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Thread: It's the thought that counts?

  1. #101
    Senior Member FlyingDove's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    [QUOTE=DJ2;3455270]I have heard this argument before, it goes like this:

    a. The gentiles of the household of Cornelius believed the message of Peter.
    b. These gentiles began to speak in tongues by way of the Holy Spirit.
    c. Hence the gentiles are clearly saved.
    d. The gentiles were not baptized, therefore baptism is not required.

    There are a number of problems with this assumption. One glaring problem is the scriptures never state they were saved before baptism, QUOTE]

    Scripture is clear about the Holy Spirit is proof of salvation

    Salvation is a finished transaction, as seen by the fact that it is always being described with "past tense" verbs. (Also see Jn 1:12, Eph. 1:13)

    Eph 4:30 grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are "sealed" unto the day of redemption
    (NOTE: Believers are SEALED with God's Holy Spirit. It a pomise & a guard the soon Christ will come for us. When we are fully redeened & our corruptible bodies are changed to the incorruptible)

    Eph 1:13 salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were "sealed" with that holy Spirit of promise,
    (NOTE: As soon as we believed. God sealed us with a promise = His Holy Spirit).

    Eph1:14 Which is the "earnest" of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession
    (NOTE: God's Holy Spirit dwelling within us is the earnest/pledge. A down payment on our final redemption. When the Lord himself shall decend from heaven, meet us in the air. And in an instantious transformation he will change our corruptible bodies into the incorruptible. And so shall we forever be with the Lord Also see iThess 4:16-17)

    2 Tim 1:14 The Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you
    (NOTE: The Holy Spirit dwelling within us. Is God's deposit & guards us until the day of redemption)

    2 Cor 1:22 Who hath also "sealed us" & "given the earnest" of the Holy Spirit in our hearts
    (NOTE: God has placed His Holy Spirit in the believers heart. As a pledge & a SEAL until the soon coming day of our redemption)

    2 Cor 5:5 God, who also hath given unto us the "earnest" of the Spirit
    (NOTE: God's Holy Spirit dwelling within us is the earnest. Earnest translated from the Greek word: arrabon. Also means a pledge)

    1 John 5:13 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
    (NOTE: John writes: that you may know ""PRESENT TENSE"" that you have eternal life)

    Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
    (NOTE: God doesn't go back on His Word)

    Acts 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
    (NOTE: John preached to whom? All the people of """ISRAEL"""!)

    DJ2, You keep claiming Water Baptism removes sin & those who partake receive the Holy Spirit. Read the next 3 verses:

    Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
    (NOTE: They had been Baptized into John's repentance message & NONE received the Holy Spirit, nor could they)

    Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
    (NOTE: John's baptism didn't, saved anyone, nor did it, removed 1 single sin. Go back & read the earlier posts. Water Baptism is: a symbol, a figure, an emblem. Of the Baptizm of the Holy Spirit, that Christ performs)

    John 3:36 (A) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: (B) and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
    (NOTE: (A) He that BELIEVES = Has FAITH in the Son already HAS eternal life. This DOESN'T say he that BELIEVES = Has FAITH in the Son & gets water baptized)

    (B) He that doesn't BELIEVE in the Son will not see life eternal, but, already has the wrath of God on hin. This doesn't say: Whoever isn't water baptized will experience God's wrath)

    Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    (NOTE: If you confess Jesus as Lord & believe God raised him from the dead. YOU WILL BE SAVED! This DOESN'T say: If you confess Jesus as Lord & believe God raised him from the dead & and get water baptised)

    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    (NOTE: Faith leads to righteousness (not water baptism) Confession leads to salvation (not water baptism)

  2. #102
    Senior Member FlyingDove's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    There was no need to reverse the chronological order of these verses.
    Nehemiah6, 1st I have you on ignore. I only saw this because I used a link from my email. I won't be doing that in the future.

