Sharing Faith with Questions of My Own

[FenceMan]

(If many words tire your eyes, feel free to scroll down to my specific questions in bold... )

I had an interesting discussion with an unsaved coworker about church and the Bible the other day. My co-worker grew up in an African Methodist Episcopal (AME) church but left for good when given the choice at the age of 12. He now lives happily as a self-proclaimed "heathen".

The other day the topic of religion came up somehow, and he declared that all religions are full of self-contradictions. I said that I personally don't believe that Christianity is. He pointed to the Pope as proof of Christianity's inaccuracies since the Pope can change his mind on doctrine whenever he chooses.

Well, having removed the Pope from the picture and making it clear I don't consider him an authority on Christian doctrine, my coworker proceeded to point out that the fact that we have an Old Testament and New Testament is evidence that Christianity was really just formed from two separate religions. He said there are inconsistencies between the two testaments.

I assumed he meant the typical argument of "God promoted violence in the Old Testament". But actually, my coworker said he understood the reason for the violence as simply part of the bigger picture of God's plan. So that was a surprise to me!

The inconsistencies he seems to have trouble with basically boils down to the old covenant versus the new covenant. He doesn't see why the Law was so important in the Old Testament and suddenly God seems more lenient in the New Testament.

I, regrettably, didn't have an immediate answer for these "inconsistencies" since it took me a bit to figure out that his confusion was over Law versus Grace. But now that I have that figured out, I think I'll be able to respond to it when the topic comes up again. Really, the reason for the difference points straight to Jesus and the fact that the sacrifices were never good enough so a perfect sacrifice had to be made. Since we're on the other side of that sacrifice, we are covered by grace, but God's wrath will still come eventually unless we actually accept Jesus' gift.

The problem is, whenever these conversations come up, all kinds of contradictions and questions of my own get in the way. So in the midst of trying to answer, I begin to fumble as I try to work around my own doubts and questions. In this case, I began to wonder to myself"Really, though, why did God wait until halfway through history to send Jesus? Why were the sacrifices even instituted if there was a better way to salvation? Did we really need the old covenant? What was the purpose of it?"

And those thoughts rolling around in my head caused me to feel less confident as I tried to answer his question about the "inconsistencies". I'm sure I've heard the answer before, but currently I'm drawing a blank.

So how can I explain why the old covenant was needed and Jesus didn't arrive at the earliest possible date?...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another thing he kept bringing up is that he said he believes culture decides morality. And, for that reason, different cultures have different understandings of right and wrong. I countered this by pointing out that even if a society were to say murder is alright, if someone were to murder your mother you would know that it's terribly wrong even if society says otherwise.

The problem is, I never lived in a culture where violence was normalized (thank goodness!) so I can't really say whether or not someone from that culture would actually feel the wrongness of someone's murder despite the norms. I suspect so, but I really don't know with 100% confidence...

For example, human sacrifice was once a common religious practice in ancient Mexico. If someone's young son or daughter was chosen as a human sacrifice, would the family feel that it was a sin, even if it was a normal part of their culture? Or would they feel honored that their child was chosen and be happy that their child would get to die in such a "noble" way...? I really can't say.

When I try to argue that everyone knows deep down that there are certain rights and wrongs as evidence pointing to a God-given moral standard, I simultaneously struggle with the knowledge that there are people out there who seem perfectly content in life while committing sins or observing sins done to others. My co-worker included, often... This seems to fly in the face of the argument for human awareness of right and wrong.

Is it true that there is a universal understanding of right and wrong across cultures, despite cultural norms, or is this inaccurate and a poor foundation for an argument?

 

[Enoch987]

thank God for the Bible which says that murder, stealing, lying is wrong. the culture doesn't have the final say so.
Why try to answer why Jesus didn't come earlier? that's like arguing for or against predestination. The fact is Jesus resurrected, the early church believed in Him because his apostles worked miracles though the believers knew that they would be persecuted. Christianity was not a favored religion under the Romans.

 

[FenceMan]

thank God for the Bible which says that murder, stealing, lying is wrong. the culture doesn't have the final say so.
Why try to answer why Jesus didn't come earlier? that's like arguing for or against predestination. The fact is Jesus resurrected, the early church believed in Him because his apostles worked miracles though the believers knew that they would be persecuted. Christianity was not a favored religion under the Romans.

