAW written on stone (10 Commandments) are not the handwriting of the ordinances written in the book that were against us. The ORDINANCES referred to here are those written in the Mosaic book of the law that were against us. Not all the book of the law was against us. Those laws that pertained to righteousness were not against us. God’s LAW (10 Commandments) let us know what SIN was if we disobeyed them.

The Ten Commandments are not against us only the statutes and judgement in the Book of the Law in relation to when we sin were (the judgements and penalty for sin the curses for sin).

DEUT 31 [26] Take this Book of the Law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there FOR A WITNESS AGAINST THEE.

DEUT 30 [19] For GOD has said, I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, BLESSINGS AND CURSES: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: [20] That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest OBEY his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

CONTEXT of the 2:16-17 is the CIVIL, CEREMONIAL AND ECCLESIASTIC laws contained in ORDINANCES that were against us. This is referring to the penalty for SIN as well as the fulfillment of the Mosaic laws for remission of sin that all pointed to Jesus (shadow laws). Together these were fulfilled in Christ and nailed to the cross.

MATT 27 [50], Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. [51], And, behold, the VEIL OF THE TEMPLE WAS RENT IN TWO FROM TOP TO BOTTOM; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

ISAIAH 1 [10] Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.[11] To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I AM FULL OF THE BURNT OFFERINGS of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.[12] When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?[13] BRING NO MORE VAIN OBLATIONS; incense is an abomination unto me; THE NEW MOONS AND SABBATHS, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.[14] Your new moons and your APPOINTED FEASTS my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

HEBREWS 10 [7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. [8] Above when he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERING FOR SIN THOU WOULDEST NOT, NEITHER HADST PLEASURE THEREIN; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW; [9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND. [10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. [11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: [12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Hebrews 10 explains exactly what Isaiah 1 was speaking about. He takes away the 1st covenant {the meat and drink offerings} and established the 2nd covenant {the body of Christ}

LUKE 22 [19] And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. [20] Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, THIS CUP IS THE NEW TESTAMENT IN MY BLOOD, which is shed for you.

New testament...blood

HEBREWS 9 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

old covenant...blood of goats.....The meat and drink offerings

HEBREWS 10 [4] FOR IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.[8] Above when he said, sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.

EPHESIANS 2 [15] HAVING ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;[16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

HEBREWS 13 [9] Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be ESTABLISHED WITH GRACE; NOT WITH MEATS, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. [10] We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. [11] For THE BODIES OF THOSE BEASTS, WHOSE BLOOD is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. [12] WHEREFORE JESUS ALSO, THAT HE MIGHT SANCTIFY THE PEOPLE WITH HIS OWN BLOOD, suffered without the gate.

HEBREWS 8 [2] A MINISTER OF THE SANCTUARY, AND OF THE TRUE TABERNACLE, WHICH THE LORD PITCHED AND NOT MAN. [3] For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. [4] For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: [5] WHO SERVES AS AN EXAMPLE AND SHADOW OF THE HEAVENLY THINGS, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. [6] But now hath HE HAS OBTAINED A MORE EXCELLENT MINISTRY, by how much also he is the mediator of a BETTER COVENANT, WHICH WAS ESTABLISHED ON BETTER PROMISES. [7] For if that FIRST COVENANT HAD BEEN FAULTLESS, THEN NO PLACE SHOULD HAVE BEEN SOUGHT FOR A SECOND. [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITHE THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH: [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.

to be continued.....

LoveGodForever · Feb 16, 2018

Continuing....

PUTTING AN END TO ANIMAL SACRIFICES FOR SIN OFFERINGS AND ORDINANCES POINTING TO CHRIST PART 2/2

COL. 2 [16]

(2) SUBJECT MATTER of COL. 2 [16] Let no man therefore judge you in MEAT, or in DRINK, or in respect of an HOLYDAY, or of the NEW MOON, or of the SABBATH DAY(S) <plural>

Compare Col 2:16 with the annual Jewish festivals from the Mosaic laws for remission of sin...

