Human intellect and the fall

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Arcade

Junior Member
Feb 9, 2018
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#1
1. When man fell, did human intellect fall with him?

2. If yes or no... to what extent should we trust human reason and human intellect?
 

Arcade

Junior Member
Feb 9, 2018
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#3
None, it is foolish (1 Cor. 1:19)
I'd address it by saying, if we can't trust human intellect "at all", how do we trust our interpretation of the Bible to know that it is true?

Seems like we trust human intellect to the extent of interpreting the Bible, but not to the extent of having our words trusted as if they were the Bible.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#4
1. When man fell, did human intellect fall with him?

2. If yes or no... to what extent should we trust human reason and human intellect?
how smart was Adam compared to you or me?

when we read Genesis 3, the majority of people interpret it in a way that assumes Adam was a fool. how accurate is that?
if you assume that Adam was far wiser & sharper than contemporary men, possibly even unsurpassed in understanding except for by Solomon, does that change, and how does that change our comprehension of what he did and said?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
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#5
this belongs in this thread, on the first page, near the beginning of it, because any discussion on the topic needs to keep it in account:


The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man,
that they are vanity.

(Psalm 94:11)​


that's kjv; some other translations use "
worthless" in place of "vanity" -- i'm told the underlying Hebrew conveys the connotation of both English words.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
2,359
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#6
... to what extent should we trust human reason and human intellect?
For spiritual purposes human reason and intellect can be of some help, but only if the Spirit of God is ahead of them.
 

Gabriel2020

Senior Member
May 6, 2017
1,099
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#7
I've learned through the Holy Spirit that if you are not spirit filled and lead by the Holy Spirit, that if you have to lie, you will lie about things. Only a person that is Spirit filled will not lie, unless it slips up on them without a warning, then we ask God for forgiveness.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
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#8
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(1 Corinthians 2:14)

this is fact.

how would this reality be different in the absence of the fall?
does it imply exactly point (1) in the OP?

i.e. was Adam, before he sinned, able to discern the things of the Spirit, and then lost this as a result of sin?
if so, was this gradual loss, or immediate & total?



also in this saying, we have explicitly the reply to '
leaning on human understanding for interpretation of scripture' -- not so. it is interpreted by the Spirit. false doctrine is a sign that such doctrine has not been arrived at through the spirit, but by the natural man, or doctrine of demons. the converse? can right doctrine be arrived at without the Spirit?
 

laymen

Senior Member
Apr 6, 2014
680
102
43
faithlife.com
#9
how smart was Adam compared to you or me?

when we read Genesis 3, the majority of people interpret it in a way that assumes Adam was a fool. how accurate is that?
if you assume that Adam was far wiser & sharper than contemporary men, possibly even unsurpassed in understanding except for by Solomon, does that change, and how does that change our comprehension of what he did and said?

i would say Adam and Eve more knowledgeable in the things of the Lord.


Satan was the most cunning angel even convinced of another angels
 
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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,555
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#10
1. When man fell, did human intellect fall with him?

2. If yes or no... to what extent should we trust human reason and human intellect?
1. Probably; I don't think we'll know for sure until our full redemption. At the very least it became sinful, rebellious toward God.

2. We should trust them significantly, but only to a point, beyond which they exalt themselves against the knowledge of God. God gave us intellect and reasoning; we should not reject them as evil any more than we should reject our bodies as evil. We are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds... not by the disregarding of them.
 

Arcade

Junior Member
Feb 9, 2018
13
1
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#11
So that people know my stance:

I'm a left-leaning Christian. I think ideas through each day. All of this naturally leads me to see the merit of intellect and reason. Even if the potential of reason is limitless or almost limitless, it doesn't mean humans have thought about every idea yet.

Someone in my Introduction thread asked me to make a thread on whatever I like, so I did and I asked questions. I'm going to play it safe since I'm a New Member though and only reply to things that have real "meat" and don't get into a battle of "You did this / No you did this" back-and-forthing.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#12
1. When man fell, did human intellect fall with him?

2. If yes or no... to what extent should we trust human reason and human intellect?
I believe so.....even the smartest among man only use like 15% to 18% of their brain.......
 

slave

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2015
6,307
1,097
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#13
1. When man fell, did human intellect fall with him?

2. If yes or no... to what extent should we trust human reason and human intellect?
The mind is a part of the soul, thus we must manage it as to which Spirit influences it. If God has control of our lives spiritually, by way of Spirit to spirit in our innermost selves we have His wisdom coming thru the spirits revelations given to us by God Himself. But God then wants us to place our minds in Christ. Common sense is not spiritual discernment, nor is it part in parcel of it either. it is diametrically opposed to God, by way of the flesh - by the devils influence.

