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Thread: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    Luke 21:22 because these are days of vengeance,
    so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
    So you throw away these other scriptures, of the Future Kingdom on earth too.

    Saints shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, (Daniel 7:18)
    We shall inherit the earth. (Psalms 25:13-22:26, 37:9, 22,29) us not flesh and blood.
    -

    It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name
    of the city from that day shall be, The Lord is there. (Ezekiel 48:35)

    17At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and
    all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem:
    neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

    Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go
    no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city
    of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God:
    and I will write upon him my new name.

    And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt
    be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name. (Isaiah 62:2)

    -Jerusalem, the future headquarters city of the Earth (Haggai 2:6-8)
    -Land Beneath Sea Reclaimed, converted to Jerusalem(Isaiah 60:5, 11:15).
    World’s gold and silver reserves under the seas for beautiful decorations there.
    -Gods latter house shall be greater than of the former (Haggai 2:9)
    -Jerusalem is uniquely describes as being “compact together,” tall 122:3

    -Desolate land shall be tilled - will be like the garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:34-35)
    -Build the waste cities-fresh produce-drink there own wine-farming (Amos 9:14)
    -Waste cities “filled with flocks of men” being very social(Ezekiel 36:36-37-38)
    -Superhighways between major cities (Isaiah 19:23)

    -Cities being crime-free , dwell safely-none be made afried (Ezekiel 34:28-Micah 4:4)
    -No more Violence, nor wasting, nor destruction (Isaiah 60:18)
    -Cities overflow with prosperity (Zechariah 1:17) -Equitable property distribution
    - every man shall own his vine and fig tree (Micah 4:4-Lev25) and

    -“Joy and gladness-thanksgiving-the voice of melody(Isaiah 51:3)(Jeremiah 33:10-11)
    -Where old men and old women dwell -full of boys and girls playing (Zechariah 8:4-5)
    -No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up (Isaiah 35:9 )
    -There will be Shepherds and local animal husbandry (Jer. 33:12)

    -Pure Water—Fertile Deserts where trees grow (Isaiah 35)
    -No more hunger-He will raise up a plant of renown (Ezekiel 34:29)
    -A new sharp threshing instrument -the mountains made small(Isaiah 41:14-16)
    -If any thrist and seek water, the God of Israel will not forsake them. (ver 17-18)

    Trees planted and growing-consider and understand that the [Eternal] hath
    done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it” . (verse 19-20)

    --All will speak the same language, a pure language from God (Zephaniah 3:9).
    God will also destroy the idols, (Ezekiel 30:13, Micah 5:10-15, Zechariah 13:2).
    Thy graven images also will I cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst
    of thee; and thou shalt no more worship the work of thine hands.

    The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. (Isaiah 14:7)
    All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name.
    Psalms 66:4 -God has spoken it, and He is not one to go back on His word (Isaiah 55:11)
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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by BibleGuy View Post
    Hello, the very passage you quoted SUPPORTS my position:

    1. The Old Covenant (not OT!) is READY (Gr. "engoos", Heb. 8:13) to disappear.
    2. If something is ready to disappear, then it did NOT yet disappear.
    3. The Old Covenant did NOT yet disappear as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.
    4. The Old Covenant and New Covenant now function simultaneously.

    WHICH OF THESE FOUR PREMISES DO YOU REJECT? AND WHY?

    Unless you give us a good answer, the force of my Scripturally-grounded reasoning stands.

    AND, it follows that we should not be surprised to see Paul CONDONING sacrificial activity (Ac. 21) AFTER his conversion.

    We should not be surprised to see thousands of 1st-century disciples CONDONING sacrificial activity (Ac. 21) AFTER the resurrection.

    We should not be surprised to see that MANY disciples were sacrifice-performing priests (Ac. 6) AFTER the resurrection.

    We are not surprised to see that the SHADOW-FUNCTION of the law persists (present tense in Col. 2:17) into the New-Covenant era.



    CONCLUSION: I just cited many passages which confirm that the OT did NOT come to an end in the first century.

    In fact, Heb. 8:13 confirms just the opposite! It is READY to disappear (but it has NOT yet disappeared).

    Can you engage the actual substance of my position stated here?

    Thanks...

    So, Hebrews 8:13 says what?