    2ndly, I didn't reverse any thing. There was an ongoing conversation between DJ & myself. He complained that I hadn't addressed verses he had previously sent me. So, I spoke to each verse. The last verse he sent, which, I addressed was Acts 10:47. That ended the reply to/for what he had asked for. I added the verses that followed as additional peices of my own position/reply.

    We've had the Acts 10:44 discussion before. And as usual your wrong. You were wrong about who James was writting to (the 12 Tribes of Israel, not hebrew christians, there are no 12 tribes of hebrew christians) You were wrong about Paul replacing Judus. Scripture is clear Matthais replaced Judas Acts 1:26. You were/are wrong about the gentiles in Acts 10:44 repenting from anything before being baptised in the Holy Spirit, but, I digress.

    The Acts 2 message is all Jewish and doesn't include or apply to gentiles. Read my replies to DJ for help, God knows you need some.

    Finally for a self proclaimed Bible, Hebrew, Greek scholar . You are by far the most hateful, jugdemental scripturally inept person I've ever met. I watched you talk down to, judge & attack believer after believer. Almost everytime without scripture as a position, only becaue you say so. WHAT A JOKE! Thank God & CC for the ignore function.

    BTW, the only sin in the OT that couldn't be covered through sacrifice was idolarty. You may want to rethink your continued worship of the KJ Bible. So, Good luck with that

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    Senior Member Lucy-Pevensie's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    I will make it easy for you. Bible only no esoteric knowledge.

    esoteric means limited knowledge given only to or understood by few.

    I hope this helps.
    Helps what exactly?
    Ezekiel 36
    *Then they will know that I am the Lord*




  4. #104


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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    [QUOTE=FlyingDove;3455547]
    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    I have heard this argument before, it goes like this:

    a. The gentiles of the household of Cornelius believed the message of Peter.
    b. These gentiles began to speak in tongues by way of the Holy Spirit.
    c. Hence the gentiles are clearly saved.
    d. The gentiles were not baptized, therefore baptism is not required.

    There are a number of problems with this assumption. One glaring problem is the scriptures never state they were saved before baptism, QUOTE]

    Scripture is clear about the Holy Spirit is proof of salvation

    Salvation is a finished transaction, as seen by the fact that it is always being described with "past tense" verbs. (Also see Jn 1:12, Eph. 1:13)

    Eph 4:30 grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are "sealed" unto the day of redemption
    (NOTE: Believers are SEALED with God's Holy Spirit. It a pomise & a guard the soon Christ will come for us. When we are fully redeened & our corruptible bodies are changed to the incorruptible)

    Eph 1:13 salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were "sealed" with that holy Spirit of promise,
    (NOTE: As soon as we believed. God sealed us with a promise = His Holy Spirit).

    Eph1:14 Which is the "earnest" of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession
    (NOTE: God's Holy Spirit dwelling within us is the earnest/pledge. A down payment on our final redemption. When the Lord himself shall decend from heaven, meet us in the air. And in an instantious transformation he will change our corruptible bodies into the incorruptible. And so shall we forever be with the Lord Also see iThess 4:16-17)

    2 Tim 1:14 The Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you
    (NOTE: The Holy Spirit dwelling within us. Is God's deposit & guards us until the day of redemption)

    2 Cor 1:22 Who hath also "sealed us" & "given the earnest" of the Holy Spirit in our hearts
    (NOTE: God has placed His Holy Spirit in the believers heart. As a pledge & a SEAL until the soon coming day of our redemption)

    2 Cor 5:5 God, who also hath given unto us the "earnest" of the Spirit
    (NOTE: God's Holy Spirit dwelling within us is the earnest. Earnest translated from the Greek word: arrabon. Also means a pledge)

    1 John 5:13 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
    (NOTE: John writes: that you may know ""PRESENT TENSE"" that you have eternal life)

    Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
    (NOTE: God doesn't go back on His Word)

    Acts 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
    (NOTE: John preached to whom? All the people of """ISRAEL"""!)