EZEKIEL 45 [17] And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and MEAT offerings, and DRINK offerings, in the FEASTS, and in the NEW MOONS, and in the SABBATHS, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

All CONTEXT and points 1-4 match perfectly. Here is a scripture, same exact order as Col.2 [16], MEAT offerings, and DRINK offerings, FEASTS, NEW MOON, and in the SABBATHS.

No doubt what so ever these 2 scriptures are speaking of the same thing. See how that on those days there was a sin offering made. The blood of Christ is now that offering. Col.2 and Zeke 45 are simply speaking of the meat and drink offerings which were written in the law contained within the ORDINANCES which were to take place on Gods holy days, new moons and His sabbath days.

HEBREWS 13 [9] Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be ESTABLISHED WITH GRACE; NOT WITH MEATS, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. [10] We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. [11] For THE BODIES OF THOSE BEASTS, WHOSE BLOOD is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. [12] WHEREFORE JESUS ALSO, THAT HE MIGHT SANCTIFY THE PEOPLE WITH HIS OWN BLOOD, suffered without the gate.

But now we are no longer under the law of Moses concerning the meat and drink offerings of Gods holy days, new moons and the sabbaths. Jesus fulfilled the law. We are now under grace.

JOHN 6 [53] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. [54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. [55] For MY FLESH IS MEAT INDEED, and MY BLOOD IS DRINK INDEED.

When we let scripture interpret scripture its very clear what Col.2 is speaking about. The meat and drink offerings of those days are no longer to be kept.

NUMBERS 28 [9] And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a MEAT OFFERING, mingled with oil, and the DRINK OFFERING thereof: [10] This is the burnt offering of EVERY SABBATH, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

Theres the meat and drink offerings for the sabbath days that Col.2 [16] was speaking of.

EZEKIEL 46 [6] And in the day of the NEW MOON it shall be a young bullock without blemish, and six lambs, and a ram: they shall be without blemish. [7] And he shall prepare a MEAT OFFERING, an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and for the lambs according as his hand shall attain unto, and an hin of oil to an ephah.

The meat offering for the new moon that was spoken of in Col.2 [16].

LEVITICUS 23 [4] These are THE FEASTS OF THE LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. [5] In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is THE LORD'S PASSOVER. [6] And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread…… [13] And the MEAT OFFERING thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the DRINK OFFERING thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

In all the feast days (holy days) meat and drink offerings were written into the laws of commandments contained in the ordinances. The above scripture points out the holy day of passover when Jesus was crucified.

HEBREWS 9 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.... [9] WHICH WAS A FIGURE for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

The first covenant had ORDINANCES which stood ONLY in meat and drink offerings which were a figure. A shadow

EPH.2 [15] HAVING ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; [16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

EZEKIEL 46 [14] And thou shalt prepare a meat offering for it every morning, the sixth part of an ephah, and the third part of an hin of oil, to temper with the fine flour; a MEAT OFFERING continually by a perpetual ORDINANCE unto the LORD.

HEBREWS 10 [1] For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOWof good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. [3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[4] For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.

Hebrews 10 says it all. The shadow of the law was the offerings (the meat and drink offerings).

NUMBERS 19 [2] This is the ORDINANCE OF THE LAW which the Lord hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:

JOHN 6 [55] For my flesh is MEAT indeed, and my blood is DRINK indeed.

NUMBERS 18 [8] And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, BY AN ORDINANCE for ever.[9] This shall be thine of the most holy things, reserved from the fire: EVERY OBLATION of theirs, EVERY MEAT OFFERING of theirs, and EVERY SIN OFFERING of theirs, and every trespass offering of theirs, which they shall render unto me, shall be most holy for thee and for thy sons.