Yes, I was about to say to him that God's Truth trumps cultural morality, whether good or bad. But the problem with that, is then I end up in an argument where I'm basically saying the Bible is right because it says it is... If I were in my co-worker's shoes I don't think that would be very convincing.

I'm looking for a more satisfying answer to the reason for the old covenant so that I can better address his question of basically why everything changed after hundreds of years of living in a certain way with animal sacrifices and certain rituals to observe. I don't think it's really the same as predestination...

 

[dcontroversal]

This is my take and I have posted this one other time a while back........

The O.T. and the N.T. are like the front and rear sights on a gun.....they are BOTH part of the equation and BOTH are need to accurately sight down the barrel of faith which points to Christ......

The first O.T. points to the guilt of every man and also begins to reveal the One true GOD of heaven to humanity....the LATTER "N.T." is the cure for man's fallen state and sinful condition.....

Just like the sights on a gun are both needed to accurately hit the target....both the O.T. and N.T. are needed to accurately understand God, man, our condition and the eternal cure found in Christ.

 

[Studyman]

(If many words tire your eyes, feel free to scroll down to my specific questions in bold... )

I had an interesting discussion with an unsaved coworker about church and the Bible the other day. My co-worker grew up in an African Methodist Episcopal (AME) church but left for good when given the choice at the age of 12. He now lives happily as a self-proclaimed "heathen".

The other day the topic of religion came up somehow, and he declared that all religions are full of self-contradictions. I said that I personally don't believe that Christianity is. He pointed to the Pope as proof of Christianity's inaccuracies since the Pope can change his mind on doctrine whenever he chooses.

Well, having removed the Pope from the picture and making it clear I don't consider him an authority on Christian doctrine, my coworker proceeded to point out that the fact that we have an Old Testament and New Testament is evidence that Christianity was really just formed from two separate religions. He said there are inconsistencies between the two testaments.

I assumed he meant the typical argument of "God promoted violence in the Old Testament". But actually, my coworker said he understood the reason for the violence as simply part of the bigger picture of God's plan. So that was a surprise to me!

The inconsistencies he seems to have trouble with basically boils down to the old covenant versus the new covenant. He doesn't see why the Law was so important in the Old Testament and suddenly God seems more lenient in the New Testament.

I, regrettably, didn't have an immediate answer for these "inconsistencies" since it took me a bit to figure out that his confusion was over Law versus Grace. But now that I have that figured out, I think I'll be able to respond to it when the topic comes up again. Really, the reason for the difference points straight to Jesus and the fact that the sacrifices were never good enough so a perfect sacrifice had to be made. Since we're on the other side of that sacrifice, we are covered by grace, but God's wrath will still come eventually unless we actually accept Jesus' gift.

The problem is, whenever these conversations come up, all kinds of contradictions and questions of my own get in the way. So in the midst of trying to answer, I begin to fumble as I try to work around my own doubts and questions. In this case, I began to wonder to myself"Really, though, why did God wait until halfway through history to send Jesus? Why were the sacrifices even instituted if there was a better way to salvation? Did we really need the old covenant? What was the purpose of it?"

And those thoughts rolling around in my head caused me to feel less confident as I tried to answer his question about the "inconsistencies". I'm sure I've heard the answer before, but currently I'm drawing a blank.

So how can I explain why the old covenant was needed and Jesus didn't arrive at the earliest possible date?...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another thing he kept bringing up is that he said he believes culture decides morality. And, for that reason, different cultures have different understandings of right and wrong. I countered this by pointing out that even if a society were to say murder is alright, if someone were to murder your mother you would know that it's terribly wrong even if society says otherwise.

The problem is, I never lived in a culture where violence was normalized (thank goodness!) so I can't really say whether or not someone from that culture would actually feel the wrongness of someone's murder despite the norms. I suspect so, but I really don't know with 100% confidence...

For example, human sacrifice was once a common religious practice in ancient Mexico. If someone's young son or daughter was chosen as a human sacrifice, would the family feel that it was a sin, even if it was a normal part of their culture? Or would they feel honored that their child was chosen and be happy that their child would get to die in such a "noble" way...? I really can't say.

When I try to argue that everyone knows deep down that there are certain rights and wrongs as evidence pointing to a God-given moral standard, I simultaneously struggle with the knowledge that there are people out there who seem perfectly content in life while committing sins or observing sins done to others. My co-worker included, often... This seems to fly in the face of the argument for human awareness of right and wrong.