    "When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear." Hebrews 8:13

    You claim it still has not disappeared, but the fact is that it completely disappeared in AD 70, when Jerusalem was raised. The reason it had not disappeared when Hebrews was written, was that they were still sacrificing animals for sin in the Temple. BUT, then it came down. In 70AD! Historical fact!

    So, no more animal sacrifices. And here is the CONTEXT of Hebrews 8!

    "Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We have such a high priest, one who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, a minister in the sanctuary and TRUE TABERNACLE, that the Lord, not man, set up" Hebrews 8:1

    "But now Jesus has obtained a superior ministry, since the covenant that he mediates is also better and is enacted on better promises.
    7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, no one would have looked for a second one." Hebrews 8:6-7

    Read the whole chapter, and the whole book. You are completely off base in your posts. I tried to post whole chapters, and you didn't respond, Bibleguy, so now just verses, although anyone can read the chapter in any version of the Bible, and find the truth. (Try Biblegateway.com if you want to compare versions! They all say the same thing!)

    And so interesting, a "Bibleguy" that claims to believe the Bible, but doesn't actually post it. Just a bunch of addresses, probably all pulled out of context. I was looking to see if he used the KJV, but, apparently he uses no versions, just his own weird opinions, not backed up by the actual verses, just addresses, with the result of not understanding the Bible verses.

    Saying you believe the Bible, and missing that we don't need sacrifices anymore? Very strange. So, how many times have you read the whole Bible, from cover to cover? Let me tell you, you will be surprised to find out how you have twisted the bible, when you actually read things in context, and see that the old covenant has been fulfilled, and there is no need for sacrifices in a newly rebuilt temple. The only high priest we need is Jesus, in the heavenly sanctuary.

    "Therefore since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest incapable of sympathizing with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in every way just as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us confidently approach the throne of grace to receive mercy and find grace whenever we need help." Hebrews 4:14-16

    Please comment on the verses, don't just brag on about believing the Bible, the entire Bible. You don't use the Bible at all in your posts. You counter with addresses. I would show you the Greek or Hebrew say, but there is no need! Any English version says it all, if you read it in context. In other words, all the verses, not just a few you read on a website and are throwing around without any knowledge or sense of who Jesus is, what he came to do, and where he is now! On the throne, King of Kings and Lord of Lords!

    "to obey this command without fault or failure until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ 15 —whose appearing the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, will reveal at the right time. 16 He alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honour and eternal power! Amen." 1 Tim. 7:14-16
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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Musicus View Post
    I'll give it a go. I'm not going through all of these right now, don't really see a need, but here's what I see going on in #1. Moses is reciting the covenant shortly after the exodus. In Deut 29:18 he starts to describe what will happen if they (the Israelites) break the covenant. In ch. 30 he describes them crying out to God and God forgiving them, restoration, etc. It already happened, many times. Each time one of the prophets said Israel was going to break the covenant they did, then cried out to God and God restored everything. All in the past.

    If you want to go through all 12 of your examples, sure, but in the end there is no further need for animal sacrifices and such, because of the work Jesus did on the cross. That's why it's called a new covenant, right?
    Hey there Musicus,

    Thanks for joining the chat!

    I was ok...but then you said: "All in the past."

    And that's the point I'm hoping to bring up here. Dt. 30:1-8 was NOT ever fulfilled in the past.

    Thus, it MUST be fulfilled in the future.

    And, Dt. 30:1-8 entails a future return of ALL Israelites to the land of Israel to again obey 100% of Torah (which, thus, entails a restoration of animal sacrifices).

    And yes, Jesus' work on the cross is the ultimate sacrifice. Absolutely!

    But the shadow CONTINUES to function, even after we behold the beauty of a tree in all its fulness.

    Thus, Paul condones sacrificial activity AFTER his conversion (Ac. 21).
    Thousands of 1st-century disciples condone sacrificial activity AFTER the Resurrection (Ac. 21).
    Many disciples were sacrifice-performing priests even AFTER the resurrection (Ac. 6).
    Jesus comes to RESTORE the covenant with Levi (Mal. 3).
    Zec. 14 and Eze. 40-47 and Dt. 30:1-8 will be fulfilled in the future (because they have not yet occurred), thus guaranteeing restoration of animal sacrifices in the future.