Above scripture confirms that the offerings are also called oblations

ISAIAH 1 [10] Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.[11] To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I AM FULL OF THE BURNT OFFERINGS of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.[12] When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?[13] BRING NO MORE VAIN OBLATIONS; incense is an abomination unto me; THE NEW MOONS AND SABBATHS, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.[14] Your new moons and your APPOINTED FEASTS my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Bring no more vain oblations in the new moons and the sabbath and feast days. WHY? Because Jesus nailed these offerings (oblations) to the cross.

HEBREWS 10 [7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. [8] Above when he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERING FOR SIN THOU WOULDEST NOT, NEITHER HADST PLEASURE THEREIN; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW; [9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND. [10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. [11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: [12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Hebrews 10 explains exactly what Isaiah 1 was speaking about. He takes away the 1st covenant {the meat and drink offerings} and established the 2nd covenant {the body of Christ}

The new covenant is all about the blood of Christ. Not changing the law....but fulfilling the law

ZECHARIAH 9 [9] Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, THY KING COMETH UNTO THEE: HE IS JUST, AND HAVING SALVATION; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.[10] And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.[11] As for thee also, BY THE BLOOD OF THY COVENANT I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water

Verse 9 definitely prophecies of the coming Jesus. Verse 11, Jesus is called the blood of thy covenant

HEBREWS 12 [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,[24] And to Jesus THE MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT, AND TO THE BLOOD of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

New covenant...blood

LUKE 22 [19] And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. [20] Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, THIS CUP IS THE NEW TESTAMENT IN MY BLOOD, which is shed for you.

New testament...blood

HEBREWS 9 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. [9] Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

old covenant...blood of goats.....The meat and drink offerings

HEBREWS [4] FOR IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:[6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.[7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.[8] Above when he said, sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE TAKETH AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.

He taketh away the first {covenant}, that he may establish the second.

JOHN 6 [53] [54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. [55] For MY FLESH IS MEAT INDEED, and MY BLOOD IS DRINK INDEED.

And there is the 2nd

MATTHEW 5 [17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. [18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus did not come to change or destroy the law. The sabbath is still to be kept. He came to fulfil what was written of Him in the books of the law and to END the Mosaic law for remission of SIN and the penalty of SIN in those who BELIEVE. NO MORE Ceremonial/Levitical/Sacrificial laws and animal sacrifices.

My prayer is that you may consider these scriptures. Thanks my friend it was nice talking to you. What you decide to do now is between you and God.

These posts should be read with POST # 116

BibleGuy · Feb 21, 2018

LoveGodForever said:

Hello everyone,

Finally have time to continue through this thread....I'm now up to a response to Post #116....hooray!

Ok LoveGodForever,

You wrote: "During his incarnation Jesus explicitly honored the Mosaic sacrificial system ( Matt 8:4 ; Mark 1:44 ; Luke 5:14 ; 17:14 ). He lived as a Jew and encouraged others to also keep every "smallest letter" and "least stroke of a pen" ( Matt 5:18 )."

My response: Then we should walk as Jesus walked (1 Jn. 2:6), likewise obeying observable Torah portions (even animal sacrifices, when properly performed), just as Jesus taught the disciples to do (Lk. 6:40).

And remember, Jesus sent forth TORAH-TEACHERS (Mt. 23:34, "grammateus") to represent His Torah-teaching Torah-upholding ministry which applies to all disciples of all nations (Mt. 28:20). This, of course, entails ongoing animal sacrifices for Christians.

Why? Because the pre-crucifixion teachings of Jesus apply to post-crucifixion disciples (Mt. 28:20).

You wrote: "Jesus referred to the cup as "the new covenant in my blood."

My response: And this NEW COVENANT inaugurated by Jesus (Lk. 22:20) entails that TORAH (see "TORAH", Jer. 31) shall be written upon our hearts so that we obey it.

And, Torah entails animal sacrifices, when properly performed.

Therefore, the very New Covenant inaugurated by Jesus leads us to obey the very animal-sacrifice Torah which you (sadly) oppose.

Please stop opposing the law which Jesus intends to be written upon our hearts so that we will OBEY it.