Is it true that there is a universal understanding of right and wrong across cultures, despite cultural norms, or is this inaccurate and a poor foundation for an argument?

Wow FM,

What a wonderful, thoughtfully articulated and honest question. And a very good one at that. I suppose there are many different opinions as to the answer. But in an attempt to share my views absent from religious traditions or doctrinal thought, I would like a crack at it.

I personally believe the Bible is a written journey into the natural mind of man. That the purpose of the Word is to expose to our selves the natural inclinations of an animal with free will. Ultimately an animal with do what it needs to do to survive, even if it means harm to other animals around them. Eventually natural beings with destroy themselves as nature clearly shows. But if a natural being is controlled, if it has instructions which cause it to deny the impulse to serve itself, it can live in perpetuity. And what kind of a place would eternal life be if those in it couldn't control their natural self serving self.


Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.


So in a spiritual sense, we are all born into darkness. As a child we do not even have a sense of right and wrong accept what our parents "Teach" us. A child who grows up with no instructions will do what it needs to do to survive. Stealing and lying are as natural for a child as crying. So in that respect, cultures(parents) do determine the good vs. evil in the natural human. I don't believe there is a natural "deep down" discernment apart from our life's experiences.

But also in a Spiritual sense, God created Light. And deemed the Light "Good", not the darkness. I think this represents the "Word" that became flesh. He divided the light from the darkness. Or divided the Good, from the darkness (Evil), and called the Light "Good".

It seems the creator God of the Bible wants men to make a "choice" between His Word "Light" and our natural self "Darkness".

He gave Eve His Word (Light) and also allowed her to be tested by the serpent. (Darkness) And gave her a circumstance to choose. She chose darkness as it is written.

The Word which became flesh in the person of Jesus explains why.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Any parent knows little children do not like being told what to do. This is a natural human trait. Paul explains.

Rom. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against GodLight) for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh(Darkness) cannot please God.(Light)

In 1 Cor. 10 Paul speaks about how the Old Testament writings are examples to us.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

I believe the Bible is a written set of examples, written for this time in history, which spell out the "choice" God gives to all mankind.

Duet. 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good,(Light) and death and evil;(Darkness)

Same as the choice God gave to eve.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life(Good, Light) and death,(Evil, Dearkness) blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, (Light)and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

This is basically the choice. Listen and trust God's Word, or don't listen and trust God's Word.

Matt. 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

I think the entire Bible is a Spiritual example of our whole life. We start in darkness, but God's Gives everyone one of us the choice to choose the Light. We all have the Word of God (Light) and the serpent (natural self)

He wants to give a gift to those who deny their natural self and "Choose Him".

The examples called the Bible are filled with every kind of circumstance you can imagine to help us with this choice. And God plainly says He will preserve the natural selfish thoughts in our mind to test us to see if we will choose Him, or do as Eve did.


Judges 2:21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua.

I believe this represents the natural thoughts we have. Selfishness, Pride, Stubbornness, rebellion, lust.

God keeps them there in this life so we can learn to choose the Good over the evil. Jesus showed the way.

Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Part of the darkness we choose between are religions which come in God's Name. This is a whole other conversation but it also starts with the serpent who actually used parts of god's Word to trick Eve into refusing the Light.

I could go on and on but I think you get the point. This understanding is not widespread but the Bible comes alive when you look as His Word this way.

I hope this helps.

 

[FenceMan]

Wow FM,

What a wonderful, thoughtfully articulated and honest question. And a very good one at that. I suppose there are many different opinions as to the answer. But in an attempt to share my views absent from religious traditions or doctrinal thought, I would like a crack at it.

I personally believe the Bible is a written journey into the natural mind of man. That the purpose of the Word is to expose to our selves the natural inclinations of an animal with free will. Ultimately an animal with do what it needs to do to survive, even if it means harm to other animals around them. Eventually natural beings with destroy themselves as nature clearly shows. But if a natural being is controlled, if it has instructions which cause it to deny the impulse to serve itself, it can live in perpetuity. And what kind of a place would eternal life be if those in it couldn't control their natural self serving self.


Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.


So in a spiritual sense, we are all born into darkness. As a child we do not even have a sense of right and wrong accept what our parents "Teach" us. A child who grows up with no instructions will do what it needs to do to survive. Stealing and lying are as natural for a child as crying. So in that respect, cultures(parents) do determine the good vs. evil in the natural human. I don't believe there is a natural "deep down" discernment apart from our life's experiences.