    And the NEW Covenant brings the SAME TORAH (see "TORAH" in Jer. 31) into our very hearts. So Torah is ESSENTIAL to the New Covenant, and sacrifices are essential to full Torah-obedience.

    Thus sacrifices and the New Covenant are CONSISTENT.

    Anyway, just wanted to address some of these points.

    Thanks....

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    You are off to a bad start with all the premises in the opening post - for a start all the OT came to an end in the 1st century AD according to Hebrews:

    Heb 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

    Heb 9:1 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.

    What you are trying to state is that those 1st covenant regulations that were made obsolete somehow become un-obsolete
    I would also stress the word "had", for those who think the first covenant is still valid or actual.
    Do not be worried about many things - only one thing is needed (Lk 10:41-42).

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel8 View Post
    Well whether or not anyone thinks it a good thing or a bad thing, I would just point out again that animal sacrifice still goes on actually. I guess it is kind of a simpleton's argument, but basically you can't really resume something that never actually stopped.
    well...ok!

    But I actually was thinking of animal sacrifices on the altar, even in the temple, performed according to Torah regulations by Levites...that sort of thing....not just animal sacrifices in general anywhere in the world.

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    That's just poor apologetics for a failed theology ED.

    All the physical/natural things of Israel including the nation itself where are shadows of the reality - once the spiritual came with Christ there is no purpose or need for the physical as Paul stated:

    1 Cor 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

    The order, natural ----> spiritual

    What the op is saying is, natural ----> spiritual -----> natural.
    Problem is, that same Paul condoned sacrifices AFTER his conversion (Ac. 21).

    So, I don't think your position is fully consistent with the Pauline Scriptural data.

    regards...

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    The New covenant was an Old covenant promise which has been fulfilled negating the old covenant conditions for a return to the physical land in Deut 30.

    Deu 30:8 And you shall again obey the LORD, and observe all His commandments which I command you today.

    The things "which I command you today" passed away in the 1st century AD, therefore toclaim Deu 30 is still active is an anachronism.

    Abraham sought the heavenly country not a dirt based city and temple.

    Heb 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    There is no "future" redeemed Israel:

    Isa 65:15 “You will leave your name for a curse to My chosen ones, And the Lord GOD will slay you. But My servants will be called by another name.
    Your position is immediately contradicted by the following chapter (Is. 66:20-21) where FUTURE ISRAELITES are called SONS OF ISRAEL, and where some (in the future!!!) will function as priests/Levites who (of course!) perform animal sacrifices.

    So, whatever the "new name" is, it's obviously consistent with CONTINUING to reference future Israelites as SONS OF ISRAEL.

    CONCLUSION: There IS a future for redeemed Israel, as I've now shown.

    In fact, Is. 60:12 shows that every nation that does not serve future Israel will be destroyed.

    That has NOT yet happened!
    Last edited by BibleGuy; February 9th, 2018 at 05:47 PM.
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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by BibleGuy View Post
    Problem is, that same Paul condoned sacrifices AFTER his conversion (Ac. 21).

    So, I don't think your position is fully consistent with the Pauline Scriptural data.

    regards...
    Paul made an offering not a sacrifice - Paul's actions have to based on his position of being all things to all men:

    1 Cor 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more..

    1 Cor 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

    1 Cor 9:22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.

    Your use of this to establish your position is specious at best.
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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by BibleGuy View Post
    Your position is immediately contradicted by the following chapter (Is. 66:20-21) where FUTURE ISRAELITES are called SONS OF ISRAEL, and where some (in the future!!!) will function as priests/Levites who (of course!) perform animal sacrifices.

    So, whatever the "new name" is, it's obviously consistent with CONTINUING to reference future Israelites as SONS OF ISRAEL.

    CONCLUSION: There IS a future for redeemed Israel, as I've now shown.

    In fact, Is. 60:12 shows that every nation that does not serve future Israel will be destroyed.

    That has NOT yet happened!


    What's he gonna call them 3rd Templites, Millenniumites..
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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Ok, you obviously need the Greek. Most modern versions don't bring out the Perfect tense in the first two words of Hebrews 8:13. And again, people should not make doctrine unless they can read and understand Greek. Certainly, the English adequately explains to most of us, what this verse means. But, because you are special Bibleguy, I will go through the Greek, to try and help you see the error of your ways!