You wrote: "The background is the quotation of the new covenant passage from Jeremiah 31:31-34 in Hebrews 8, to which the writer will return in Hebrews 10:16-17."

My response: And these VERY SCRIPTURES entail that TORAH (which, of course, entails animal sacrifices) should be written upon our hearts so that we obey it.

Please stop opposing the Torah of the covenants in which you participate.

You wrote: "The sacrificial system for the remission of sins were shadows fulfilled in Christ."

My response: Indeed. FULFILLED, but NOT terminated. And this shadow function continued AFTER the resurrection of Christ in both the 1st century (Col. 2:17), and it shall continue into the future as well (Eze. 40-47; Dt. 30; Jer. 33; Is. 66; Mal. 3; etc.), just as the prophets guarantee.

You wrote: 'The Greek words used here is handwriting G5498 χειρόγραφον; cheirographon; which means; hand written legal document which is combined with ordinance G1378 δόγμα dogma dog'-mah From the base of G1380; which means; civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law: - decree;"

My response: I already showed you (in a previous post) that G1378 does NOT refer to Torah anywhere in the Bible.

I repeat: I already showed that G1378 does NOT refer to any "civil, ceremonial, or ecclesiastical" Torah law.

In Col. 2, G1378 refers to the certificate of debt (i.e., G5498), not to the Torah itself.

Therefore, TORAH was not nailed to the cross. Rather, the CERTIFICATE OF DEBT (G5498) was nailed to the cross.

Not a shred of Torah was cancelled or terminated. Rather, our DEBT (incurred by virtue of our sinful violation of Torah) was nailed to the cross.

You wrote: "(1) God’s Law (10 commandments) pointed out what sin was and the penalty of sin which is death. It was never a cure for sin in the Old Testament as well as in the New. It only gives a knowledge of what sin is and righteousness (right doing) (Rom 3:20; 1John 3:4; Rom 6:23; Ps 119:172)."

My response: Again, as stated in my earlier post, nothing in these verses (Rom. 3:20; 1 Jn. 3:4; Rom. 6;23; Ps. 119:172) states that MERELY the 10 Commandments pointed out what sin was and the penalty of sin which is death. You just made that up! That's your eisegesis skewing you astray again.

Nothing in these verses (Rom. 3:20; 1 Jn. 3:4; Rom. 6;23; Ps. 119:172) statest that MERELY the 10 Commandments give a knowledege of what sin is and righteousness. Again, you just made that up! Your eisegesis skews you astray.

Furthermore, Jesus cites the authority of the Psalms repeatedly, proving they APPLY to us disciples! And Ps. 119 AFFIRMS that the TORAH (not merely the 10 commandments!) should be obeyed. Therefore, Jesus' use of the Psalms AFFIRMS that His disciples should obey Torah (which, of course, includes animal-sacrifice Torah, when properly performed).

So the very passage you cite supports my position, and disconfirms yours.

Likewise, Paul says sin is violation of the LAW (Rom. 3:20; Rom. 7:7), not merely violation of the 10 commandments! Again, you are just PRETENDING that "law" in Rom. 3:20 and Rom. 7:7 MERELY refers to the 10 commandments (rather than the entire law of Moses), and you've given no Scriptural support for that claim.

You wrote: "(2) The laws of Moses was the second set of laws and included all the civil, ceremonial, and ecclesiastical laws."

My response: WHERE does any Scripture state that the "laws of Moses" exclude the 10 commandments?

Nowhere. You just made that up.

WHERE does Scripture state that the "laws of Moses" ONLY include the "civil, ceremonial, and ecclesiastical laws" ?

Nowhere. Again, you just made that up.

WHERE does Scripture clearly define the specific Torah portions which comprise "civil" or "ceremonial" or "ecclesiastical" laws?

Nowhere.

Please stop that.

God's commands are CONTAINED in the law of Moses (1 Ki. 2:3).

The laws of Moses CAME from the authority of God Himself who COMMANDED that the law be obeyed by the people (e.g., Dt. 1:3).