    DJ2, You keep claiming Water Baptism removes sin & those who partake receive the Holy Spirit. Read the next 3 verses:

    Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
    (NOTE: They had been Baptized into John's repentance message & NONE received the Holy Spirit, nor could they)

    Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
    (NOTE: John's baptism didn't, saved anyone, nor did it, removed 1 single sin. Go back & read the earlier posts. Water Baptism is: a symbol, a figure, an emblem. Of the Baptizm of the Holy Spirit, that Christ performs)

    John 3:36 (A) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: (B) and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
    (NOTE: (A) He that BELIEVES = Has FAITH in the Son already HAS eternal life. This DOESN'T say he that BELIEVES = Has FAITH in the Son & gets water baptized)

    (B) He that doesn't BELIEVE in the Son will not see life eternal, but, already has the wrath of God on hin. This doesn't say: Whoever isn't water baptized will experience God's wrath)

    Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    (NOTE: If you confess Jesus as Lord & believe God raised him from the dead. YOU WILL BE SAVED! This DOESN'T say: If you confess Jesus as Lord & believe God raised him from the dead & and get water baptised)

    10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    (NOTE: Faith leads to righteousness (not water baptism) Confession leads to salvation (not water baptism)
    Scripture is clear about the Holy Spirit is proof of salvation
    Your verses are more about assurance and not proof of salvation.

    DJ2, You keep claiming Water Baptism removes sin & those who partake receive the Holy Spirit. Read the next 3 verses
    It is not I who is claiming this but Peter. His choice of verbiage is quite clear (Acts 2:38), as well as Ananias (Acts 22:16).

    You seem to be fighting the very diction of these and many other verses by simply labeling your verses as all-encompassing, definitive and unequivocal thesis statements, which they are not. None of your statements are written in the definitive, they are written like 99% of all language is, general. You desperately want faith alone regeneration theology to be true and so read your verses as definitive. This is the fundamental flaw in your thinking, you are arbitrarily deciding what is definitive.

    Pointing out the lack of a peculiar item in a verse does not exclude its importance. Does the lack of faith being mentioned in James 1:27 rule out the need for belief before the Father?

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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    You really don't know what this verse means, do you. The waters that saved Noah were symbolic of baptism not the other way around. In other words, the waters of Noah pointed to the waters of baptism. Both waters were real but one pointed to the other, which now saves us.

    "which was a symbol pointing to

    baptism, which now saves you." GNT

    "And that water is like

    baptism, which now saves you." ERV

    You are convinced that salvation is by faith alone, nothing I show you will change your mind.
    Baptism by the Spirit saves.
    God has no concern if you have any access to water or not.
    If so, then believers would spit on each other to be saved.
    People spit on Jesus, but it was a useless gesture.
    He did not change to their way of thinking.

  6. #106


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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    But people receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit -- being baptized with the Spirit -- is PROOF of salvation. So you ignored that and misdirected the focus to tongues.

    Bringing this up after Pentecost is so lame that it is further proof that your doctrine is false. Do you even understand the significance of what happened on the day of Pentecost?

    No, it is one of the clearest biblical evidences that salvation -- receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (which goes along with receiving the gift of eternal life) -- occurs BEFORE water baptism.
    But people receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit -- being baptized with the Spirit -- is PROOF of salvation. So you ignored that and misdirected the focus to tongues
    Okay, where is this labeled as a sign of salvation? Show me where it is proof of salvation. I most certainly did not ignore the focus, tongues is the focus. How did they know that God considered the gentiles "clean", they heard them speaking in tongues. I did not bring up tongues, God did.

    Bringing this up after Pentecost is so lame that it is further proof that your doctrine is false. Do you even understand the significance of what happened on the day of Pentecost?
    I sincerely doubt you have a firm grasp of the meaning of Pentecost. Pentecost was not a sign of salvation and neither was the praise of the gentiles a sign of salvation, hence Peter's command to baptize them.