    "ἐν τῷ λέγειν Καινὴν πεπαλαίωκεν τὴν πρώτην, τὸ δὲ παλαιούμενον καὶ γηράσκον ἐγγὺς ἀφανισμοῦ."

    The NLT does capture a bit of the tense in the first part of the verse, which is so important for the exegesis of this verse

    "When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:13 NLT

    πεπαλαίωκεν - (pepalaioken) παλαιόω Perfect Indicative Active 3rd Person Singular - to declare or treat as old or obsolete. (the subject of this verb, which is not written, is God who is the subject of the quote from Jeremiah 31.) Perfect implies a completed action in the past, with consequences in the present. Legally, the person who made a covenant or testament could change or annul it. According to Hebrews, God established the first covenant, and he has replaced it with a new one. He is the speaker of the oracle in Jeremiah 31, (quoted after v. 13), thus the one who called the new covenant "new." (Καινὴν)

    τὴν πρώτην - the first. The first one has been made obsolete. What are the on-going aspects of the first covenant being obsolete in the present? Well, that well, is where a totally new and different covenant follows it.

    γηράσκον ἐγγὺς- in whichγηράσκον is a Present Active Participle 3rd person singular, meaning, to grow old, and ἐγγὺς means "near."

    The language used in the Greek, points to a new act of God, he "has made the first one obsolete." To characterize the the first covenant in this way, points to its weakness and ineffectiveness.

    παλαιούμενον - (palaiomenon) from παλαιόω from Present Passive Participle, 3rd person singular. (Again referring to God.) The final phrase, using Palaioo, the same verb used above, can signify hide, make unseen, or disappear, but when used with the noun ἀφανισμοῦ ( aphanismou - Genitive Masc. Singular) suggests utter destruction and abolition, and was used in the LXX when God destroyed the enemies in the Promised Land (Deut. 7:2) Josephus uses the word of cities that disappeared by destruction.

    Given the author of Hebrew's understanding of the diction of the LXX, he has likely employed the word in a similar sense "the first covenant is not only old and weak, it is destined for imminent destruction." Where does the "immanent" come from, besides the inferences from Deuteronomy? Well, from the word
    ἐγγὺς which does NOT mean a far distant time, but close to now, near!

    So, the Old Covenant was old, decayed, weak, and about to be destroyed. Although we do not know exactly when this was written, it was likely before the destruction of the temple and the fall of Jerusalem. So, "near"
    ἐγγὺς
    does not refer to a time 2000 years in the future. That is to do a horrible injustice to the text.

    Instead, for the author of Hebrews, the old covenant was near its end, as soon as this was spoken. It had passed its "use by" date, its demise was a foregone conclusion.

    That is why people who do not know Greek should not attempt to make doctrine, as you have done. The Old Covenant is gone, there was no "future" time, but instead, it was about to be totally destroyed in a time that was near, to be replaced totally by the New Covenant. That time was the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, when sacrifices were ended!

    PS Ok, Lynn, that took a while! Much harder to exegete one verse, than just copy and paste a whole chapter.


    Last edited by Angela53510; February 9th, 2018 at 05:56 PM.
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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by BibleGuy View Post
    Hello Angela,

    Nice to meet you.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

    Thank you for sharing Scripture too. And I agree with every Scripture you cited.

    I agree with every Scripture in ALL the Bible.

    That's why I also agree with the prophets which guarantee restoration of future animal sacrifices.

    You gave us no reason to disagree with the yet-unfulfilled-prophecies of the prophets.

    So, you haven't really justified your position against mine.

    And, am I a "Hebrew Roots" person? Answer: I am a BIBLEGUY! I go with the Bible.

    Moreover, let's be nice...and stop accusing of me of things you don't even know. I've read the New Testament MANY times. And I've thoroughly documented my position in hundreds of pages of text consistent with BOTH testaments. So it's quite silly of you to suppose I "forgot to read the New Testament".

    Hmmm....you're not showing signs of being a genuine truth-seeker. Please be careful...for your own sake.

    I know it's stressful when people challenge you! But that's ok. It's part of the growth process. Let's take a deep breath and settle down and focus on the evidence at hand.

    Now, I AGREE Jesus' sacrifice is the ultimate sacrifice. So stop implying my position entails that Jesus' sacrifice was for naught.