But also in a Spiritual sense, God created Light. And deemed the Light "Good", not the darkness. I think this represents the "Word" that became flesh. He divided the light from the darkness. Or divided the Good, from the darkness (Evil), and called the Light "Good".

It seems the creator God of the Bible wants men to make a "choice" between His Word "Light" and our natural self "Darkness".

He gave Eve His Word (Light) and also allowed her to be tested by the serpent. (Darkness) And gave her a circumstance to choose. She chose darkness as it is written.

The Word which became flesh in the person of Jesus explains why.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Any parent knows little children do not like being told what to do. This is a natural human trait. Paul explains.

Rom. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against GodLight) for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh(Darkness) cannot please God.(Light)

In 1 Cor. 10 Paul speaks about how the Old Testament writings are examples to us.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

I believe the Bible is a written set of examples, written for this time in history, which spell out the "choice" God gives to all mankind.

Duet. 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good,(Light) and death and evil;(Darkness)

Same as the choice God gave to eve.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life(Good, Light) and death,(Evil, Dearkness) blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, (Light)and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

This is basically the choice. Listen and trust God's Word, or don't listen and trust God's Word.

Matt. 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

I think the entire Bible is a Spiritual example of our whole life. We start in darkness, but God's Gives everyone one of us the choice to choose the Light. We all have the Word of God (Light) and the serpent (natural self)

He wants to give a gift to those who deny their natural self and "Choose Him".

The examples called the Bible are filled with every kind of circumstance you can imagine to help us with this choice. And God plainly says He will preserve the natural selfish thoughts in our mind to test us to see if we will choose Him, or do as Eve did.


Judges 2:21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua.

I believe this represents the natural thoughts we have. Selfishness, Pride, Stubbornness, rebellion, lust.

God keeps them there in this life so we can learn to choose the Good over the evil. Jesus showed the way.

Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Part of the darkness we choose between are religions which come in God's Name. This is a whole other conversation but it also starts with the serpent who actually used parts of god's Word to trick Eve into refusing the Light.

I could go on and on but I think you get the point. This understanding is not widespread but the Bible comes alive when you look as His Word this way.

I hope this helps.

"Studyman"! Are we related?

Adam and Eve had free will before they ate from the tree, but up to that point they had lived completely in the light. They literally walked with God!

They sinned before even eating the fruit when they knowingly disobeyed God, so they had already chosen darkness at that point but... weren't aware that their disobedience was evil/darkness??

Afterwards, their eyes were opened and they knew they had sinned and become a part of the darkness, so they hid from the Light (God).

So this would seem to indicate, then, that every natural man would be living in shame even if their culture's norms say what they're doing is fine. Yet to look at other cultures, that definitely doesn't seem to be true. Perhaps this is because they never knew God personally (didn't walk with Him so to speak) and didn't have that "parent" to teach them the Light?

Still, natural men (including religious natural men) from every culture will attest to a feeling of emptiness before hearing the Gospel. They didn't really know that what they were doing was sin because they didn't have the Word. Just a vague (or not so vague) sense of something not quite right. But upon hearing the Word, they realize that they are not living up to God's standards and the Light is what they are lacking. Then they feel the shame and can either choose the Light as the solution, or become shameless (aka unrepentant) and continue living in darkness.

Actually, the topic of shame is very interesting. I was reading about Christian missionaries 100 years ago who were ministering to some Pacific islanders. The missionaries never taught the native people to start wearing more clothing, but one of the immedate effects after hearing the Gospel was that they wanted to cover up more. The Gospel had produced a godly shame in them and opened their eyes to their own fallenness which in turn led them to seek Jesus as the solution.

Really, there's a paradox in that Christians are people who walk in a constant degree of shame and call themselves slaves, yet that shame is transforming them into becoming more like God. Whilst unbelievers walk in shamelessness and they call this freedom, yet it's actually destroying them.

The amazing conclusion? The shame that Adam and Eve experienced was an act of God's grace! They didn't wander into oblivion doing whatever they pleased. God made sure they knew that what they had done was wrong and their shame and suffering was a constant reminder. That shame and suffering has led countless people back to Him. Even God's curse was full of grace and mercy!

For this reason, I won't be at all surprised if Adam and Eve are in heaven.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Is it true that there is a universal understanding of right and wrong across cultures, despite cultural norms ...