So your division between "law of Moses" and "10 commandments" is unscriptural and unjustified.

That's another place where your position falls apart.

Also, John tells us to love God through OBEDIENCE to the COMMANDS (1 Jn. 5:3). And God's commands are found throughout the LAW OF MOSES (Dt. 1:3; Dt. 32:46; etc.), not merely in the 10 Commandments.

Thus, John (1 Jn. 5:3) also leads us to obey Torah commands, which of course entails obedience to animal-sacrifice laws when properly performed.

So now you have set yourself against John's teaching (1 Jn. 5:3) as well.

Yikes! Time to revise your viewpoint and bring it into alignment with Scripture.

You wrote: "These laws could not tell you what sin was this was the job of God’s Law..."

My response: Really? Is violation of Lev. 18 sinful? OF COURSE! And this is true, even though Lev. 18 is NOT part of the 10 commandments.

Therefore, the Law of Moses IN GENERAL defines sin, not MERELY the 10 commandments.

You wrote: "Why were the ceremonial laws of Moses (handwriting of ordinances) nailed to the cross?"

My response: They were NOT nailed to the cross. Read again! Col. 2 states that the certificate of debt (G5498) was nailed to the cross, not the Torah itself.

The Torah is NOT the debt.

The TORAH was not nailed to the cross.

Our DEBT was nailed to the cross.

The dogma (G1378) refers to the debt (G5498), not to the Torah itself.

NOWHERE in the Bible does G1378 refer to the Torah itself.

I need you to account for these considerations.

Until then, your position remains inadequately supported.

You wrote: "Colossians 2:14 is the context of Colossians 2:16-17."

My response: And, Col. 2:14 does NOT entail termination of any shred of Torah, as I've shown.

Furthremore, Col. 2:17 states that the shadow IS (not "was") a pointer to greater realities in Christ. Therefore, the shadow CONTINUES to function.

You wrote: "The context is that all the ceremonial laws of Moses pointing to the plan of salvation and Jesus have been fulfilled and nailed to the cross and along with our sins, if we accept Jesus as our true Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the world (John 1:29). "

My response: No. Your claim is based upon a faulty interpretation of G1378 and G5498 in Col. 2:14, along with a bogus division of TORAH into "law of Moses" and "10 commandments". I've already shown why your claim falls apart, given these considerations.

You wrote: "We are no longer under the Old Covenant laws of Moses."

My response: So Jesus was just joking when he said that pre-crucifixion teachings apply to disciples of all nations? (Mt. 28:20). I don't think so.

That's why Paul says we should OBEY God's commands (1 Cor. 7:19), which of course are contained throughout the Law of Moses (Dt. 1:3; 6:25; 32:46), not merely in the 10 commandments.

You have now set yourself against the teachings of Paul, Jesus, John, the Prophets, and the Torah itself, and Jesus gave strong warnings against lawlessness (Mt. 5:19; 7:21-23; 13:41-42), and these warnings CONTINUE to apply to all disciples (Mt. 28:20).

I urge you to repent with respect to the Torah portions you have wrongly opposed.

You wrote: "We are no longer under the Old Covenant laws of Moses. These do not include God’s Law which is forever (Ecc 3:14)."

My response: Yikes! Eisegesis again! WHERE does Ecc. 3:14 state that the 10 commandments (but NOT the "law of Moses") will last forever?

Nowhere! You just made that up again.

And this VERY VERSE (Ecc. 3:14) states that we should FEAR God (Ecc. 3:14). WHAT is the proper means of fearing God (according to Scripture)? Answer: by OBEYING ALL THE LAWS and commands and statutes and ways (Dt. 6:2,24; 8:6; 10:12; 13:4; 17:19 etc.) of God, NOT MERELY THE 10 COMMANDMENTS!

So the very passage you cited (Ecc. 3:14) again argues AGAINST your position, when taken into the broader context of Scripture.

Again, I urge you to repent.

You have misused Scripture.