    And:

    1. Paul condoned sacrificial activity AFTER his conversion (Ac. 21).
    2. Jesus condoned sacrificial activity during his ministry, and His teachings APPLY to ALL DISCIPLES (Mt. 28:20)
    3. Thousands of 1st-century disciples had NO PROBLEM participating in sacrificial activity (Ac. 21)
    4. MANY disciples were sacrifice-performing priests even AFTER the resurrection (Ac. 6).

    So, it's clear that YOU have a problem with the idea of ongoing animal sacrifices.

    But Scripture is OK with it.

    In fact, Heb. 8:13 confirms that the Old Covenant is READY to pass away (implying it had not yet passed away as of the New-Covenant-era time of the writing of the book of Hebrews.)

    Therefore, your claim that we changed from Old Covenant to New Covenant is incorrect. Rather, BOTH covenants now function simultaneously, and neither is presently terminated (as I've shown).

    You wrote: "The Church is the New Covenant."

    My response: ??? The "church" is a people-group. The New Covenant is an agreement between God and ISRAEL (Jer. 31).

    Let's be careful in our thinking.

    You wrote: "...
    it is NOT God’s plan to sacrifice animals
    "

    My response: So God was just joking in Zec. 14 and Eze. 40-47 and Dt. 30:1-8 and Jer. 33 and Mal. 3 regarding the animal sacrifices to occur in that future time?

    Of course not! Please adjust your position to be consistent with Scripture.

    You wrote: "
    I hope he will stay around and read the posts and find Jesus
    "

    My response: Are you writing to me? Or to someone else?

    And, I hope you learn that Jesus comes to rebuild the temple (Zec. 6:12-13) which should be a house of prayer for all nations (Mk. 11:17) in which offerings and sacrifices on the altar are acceptable (Is. 56:7) when Jesus RESTORES the sacrifice-performing duties of the ongoing covenant with Levi (Mal. 3:1-4).

    You wrote: "
    There is no need for sacrifices ever."

    My response: Please take the time to look up the Scriptures I've cited which disconfirm your claim.

    Ok...hope to hear from you.

    blessings....
    Ok got a question . You said
    . Now, I AGREE Jesus' sacrifice is the ultimate sacrifice. So stop implying my position entails that Jesus' sacrifice was for naught.
    how can you say this then promote the idea of animal sacrifice?
    ultimate





    adjective1.last; furthest or farthest; ending a processor series:the ultimate point in a journey; the ultimatestyle in hats.


    2.maximum; decisive; conclusive:the ultimate authority; the ultimate weapon.


    3.highest; not subsidiary:ultimate goal in life.


    4.basic; fundamental; representing a limitbeyond which further progress, as ininvestigation or analysis, is impossible:the ultimate particle; ultimate principles.


    5.final; total:the ultimate consequences; the ultimate costof a project.


    6.not to be improved upon or surpassed;greatest; unsurpassed:the ultimate vacation spot; the ultimatestupidity.




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    Bill
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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    Both covenants were fulfilled in Christ:

    Gal 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
    The Abrahamic Covenant is not yet fulfilled in EVERY sense.

    After all, the Abrahamic Covenant is linked to the land-promise.

    AND, most Israelites have NOT yet returned to share in this inheritance, even though we Christians are all heirs of that very land-promise (Gal. 3:29).

    It is yet FUTURE.

    But yes, it is IN CHRIST that we have the hope of sharing in the promised land-inheritance.

    It just hasn't happened yet, obviously.

    The greater exodus-to-come (Jer. 16; Jer. 23) is YET FUTURE.

    regards...

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Well, BibleGuy, 3 pages and you have yet to post a single verse!

    Because posting the address of a verse, then moving on, or posting the address of a verse, and then interpreting the verse, without actually posting the verse, tells me you don't know the Bible at all.


    This is the Bible Discussion Forum, try discussing what the Bible says, instead of posting the address of a verse to support your very wrong opinions. That is just twisting the Bible, and reading into (eisegesis) it what you want it to say.

    Please comment on the verses I have posted, and many others, instead of constantly throwing addresses and interpreting them and using them to support your very wrong eschatology. Dispensationalism is really a lie from the devil. Combine it with Hebrew Roots, and you have a nightmare!
    "And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me." 2 Cor. 12:9 NASB

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by BibleGuy View Post
    The Abrahamic Covenant is not yet fulfilled in EVERY sense.