Yes. This is true because God has given all human beings a conscience. Study Romans chapter 2.

As to your other questions, only God has the answers, so you will need to ask Him.

 

[FenceMan]

Yes. This is true because God has given all human beings a conscience. Study Romans chapter 2.

As to your other questions, only God has the answers, so you will need to ask Him.

Yes, Romans 2 does seem to prove that everyone has the Law written on their hearts. However, since they don't actually have the written Law and are still in darkness, I guess it's easier for them to go astray or ignore their conscience.

I suppose then it is Satan hijacking people's consciences that creates cultures with norms that are contrary to the Law. So because the people are all deceived, they perceive their cultural norms to be correct and righteous when they really aren't. I would assume some people within those cultures still question the norms (in their own hearts mostly) because some people's consciences will be less hijacked than others.

So getting back to my original question... it would seem the answer is yes that there is an understanding of right and wrong across all cultures, but many people are confused by Satan's lies and are off center when it comes to drawing the lines between right and wrong.

So my example of human sacrifices in ancient Mexico as a cultural norm...

The purpose for the sacrifices was likely to appease the gods by offering up the very best thing they had - their own loved ones. While this is horribly wrong and is murder (an obvious disobedience against the Law) the principle of making a sacrifice to God and seeking peace and oneness with Him is something found everywhere in the Law. So perhaps Satan took the desire of these people to resume closeness with God (a very good desire) and to give Him their best (also very Biblical) and found a way to convince them that there are actually gods (plural and little g) and that the sacrifice needed to find that peace and oneness was their own children.

So, then, does society determine morality? Definitely not, because God created people to begin with! If a culture is living in a way (no matter for how many thousands of years) that isn't in line with God's plan then it has to be changed if the people truly desire to find peace and be close to Him again.

 

[FenceMan]

Yes. This is true because God has given all human beings a conscience. Study Romans chapter 2.

As to your other questions, only God has the answers, so you will need to ask Him.

If only God has the answers to my other questions, then I probably shouldn't even seek answers. Because if I think I get an answer from Him it would have to be regarded as a new revelation...

But I think there probably are answers within the Scriptures, if anyone can point me to them.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If only God has the answers to my other questions, then I probably shouldn't even seek answers. Because if I think I get an answer from Him it would have to be regarded as a new revelation...

But I think there probably are answers within the Scriptures, if anyone can point me to them.

The Bible simply says that "when the fulness of time was come" God sent His Son. Which means that God had a specific time in mind. You will still have to ask God "Why?"

 

[Angela53510]

Why did God wait till half way through history to send Jesus? First, God is above time, the plan was always in place. Calling Abraham, many descendents, many tribes, David on the throne, then sadly, Israel sinking into apostasy again and again, even as they did in the time of the judges. Then being taken into captivity, and the Pharisees returning to the law.

The Bible is clear Jesus came at the right time.

“But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.” Gal. 4:4-5

What is this fullness of time? Many things, like the genealogical records still being intact, so Jesus could trace his lineage back to David, Judah and Abraham. (And Adam). See Matt 1 and Luke 2.

Next, a common language, called the “lingua franca” throughout the known word, being Greek. The Bible was written in Greek, the gospel was communicated everywhere through Greek by missionaries like Paul, Barnabus and Silas.

Next, the Pax Romana. That was the peace of Rome. The military might of Rome, who got rid of bandits on the roads, pirates on the seas, made it safe for missionaries to travel.The gospel was spread quickly, because it was not a dog eat dog world. A bit earlier, a bit later and Paul might have been killed.

There are other reasons the 1st century was the fullness of time. I can look it up, if you want. Suffice it to say, God knew what he was doing.

Finally, the moral law was never done away with. It is just summed up in “love the Lord your God with all our heart, strength,mind and will, and your neighbor as yourself.” The ceremonial laws and rituals are what was done away with, Jesus having fulfilled those laws, making them obsolete!

”When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.” Hebrews 8:13

 

[FenceMan]

The Bible simply says that "when the fulness of time was come" God sent His Son. Which means that God had a specific time in mind. You will still have to ask God "Why?"

Maybe the key is in the very phrase "fullness of time". What is the fullness of time from God's perspective? In other words, why did what happened beforehand have to happen beforehand for Jesus to come?

I've given this some thought and have come to a possible answer...