You have engaged in eisegesis.

You have artificially (and without justification) divided the Torah into segments.

You have given (without justification) different applications of the different segments you have artificially constructed.

You've opposed the Law of Moses itself.

You've opposed the prophets.

You've opposed the teachings of the Messiah and apostles.

Yikes!

We can be gracious and forgive your past misunderstandings...but now let's get on with CORRECTING yourself with ALL Scripture (2 Ti. 3:16), and that includes animal-sacrifice laws and other Torah portions which you have tragically opposed, despite the warning of even the Messiah Himself (Mt. 5:19; 7:21-23; 13:41-42).

You wrote: "The ceremonial laws and ordinances for remission of SIN as well as our SINS were nailed to the cross in Jesus our true sacrifice under the NEW COVENANT."

My response: You've got LOTS of work to do! Until you justify your position against my multifaceted critique, your position remains unjustified.

And the NEW COVENANT entails that TORAH (see "TORAH" in Jer. 31) is written upon our hearts so that we will obey it, yet you oppose obedience to portions of that very Torah!

Yikes!

Please get into alignment with Scripture. (and of course, please correct any mistakes you might see in my position as well....thanks!)

You wrote: "To do so would be to deny Christs sacrifice to which the Mosaic sacrificial system was a shadow pointing to Jesus."

My response: There is no Scripture that says that ongoing animal sacrifices would "deny Christs sacrifice to which the Mosaic sacrificial system was a shadow pointing to Jesus."

You just made that up. AND:

1. Paul CONTINUED sacrificial activity (Ac. 21).
2. Animal-sacrificing priests were disciples (Ac. 6).
3. THOUSANDS of 1st-century disciples were zealous for Torah (which entails animal sacrifices, Ac. 21).
4. Paul condoned a vow to prove he obeyed Torah (Ac. 21), which entails animal sacrifices.
5. Paul paid for 4 others to also take a sacrifice-laden vow to prove obedience to Torah (Ac. 21), which entails animal sacrifices.
6. The Old Covenant did NOT yet pass away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of Hebrews (Heb. 8:13), thereby proving the Old Covenant AND New Covenant function simultaneously, even with ongoing animal sacrifices.
7. Moses guarantees animal sacrifices in the future (Dt. 30).
8. Jeremiah guarantees animal sacrifices in the future (Jer. 33).
9. Ezekiel guarantees animal sacrifices in the future (Eze. 40-47).
10. Isaiah guarantees animal sacrifices in the future (Is. 66).

And on and on and on....

So, I don't see any merit to your position.

And I see LOTS of Scriptural support for the claim that we Christians will participate in animal sacrifices which will (and should) resume in the future, in obedience to the Torah of the covenants in which we grafted-in Israelites participate, and in fulfillment of the many yet-unfulfilled prophecies which guarantee this restoration.

Blessings....

BibleGuy · Feb 21, 2018

Angela53510 said:

Hi there!

I also hope everyone takes time to verify that I have disconfirmed LoveGodForever's position in light of the many Scriptural objections I've raised against it.

Look forward to hearing from you as I read further through this thread! (I'm only at about post #117 right now...)

regards...

Deade · Feb 21, 2018

In case you're interested, I just posted a blog about a related subject. DIETARY LAWS: Why and when did God establish dietary laws/ordinances?

BibleGuy · Feb 21, 2018

notuptome said:

Hi there!

Sounds pretty good to me, Roger.

Although, if Is. 65:20 occurs during the millennium, then human death will still occur during the millennium (evidently unlike the garden before the fall).

regards...

BibleGuy · Feb 21, 2018

garee said:

Hello,

You wrote: "The time of reformation has come."

My response: I'd say the time of the restitution of all things (as spoken by the prophets, Ac. 3:21) is yet future. That's why Jesus is still in heaven awaiting a future return to earth.