    After all, the Abrahamic Covenant is linked to the land-promise.

    AND, most Israelites have NOT yet returned to share in this inheritance, even though we Christians are all heirs of that very land-promise (Gal. 3:29).

    It is yet FUTURE.

    But yes, it is IN CHRIST that we have the hope of sharing in the promised land-inheritance.

    It just hasn't happened yet, obviously.

    regards...

    You just don't read or listen, do you? The Old Covenant is obsolete. The Abrahamic Covenant finished when Abrahams descendants worshiped other gods, and did not obey the instructions of Deuteronomy. Christ being born, fulfills:

    "Then I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you,
    and I will make your name great,
    so that you will exemplify divine blessing." Gen. 12:2 NET


    Christ is the blessing spoken of here. The entire Old Covenant is obsolete. Which part do you not get?

    "Now before faith came we were held in custody under the law, being kept as prisoners until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. 26 For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to the promise." Gal. 3:23-29

    Faith has come, the law is fulfilled, we are no longer under law, or the Old Covenant. Stop posting addresses, and verses out of context!
    "And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me." 2 Cor. 12:9 NASB

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by BibleGuy View Post
    The Abrahamic Covenant is not yet fulfilled in EVERY sense.

    After all, the Abrahamic Covenant is linked to the land-promise.

    AND, most Israelites have NOT yet returned to share in this inheritance, even though we Christians are all heirs of that very land-promise (Gal. 3:29).

    It is yet FUTURE.

    But yes, it is IN CHRIST that we have the hope of sharing in the promised land-inheritance.

    It just hasn't happened yet, obviously.

    The greater exodus-to-come (Jer. 16; Jer. 23) is YET FUTURE.

    regards...
    Paul clearly says that the promise went to the "seed", which is singular, not to many. Its all about Christ, not about Jews.
    Do not be worried about many things - only one thing is needed (Lk 10:41-42).

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela53510 View Post
    Just curious about this verse, in Zechariah 14.

    Even Judah will fight at Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the surrounding nations shall be collected, gold, silver, and garments in great abundance. 15 And a plague like this plague shall fall on the horses, the mules, the camels, the donkeys, and whatever beasts may be in those camps.” Zech. 14:14-15

    So, basically a plague on the horses, mules, camels, donkeys and beasts. How many armies today rely on these animals for transportation? Well, I agree on a spy mission into the desert, maybe some horses and camels. But face it, drones take the place of those missions these days.

    And what will happen to all the tanks, guns, artillery, jets, drones, to say nothing of the wall Israel has built? Surely those were important enough to mention, because Judah is going to fight at Jerusalem. And guns/tanks/airplanes etc are not generally destroyed by a plague, anyway!

    Oh wait, the temple records were destroyed in 70 AD by the Romans when the temple was burned to the ground, and taken apart rock by rock, just as Jesus said it was. So no Judah helping Jerusalem. And Jerusalem is actual within ancient Judah, say 3500 years ago, so not sure what this means!

    Think for a minute! Doesn’t it make sense Zechariah was talking about the attack by Vespasian and then Titus, from 66-70 AD. When the Romans destroyed most of the city, and dispersed the Jews forever? You know, back when horses, mules, camels, donkeys and “whatever beasts” the armies were fighting with.

    I am only a partial preterist, because I do not believe Jesus has returned. But, Zechariah 14 has certainly been fulfilled. This simply could not be modern times, because no one fights with animals. If this was supposed to be 2000 years in the future, surely some mystical symbols would have been used. You know “and rocks that turned to fire fell to the ground from the sky, from strange shiny, large birds.” And “large wagons mounted with weapons of terrible destruction wiped out the people, the 4th (or is it 5th?) temple. Or maybe “And from the sky, a huge explosion, in the shape of a mushroom wiped every building and every person into dust.”

    So, you know, a prophecy from God about these so called dispensatonal last days! Instead, we get prophecies which happened within a generation of the death and resurrection of Jesus. You know, like Jesus says in Matt 24.

    Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” Matt 24:1-2

    The problem with dispensationalists, besides being paranoid fear mongers, is they simply don’t read the Bible in context. So, NO SACRIFICES, NO TRIBULATION and NO ENDTIME WAR in modern Israel. (OK, I take that back. Modern Israel, which is not heir to the promises in the OT, does have a lot of wars, although not the kind dispensationalists are predicting.)