    No, it is one of the clearest biblical evidences that salvation -- receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (which goes along with receiving the gift of eternal life) -- occurs BEFORE water baptism.
    If this is the best and clearest evidence that salvation comes without baptism then I suggest faith alone regeneration theology in D.O.A. A theology based on exceptions and not the norm. A theology that cannot even produce a single verse (faith alone) that uses its moniker.

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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    [QUOTE=DJ2;3455697]
    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingDove View Post
    His choice of verbiage is quite clear (Acts 2:38),
    God does not care who gets their hair wet.



    38Peterreplied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    The gift is the baptism by the Spirit, not the water of repentance.

    Acts 1:5Verse Concepts

    for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized
    with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."




    Acts 2:38Verse Concepts

    Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ
    for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.




    Matthew 3:11Verse Concepts

    "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance,
    but He who is coming after me is mightier than I,
    and I am not fit to remove His sandals;
    He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    Last edited by LibrarianLeo; 1 Week Ago at 04:13 PM.

  8. #108


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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    [QUOTE=LibrarianLeo;3455913]
    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post

    God does not care who gets their hair wet.



    38Peterreplied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    The gift is the baptism by the Spirit, not the water of repentance.

    Acts 1:5Verse Concepts

    for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized
    with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."




    Acts 2:38Verse Concepts

    Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ
    for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.




    Matthew 3:11Verse Concepts

    "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance,
    but He who is coming after me is mightier than I,
    and I am not fit to remove His sandals;
    He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    God does not care who gets their hair wet.
    Bumper sticker theology

  9. #109


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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    Quote Originally Posted by LibrarianLeo View Post
    Baptism by the Spirit saves.
    God has no concern if you have any access to water or not.
    If so, then believers would spit on each other to be saved.
    People spit on Jesus, but it was a useless gesture.
    He did not change to their way of thinking.
    Do you have a biblical defense or are you just typing what comes to mind.

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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    Do you have a biblical defense or are you just typing what comes to mind.
    A defense is not necessary. You have no biblical basis for your accusation.

    For the cause of Christ
    Roger
    The bible is a mirror not a magnifying glass
    use it to examine yourself not others.

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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    Do you have a biblical defense or are you just typing what comes to mind.
    I can do both.


    1 Corinthians 12:13
    For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

    Acts 1:5
    For John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

    God does not care who gets their hair wet.


    Matthew 3:11
    “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    Acts 2:38
    And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 1:8
    But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

    Luke 3:16
    John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water,
    but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.


    1 Peter 3:21
    Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body
    but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

    Galatians 3:27
    For as many of you as were baptized into Christ
    have put on Christ.

    Acts 2:4
    And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    Mark 1:8
    I have baptized you with water,
    but
    he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

    Acts 2:1-47
    When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind,
    and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them.
    And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit
    and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
    Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. ...

    Acts 4:31
    And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness.

    John 1:33

    I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water
    said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain,
    this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’


    Ephesians 4:5
    One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    Acts 19:6

    And when Paul had laid his hands on them,
    the Holy Spirit came on them,
    and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

    Acts 19:2
    And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
    And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”

    John 7:37-39
    On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

    Titus 3:5
    He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness,
    but according to his own mercy, by
    the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,


    Ephesians 5:18
    And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery,
    but be filled with the Spirit,

    Acts 11:16
    And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said,
    ‘John baptized with water,
    but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

    John 20:22
    And when he had said this,
    he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.


    Last edited by LibrarianLeo; 1 Week Ago at 06:10 PM.
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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    Biblically speaking, is the act of obedience truly necessary or is the intent to obey sufficient? I ask this question because of the many excuses that are thrown up as reasons why the act of baptism itself cannot be necessary for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). Are excuses such as:

    a. Too weak to leave bed
    b. In desert
    c. Water too cold
    d. Dies on way to be baptized
    e. Astronaut in space
    f. Afraid of water (aquaphobia)
    g. Just got hair done
    h. thinking its a work of merit

    legitimate reasons against baptism being the point of the forgiveness of sins?