One thing that is little taught in churches today is that there was an Old Testament equivalent to the Great Commission that God gave to the Israelites. They weren't supposed to simply teach their own children his Law, but God intended for them to go to other peoples and teach them about Yahweh as well. Very little is known about how much this actually happened, but it is significant that there have been found ancient synagogues in places as far away as China...! Interaction between China and Israel goes back to around 200BC at least. So obviously, somehow the word got around, whether through Israelites who traveled to these places or through trade routes.

The whole intention of God giving the Jews the Law was to reveal to them that even with means made to achieve holiness before Him, they would still fail miserably. A huge portion of the Old Testament is about the Jews and other nations who have failed to live up to His standards and the punishment as a consequence - all balanced out with his mercy and forgiveness and willingness to give second chances.

Is it possible, then, that the fullness of time came when knowledge of God's Law had reached the furthest parts of the earth, thus preparing the nations for Jesus and the New Covenant? That, now that many people were at least somewhat aware of their inadequacies, they were now ready to embrace the ultimate forgiveness and salvation that Jesus brought about?

Maybe I'm way off... But it's fun to think about. I think there's a lot of ancient history we know nothing about.

 

[gdyloves]

Wow FM,

What a wonderful, thoughtfully articulated and honest question. And a very good one at that. I suppose there are many different opinions as to the answer. But in an attempt to share my views absent from religious traditions or doctrinal thought, I would like a crack at it.

I personally believe the Bible is a written journey into the natural mind of man. That the purpose of the Word is to expose to our selves the natural inclinations of an animal with free will. Ultimately an animal with do what it needs to do to survive, even if it means harm to other animals around them. Eventually natural beings with destroy themselves as nature clearly shows. But if a natural being is controlled, if it has instructions which cause it to deny the impulse to serve itself, it can live in perpetuity. And what kind of a place would eternal life be if those in it couldn't control their natural self serving self.


Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.


So in a spiritual sense, we are all born into darkness. As a child we do not even have a sense of right and wrong accept what our parents "Teach" us. A child who grows up with no instructions will do what it needs to do to survive. Stealing and lying are as natural for a child as crying. So in that respect, cultures(parents) do determine the good vs. evil in the natural human. I don't believe there is a natural "deep down" discernment apart from our life's experiences.

But also in a Spiritual sense, God created Light. And deemed the Light "Good", not the darkness. I think this represents the "Word" that became flesh. He divided the light from the darkness. Or divided the Good, from the darkness (Evil), and called the Light "Good".

It seems the creator God of the Bible wants men to make a "choice" between His Word "Light" and our natural self "Darkness".

He gave Eve His Word (Light) and also allowed her to be tested by the serpent. (Darkness) And gave her a circumstance to choose. She chose darkness as it is written.

The Word which became flesh in the person of Jesus explains why.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Any parent knows little children do not like being told what to do. This is a natural human trait. Paul explains.

Rom. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against GodLight) for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh(Darkness) cannot please God.(Light)

In 1 Cor. 10 Paul speaks about how the Old Testament writings are examples to us.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

I believe the Bible is a written set of examples, written for this time in history, which spell out the "choice" God gives to all mankind.

Duet. 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good,(Light) and death and evil;(Darkness)

Same as the choice God gave to eve.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life(Good, Light) and death,(Evil, Dearkness) blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, (Light)and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

This is basically the choice. Listen and trust God's Word, or don't listen and trust God's Word.

Matt. 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

I think the entire Bible is a Spiritual example of our whole life. We start in darkness, but God's Gives everyone one of us the choice to choose the Light. We all have the Word of God (Light) and the serpent (natural self)

He wants to give a gift to those who deny their natural self and "Choose Him".

The examples called the Bible are filled with every kind of circumstance you can imagine to help us with this choice. And God plainly says He will preserve the natural selfish thoughts in our mind to test us to see if we will choose Him, or do as Eve did.


Judges 2:21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua.

I believe this represents the natural thoughts we have. Selfishness, Pride, Stubbornness, rebellion, lust.

God keeps them there in this life so we can learn to choose the Good over the evil. Jesus showed the way.

Is. 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Part of the darkness we choose between are religions which come in God's Name. This is a whole other conversation but it also starts with the serpent who actually used parts of god's Word to trick Eve into refusing the Light.

I could go on and on but I think you get the point. This understanding is not widespread but the Bible comes alive when you look as His Word this way.

I hope this helps.

Excellent Post