And what does Jesus return to do? RESTORE the animal-sacrifice-laden covenant with Levi (Mal. 3:1-4) so that the Levites may again function in the fullness of their prophesied future activity, as guaranteed in the Davidic Covenant (Jer. 33).

Thus it's no surprise that Peter states that Jesus is the prophet like unto Moses (Ac. 3:22). That is, just as Moses upheld obedience to all Torah, likewise Jesus upholds obedience to all Torah (which, of course, entails animal sacrifices).

But this restitution of animal sacrifices is yet future.

You wrote: "The shadows have become sight..."

My response: AND, when we behold the fullness of the tree, does the shadow cease to exist? Of course not. The shadows ARE (present tense! Col. 2:17) an ongoing function even during the New Covenant era.

You wrote: "Christian is the new name God named His bride the church."

My response: No. The Bible does not state that the name of the "church" is "Christian". Rather, the CHURCH (Gr. "ekklesia") is ISRAEL, and has existed since at least Sinai (Ac. 7:38). See, also, "ekklesia" in the LXX, where the people of Israel are often assembled as the church ("ekklesia").

So then, the CHURCH is ISRAEL.

We Christians are rooted in Christ as fellow ISRAELITES.

We partake in a New Covenant between God and ISRAEL (Jer. 31), thus we MUST be Israelites!

You wrote: "Why install another shadow by mending the rent veil."

My response: It's not my job to explain WHY God's prophets assure us of the restoration of animal sacrifices. But they do assure us that animal sacrifices are yet future (Jer. 33; Dt. 30; Eze. 40-47; Mal. 4; etc.)

And, Paul had no problem participating in the "shadowy" animal sacrifices (Ac. 21).

We should imitate Paul (1 Cor. 11:1), and likewise participate in such activity, when properly performed.

Jesus also affirmed the validity of animal sacrifices (by quoting Is. 56:7), because animal sacrifices SHOULD occur in the temple...and guess what Jesus comes to rebuild? The TEMPLE! (Zec. 6). That's where animal sacrifices will again occur.

Remember, Jesus' pre-crucifixion teachings apply to US as His disciples (Mt. 28:20). Is. 56:7 is, therefore, NOT terminated. Thus, animal sacrifices shall be RESTORED.

You wrote: "What would be the purpose of another demonstration in the flesh?"

My response: A reminder of sins (Heb. 10:3).

And, a pointer to the greater substance in Christ (Col. 2:17).

And, an opportunity to again fully obey Torah as prophesied (Dt. 30:1-8).

And, an opportunity to make a public declaration via a Nazirite vow (e.g., Ac. 21)....

And an opportunity to demonstrate to the nations our great WISDOM as Israelites (Dt. 4:5-8)....etc....

You wrote: "God is not a man as us, what would it prove if the veil was mended seeing we walk by faith the unseen and not by sight as that seen?"

My response: It would prove that God's prophets do not lie.

It would prove that God's prophets are not false prophets.

It would prove that God's prophets guarantee future events (animal sacrifices, Jer. 33; Eze. 40-47; Dt. 30:1-8; Mal. 4; etc.).

It would prove that Jesus is indeed the one to restore the covenant with Levi (Mal. 3).

It would prove that the future greater fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant is indeed going to become a reality (Jer. 33).

It would prove that we Israelites have returned to the land of Israel in conjunction with that restoration (Dt. 30:1-8).

And on and on and on....

Sure, we walk by faith. But that's no proof that animal sacrifices will not be restored according to the prophets.

The time of the restitution of all things is yet future.

blessings...

BibleGuy · Feb 21, 2018

Depleted said:

Hello,

You wrote: "While an EMP can destroy electronics, it will not make electronics obsolete. It would make us need to make new electronics and a new grid for the electricity."

My response: No guarantee that will be possible. After all, we do NOT know what the mysterious "signs in the sun, moon, and stars" of the future will be (Lk. 21:25). Therefore, there is NO guarantee that civilization (at that time) will be electronically functional. After all, these "signs" might routinely destroy electronic functionality, rendering it useless. We just don't know.