    I didn't read the whole thread yet, but I'd like to pose a question to all.

    I you are a father/mother, and your child comes up to you with a tear in the eye and says "I'm sorry", do you really care whether he/she cleaned up his/her room first?
    And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

    Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. John 8:12

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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    John's baptism was for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4).

    It really needs to be no more complicated that that.
    Although I can understand how someone could come to the conclusion you have reached here, it is really a testament to needing to apply the WHOLE Word of God, and NOT to take a verse out of context.

    Please answer the following questions:

    1. If John's baptism takes away a person's sin, why did Jesus have to come, suffer, be crucified, and die? Jesus prayed to His Father 3 times that if there were any other way, than Him going to the Cross, to take it. Can't you begin to see how offensive it is to God to say that baptism saves? It is basically saying God let His Son suffer and die even though there was another way for sins to be paid for.

    2.John says in Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the HOLY SPIRIT and fire.
    If these people whom John baptized did not then receive the Holy Spirit, which John just said Jesus would baptize with, how were their sins forgiven and them saved?

    3. And in John1:
    29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

    If baptism takes away sin why didn't John say " Behold, baptism takes away the sin of the World!" ?


    No. This baptism showed hearts that were ready to be made new, ready to receive their Messiah, by confession, and an admission that they needed a Savior, as opposed to the brood of vipers that were there whose hearts were hardened because they believed they could attain the Kingdom of Heaven by THEIR righteousness.

    Please trust solely in Jesus, His perfect Sacrifice, and subsequent resurrection, and NOT on water baptism.

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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    for many of us, 'water-Baptism' helps us to relate to our Saviour in a very special way -
    it is a very emotional and physical way of doing this, and is a great comfort in a way
    that we will help us feel a new closeness with Him, and a way that helps up to identify
    with our Maker at a different level -
    perhaps many don't feel this way, and this is a choice that makes them
    feel a peace in their own way...it should not be debatable, but it should be an acted upon
    conviction that would or could only be a 'good thing' if done with and in pure Love...
    PennEd likes this.

  15. #115


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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    Quote Originally Posted by PennEd View Post
    Although I can understand how someone could come to the conclusion you have reached here, it is really a testament to needing to apply the WHOLE Word of God, and NOT to take a verse out of context.

    Please answer the following questions:

    1. If John's baptism takes away a person's sin, why did Jesus have to come, suffer, be crucified, and die? Jesus prayed to His Father 3 times that if there were any other way, than Him going to the Cross, to take it. Can't you begin to see how offensive it is to God to say that baptism saves? It is basically saying God let His Son suffer and die even though there was another way for sins to be paid for.

    2.John says in Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the HOLY SPIRIT and fire.
    If these people whom John baptized did not then receive the Holy Spirit, which John just said Jesus would baptize with, how were their sins forgiven and them saved?

    3. And in John1:
    29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

    If baptism takes away sin why didn't John say " Behold, baptism takes away the sin of the World!" ?


    No. This baptism showed hearts that were ready to be made new, ready to receive their Messiah, by confession, and an admission that they needed a Savior, as opposed to the brood of vipers that were there whose hearts were hardened because they believed they could attain the Kingdom of Heaven by THEIR righteousness.

    Please trust solely in Jesus, His perfect Sacrifice, and subsequent resurrection, and NOT on water baptism.
    I also understand how someone must come to the conclusion that Mark 1:4 must mean something other then what is clearly stated.

    Please answer this one simple question:

    Why would John use such verbiage, Mark record such words and Jesus not rebuke such an offensive statement if baptism was not for the remission of sins?

    If baptism does not take away sin why did Peter say, "Repent and be baptized so that your sins will be forgiven"?

    No. This baptism showed the clear conscience of those water baptized, not a simply removing of the filth of the flesh but an appeal before God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1st Peter 3:21).