    Yikes! So much bad hermeneutics and theology!


    I see your point...but not persuaded yet.

    I mean, the impacts of a massive EMP could render electronics (and everything they power) largely obsolete.

    And future EMP events (man-made or solar-induced or the result of some other possible yet-unforseen-but-prophsied SIGNS in the sky) could be what sets us back to conventional technology.

    Just saying it's possible.

    And since we don't really know how to evaluate the probabilities of such things, it follows that we can not use modern technology as an argument for the improbability of Zec. 14 (or other similar passages) being yet future.

    regards...

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by BibleGuy View Post
    I see your point...but not persuaded yet.

    I mean, the impacts of a massive EMP could render electronics (and everything they power) largely obsolete.

    And future EMP events (man-made or solar-induced or the result of some other possible yet-unforseen-but-prophsied SIGNS in the sky) could be what sets us back to conventional technology.

    Just saying it's possible.

    And since we don't really know how to evaluate the probabilities of such things, it follows that we can not use modern technology as an argument for the improbability of Zec. 14 (or other similar passages) being yet future.

    regards...
    Once we have the knowledge and technology, the EMP will shut down existing electronic devices (and I think on just a half of globe, the "dark side" will be covered), but its just a matter of small time to manufacture them again, so... conventional technology? For few years maybe.
    Do not be worried about many things - only one thing is needed (Lk 10:41-42).

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    The old is fulfilled, I never stated it was nullified.

    If you are looking for some future fulfillment of the old then you have misunderstood what Hebrews stated.

    Something does not pass away and become obsolete only to be recalled hundreds of years later.
    Ok...but remember, it did not yet pass away. It merely entered a state of being only partially observable due to our diaspora the past roughly 2000 years. But when we return, it will again be 100% observable and observed (Dt. 30:1-8).

    Heb 8:13 merely says it is READY to pass away (which means it did not yet pass away).

    Jesus might agree that heaven and earth won't pass away until everything in the law is fulfilled (Mt. 5), but Dt. 30:1-8 is not yet fulfilled. Therefore, Torah of the Old Covenant has not passed away.

    regards...

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    Default Re: ANIMAL SACRIFICES to resume FOR US in the future!

    Quote Originally Posted by Depleted View Post
    Let's try it this way. You started this by preaching what you wanted and expected us to agree. Let me try preaching what I want, and then see how you react to it.

    My preaching:
    All teddy bears are sentient. They live, breath and have their being.

    They also have their own creators, who are not God, but people. Now, because of this, it goes back to when people first started at the inception of the teddy bear. There are three different stories of who made the first teddy bears, so teddy bears chose their own creators.

    German teddy bears pick Margarete Steiff. She first started making stuffed bears back in the 19th century.

    American stuffed bears believe the Creator is the Michtoms -- Rose and Morris.

    And the Brits are a funny lot. They believe the first bear was connected to King Edward VIII, because a salesperson came to the door and asked the maid, if anyone wanted a "teddy bare." She got snippy and said, "We prefer our Teddy dressed."

    So obviously, there is disagreement among teddy bears on who the creator was, but mostly because teddy bears like to argue about this, because they are real.

    End of preaching.

    So, would you like to discuss this is a nice respectful way? Or would you prefer saying the obvious, "You are clueless?"

    Seems to me "clueless" works a lot faster and cuts to the chase, rather than argue over the obvious.
    Hmmm....problem is that your "clueless" claim remains unjustified.

    After all, you have virtually no understanding of the full breadth and depth of my noetic structure, its inter-related justifying functions, or its overall scope, or its explanatory power, or its logical structure, or the justification for the logic employed.

    So go ahead and resort to a "works a lot faster and cuts to the chase" methodology, if that's what you really need...

    But that only exposes your lack of justification.

    And, I think you could be a bit more kind (kinder?) if you really wanted to be.

    And rather than pretend that you know I'm clueless....why not try to be friendly and share truths with me that you think I need to learn?

    Furthermore, when did you engage the detailed justification for the position I set forth?

    Or do you merely resort to "clueless" whenever you're unable to do so?

    Yikes!

    That's not a very diligent truth-seeking attitude...

    Don't expect to discover truths that you're not willing to seek and find.

    regards...

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