You wrote: "You also seem to think Jesus' sacrifice will become "obsolete" some time in the future. Noper! He's not electronics."

My response: ??? Of course Jesus is not electronics.

And I do not maintain that Jesus' sacrifice will become "obsolete".

You wrote: "You're preaching a lesser-than-God god, where Man has to make good on his own salvation. Again, if Man saves himself, he was never in danger of being unsaved to need to be saved. What you preach is anti-God, anti-Bible."

My response: Don't even know what you're talking about.

God is absolutely supreme, not "lesser".

Man does not save himself by faithless works.

Man needs to be saved.

I am not anti-God or anti-Bible.

You're dishing out a lot of unjustified accusations.

No more fake news please.

Stick to the facts.

regards....

BibleGuy · Feb 21, 2018

PennEd said:

Hello,

Animal sacrifices can be (for us!) an opportunity to make an acceptable offering on the altar (Is. 56:7), as Jesus affirms (Mt. 21:13). And Jesus' teachings apply to us all (Mt. 28:20).

Animal sacrifices can be (for us!) an opportunity to again obey ALL Torah, as prophesied by Moses (Dt. 30:1-8).

Animal sacrifices can be (for us!) a shadow that points to greater substance in Christ (Col. 2).

Animal sacrifices can be (for us!) a reminder of sins (Heb. 10:3).

Animal sacrifices can be (for us!) an opportunity to make a Nazirite vow (Ac. 21).

Animal sacrifices can be (for us!) an opportunity to make a public declaration (Ac. 21).

Animal sacrifices can be (for us!) an opportunity for the priests among us to function properly (Ac. 6).

Animal sacrifices can be (for us!) an opportunity to see Jesus in action, restoring the covenant with Levi (Mal. 3:1-4).

Animal sacrifices can be (for us!) a sin offering (Eze. 43:25) which of course points to the need for the ultimate permanent sin offering which is Christ, Himself, sacrificed for us.

So, you wrote: "I think virtually everyone agrees..."

My response: But alas...truth is not determine by vote or by prevailing opinion.

Truth is found in the Bible, even if prevailing opinion remains uninformed.

And, why assume that restoration of animal sacrifices violates Hebrews 10?

I'm simply choosing to BELIEVE the prophets which guarantee such restoration.

And Hebrews 10:16 reminds us that Torah should be written upon our hearts so that we will obey it.

And what does Torah require? Animal sacrifices!

So Heb. 10 SUPPORTS my position.

blessings...

BibleGuy · Feb 21, 2018

Depleted said:

Hello,

Not sure your serious, or just a troll.

The Bible is not MERELY about God.

It is ALSO about people.

And ISRAEL plays a central role in the story of the Bible.

And ALL New Covenant participants are ISRAELITES (Jer. 31).

Therefore, we Christians are ISRAELITE participants in the Torah-laden covenants between God and ISRAEL.

And what does this Torah require? Animal sacrifices!

So, your comments are DEEPLY uninformed.

Not sure your serious, though.

So maybe I should just ignore your comments?

regards....

BibleGuy · Feb 21, 2018

Depleted said:

Very well then...

You go ahead and believe whatever you like about Teddy Bears.

I will go ahead and believe the prophets (Eze. 40-47; Jer. 33; Dt. 30; Mal. 3) which GUARANTEE restoration of animal sacrifices.

regards...

BibleGuy · Feb 21, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Your story is too short!

You forgot to account for the prophets which guarantee restoration of animal sacrifices (Mal. 3; Jer. 33; Dt. 30; Eze. 40-47).

You forgot to account for the Christian role in this restoration.

Anyway....just saying.

regards...

BibleGuy · Feb 21, 2018

PlainWord said:

When did Eze. 40-47 and Jer. 33 and Dt. 30 and Mal. 3 and Zec. 6 and Is. 66 all take place?

Of course, they have NOT yet occurred.

But that's the point. They are FUTURE prophecies.

Regards...

ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

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