    Please trust solely in Jesus, His perfect Sacrifice, and subsequent resurrection and NOT on the false teachings of faith alone regeneration theology.
    Last edited by DJ2; 1 Week Ago at 11:27 PM.

  16. #116


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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    Quote Originally Posted by PennEd View Post
    Although I can understand how someone could come to the conclusion you have reached here, it is really a testament to needing to apply the WHOLE Word of God, and NOT to take a verse out of context.

    Please answer the following questions:

    1. If John's baptism takes away a person's sin, why did Jesus have to come, suffer, be crucified, and die? Jesus prayed to His Father 3 times that if there were any other way, than Him going to the Cross, to take it. Can't you begin to see how offensive it is to God to say that baptism saves? It is basically saying God let His Son suffer and die even though there was another way for sins to be paid for.

    2.John says in Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the HOLY SPIRIT and fire.
    If these people whom John baptized did not then receive the Holy Spirit, which John just said Jesus would baptize with, how were their sins forgiven and them saved?

    3. And in John1:
    29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

    If baptism takes away sin why didn't John say " Behold, baptism takes away the sin of the World!" ?


    No. This baptism showed hearts that were ready to be made new, ready to receive their Messiah, by confession, and an admission that they needed a Savior, as opposed to the brood of vipers that were there whose hearts were hardened because they believed they could attain the Kingdom of Heaven by THEIR righteousness.

    Please trust solely in Jesus, His perfect Sacrifice, and subsequent resurrection, and NOT on water baptism.
    Your three questions are rather contrived, a purposeful attempt to confuse a very simple verse. The sacrifice of Jesus was to fulfill all the promises of salvation both before, during and after His resurrection. There is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood, yet many were forgiven and promised salvation long before the death of Jesus. These promises are NOT offensive but were fulfilled by His stripes.

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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    Your three questions are rather contrived, a purposeful attempt to confuse a very simple verse. The sacrifice of Jesus was to fulfill all the promises of salvation both before, during and after His resurrection. There is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood, yet many were forgiven and promised salvation long before the death of Jesus. These promises are NOT offensive but were fulfilled by His stripes.
    Answer them.

    We both know you cannot.

    There was no reason for Jesus to die if John's baptism took away sin.
    Katy-follower likes this.

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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ2 View Post
    I also understand how someone must come to the conclusion that Mark 1:4 must mean something other then what is clearly stated.

    Please answer this one simple question:

    Why would John use such verbiage, Mark record such words and Jesus not rebuke such an offensive statement if baptism was not for the remission of sins?

    If baptism does not take away sin why did Peter say, "Repent and be baptized so that your sins will be forgiven"?

    No. This baptism showed the clear conscience of those water baptized, not a simply removing of the filth of the flesh but an appeal before God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1st Peter 3:21).

    Please trust solely in Jesus, His perfect Sacrifice, and subsequent resurrection and NOT on the false teachings of faith alone regeneration theology.
    I've already answered your question in the previous post, as well as Roger.

  19. #119


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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    Quote Originally Posted by PennEd View Post
    Answer them.

    We both know you cannot.

    There was no reason for Jesus to die if John's baptism took away sin.
    Are you reading the posts?

    "The sacrifice of Jesus was to fulfill all the promises of salvation both before, during and after His resurrection."

    There was no reason for Jesus to die if John's baptism took away sin.
    That's like saying there was no reason for Jesus to die if He had already forgiven the sins of the paralyzed man.

  20. #120


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    Default Re: It's the thought that counts?

    Quote Originally Posted by PennEd View Post
    Answer them.

    We both know you cannot.

    There was no reason for Jesus to die if John's baptism took away sin.
    Are you reading the posts?

    "The sacrifice of Jesus was to fulfill all the promises of salvation both before, during and after His resurrection."

    There was no reason for Jesus to die if John's baptism took away sin.
    That's like saying there was no reason for Jesus to die if He had already forgiven the sins of the paralyzed man.

    On what post did you answer my question?

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