The good news is - God restores our minds in Him if we allow God to finish His workmanship in us thru the Holy Spirit. News Flash: If we do anything outside of the Holy Spirit's influence there is no spiritual value there at all. Thus, with the fall of man, and the Cross' sacrifice by Jesus our spirit has come alive, and our flesh must be muted a slave in the power of God's Lordship; The things of the flesh being put to death.

This includes never being passive in our minds. For Satan only needs a Christians mind to be passive in Christ to take ground there. A great subtle trick he uses often for those who are stagnant in righteous living. Satan would love us to not think at all and to just let him put godly reasoning in for us. Then, we only have to act upon that reasoning, for there is no other reasoning in there ... But, God would have us use our minds actively for His Name sake, and He created man's mind for just such a purpose, as we live by the Spirit/spirit now in our new creation rooted in Christ Jesus. We must remember the body has been sentenced to death along with the flesh, but God can restore the body (not the flesh) to serve His will even though it was what sinned against God, in Adams case and was sentenced to death when we physically die.

If a mans mind is in Christ, surely we can trust it. If it is a mind outside of righteousness, no matter how godly it sounds, it is of no value to the Kingdom of God because it is outside of the Spirit of Christ, and cannot be trusted - ever.
 
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Feb 7, 2017
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#14
2. If yes or no... to what extent should we trust human reason and human intellect?
Obviously, not! Only the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy (James 3.17).
On the other hand, the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth (Gen 8.21; Psalms 58.3):


  • “Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.” (Prov 3.5-7).
  • “Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths. The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.” (Isa 59.7,8).

Thus:


  • “Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.” (1Cor 3.18-20).
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
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#15
I believe so.....even the smartest among man only use like 15% to 18% of their brain.......
but is "intellect" really synonymous or directly correlated to "% brain activity" ?

is it even physical at all?
 

Laish

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2016
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#16
this belongs in this thread, on the first page, near the beginning of it, because any discussion on the topic needs to keep it in account:

The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man,
that they are vanity.

(Psalm 94:11)​


that's kjv; some other translations use "
worthless" in place of "vanity" -- i'm told the underlying Hebrew conveys the connotation of both English words.
I looking at Psalm 94:11 and also reading Genesis 1:30 where God declares all of creation to be good . It leads me to believe that man was given the adequate intellectual ability. . My thought is intellect and ones sinful behavior are not necessarily connected. I also think we may mistake innocence for a lack of intelligence.
I hope that makes sense.
Blessings
Bill
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
1,125
135
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#17
The mind is the true battlefield once we are saved. The spirit, once saved, is as righteous as it will ever be. The flesh remains wicked. Our mind aka our souls, is where change must and will occur. In my walk I am finding this change of mind (repentance) does not occur all at once but rather it seems to be a process. Thats just me, others may have experienced something different.

I say that because as our minds are renewed then our intellect becomes one with the intellect of God...

1 Corinthians 2:16 [FONT=&quot]For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

What that is saying to me is that as I use intellect to study and understand the Word and share it, then that intellect will grow and allow me understanding, thus causing more intellectual growth which brings more understanding etc.

I do realize we live in sin infected bodies in a sin infected world but thankfully we have the cure in Jesus. [/FONT]
 

Laish

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2016
1,666
448
83
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#18
1. When man fell, did human intellect fall with him?

2. If yes or no... to what extent should we trust human reason and human intellect?
I don’t believe man’s intelligence fell after or during the fall in the Garden. I believe that like man’s emotions
have been clouded by sin his intellect is clouded as well.
Blessings
Bill
 

Arcade

Junior Member
Feb 9, 2018
13
1
0
#19
The mind is the true battlefield once we are saved. The spirit, once saved, is as righteous as it will ever be. The flesh remains wicked. Our mind aka our souls, is where change must and will occur. In my walk I am finding this change of mind (repentance) does not occur all at once but rather it seems to be a process. Thats just me, others may have experienced something different.

I say that because as our minds are renewed then our intellect becomes one with the intellect of God...

1 Corinthians 2:16 [FONT=&quot]For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

What that is saying to me is that as I use intellect to study and understand the Word and share it, then that intellect will grow and allow me understanding, thus causing more intellectual growth which brings more understanding etc.

I do realize we live in sin infected bodies in a sin infected world but thankfully we have the cure in Jesus. [/FONT]
Great post. You deserve a cookie.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
13,098
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#20
I don’t believe man’s intelligence fell after or during the fall in the Garden. I believe that like man’s emotions
have been clouded by sin his intellect is clouded as well.
Blessings
Bill
wouldn't that mean that the 'clouding' began with the introduction of sin?
((re: Romans 5:12-14))