Lucifer's fall

[Locutus]

Nothing in the context speak of satan - earlier posts are incorrect and based on RC tradition and promulgated by protestants.

 

[Locutus]

We know the bible names satan in many verses, therefore there is no need to disguise the identity with epithets such as "day star" or lucifer

The arguments don't stand up.

 

[MarcR]

No such thing as a "Lucifer", it's a made up word from Jerome's Vulgate.

(Isa 14:12 KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (heylel), son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

No such thing as a "lucifer" - the reference to satan is bogus and a Christian Mythstake that needs to be thrown out.

Adam Clarke's commentary

"Verse 12.

O Lucifer, son of the morning

The Versions in general agree in this translation, and render heilel as signifying Lucifer, the morning star, whether Jupiter or Venus; as these are both bringers of the morning light, or morning stars,annually in their turn.

And although the context speaks explicitly concerning Nebuchadnezzar, yet this has been, I know not why, applied to the chief of the fallen angels, who is most incongruously denominated Lucifer, (the bringer of light!) an epithet as common to him as those of Satan and Devil. That the Holy Spirit by his prophets should call this arch-enemy of God and man the light-bringer, would be strange indeed.


But the truth is, the text speaks nothing at all concerning Satan nor his fall, nor the occasion of that fall, which many divines have with great confidence deduced from this text.

O how necessary it is to understand the literal meaning of Scripture,that preposterous comments may be prevented! Besides, I doubt much whether our translation be correct. heilel, which we translate Lucifer, comes from yalal, yell, howl, or shriek, and should be translated, "Howl, son of the morning;" and so the Syriachas understood it; and for this meaning Michaelis contends: see his reasons in Parkhurst, under halal.

Verse13.

I will ascend into heaven

I will get the empire of the whole world. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God-above the Israelites, who are here termed the stars of God.

Se the Targum of Jonathan, and R. D. Kimchi. This chapter speaks not of the ambition and fall of Satan, but of the pride, arrogance, and fall of Nebuchadnezzar."

Isaiah, writing nearly 170 years before the Babylonian captivity had no reason to be aware of Nebuchadnezzar,

הֵילֵל is derived from הָלַל , the verb to shine. It is roughly the Hebrew equivalent of adding 'er' to an English verb to make it a noun.

Jerome actually translated הֵילֵל very well, since הֵילֵל has the sense of Light-bringer.

 

[dcontroversal]

Isaiah, writing nearly 170 years before the Babylonian captivity had no reason to be aware of Nebuchadnezzar,

הֵילֵל is derived from הָלַל , the verb to shine. It is roughly the Hebrew equivalent of adding 'er' to an English verb to make it a noun.

Jerome actually translated הֵילֵל very well, since הֵילֵל has the sense of Light-bringer.

One who believes dogmatically that everything took place 1st century A.D. will not be convinced even though the Hebrew and context supports what is known...

 

[7777pinacled]

It means our fleshly nature is satan, if you can see it, most do not

Wrong,
just as paul said we wrestle(war) not against?

 

[MarcR]

We know the bible names satan in many verses, therefore there is no need to disguise the identity with epithets such as "day star" or lucifer

The arguments don't stand up.

We see from Job 38:7
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
KJV
that there is a class or type of angels called light-bringers of which Satan, before he rebelled was a member.

 

[7777pinacled]

I think I've found a spiritual kinsman. Lol

So right. Things are hidden within the Word.

[FONT=&quot]Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Christ[/FONT][FONT=&quot], doing the will of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]God[/FONT][FONT=&quot] from the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]heart;[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]



Remember that ole paul was fairly well taught of toruth before being brought into the Fold.
Do you remember chava's(eve) first words after being decieved?

 

[followjesus]

I find it a little amusing that people will talk about Bible prophecy and be fascinated about it, in general, and those prophecies often contain some whiff of the devil at work, but when you ask a question about when the devil fell or was denied access to heaven... it "doesn't matter".

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."


when Jesus rose from the dead and was seated at Gods right Hand, satan the accuser was removed forever.

 

[followjesus]

He was kicked out of heaven before time began on earth,for he was in the garden of Eden and tempted Eve.

he appears before God as an accuser several times in the ot. Job of course, But also in the prophets. satan is seen standing before the Lord, to accuse man. Jesus overcame sin and death because it was satans power over mankind to keep us in death by sin. Jesus then became an advocate for us after casting away our accuser, Now we have one beside God that is advocating for us rather than accusing us.

 

[7777pinacled]

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."


when Jesus rose from the dead and was seated at Gods right Hand, satan the accuser was removed forever.

And he answered and spoke to me, saying,
"This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel, saying:
'Not by military force and not by physical strength, but by My spirit,' says the Lord of Hosts.


Amen, Amen

 

[stonesoffire]

Wrong,
just as paul said we wrestle(war) not against?

Flesh is circumcised isn't it Pin?

 

[7777pinacled]

Flesh is circumcised isn't it Pin?

Not if you are a woman,
in PaRDeS or any other exegesis(hermenuetics) we are not to take away from the plain meaning and apply it back onto scripture.

 

[stonesoffire]

I saw that...

Just as bad as the other though......yer got to stay away from dispensationalists.

Yer might want to unlike this...

ok. Not yet sure why though.

 

[stonesoffire]

A second joker?? Do you have any Scripture that says that?

Is not our human nature fallen? When I hear it's Satan, I don't think literally Satan, but part of the world spirit and under the influence of the prince of the power of the 'air.

Why would this be wrong? Is why we need to be die with Jesus Christ and becrisen in His life.

 

[stonesoffire]

Not if you are a woman,
in PaRDeS or any other exegesis(hermenuetics) we are not to take away from the plain meaning and apply it back onto scripture.

Men and women both produce works of a fallen nature. If you think in literal terms of flesh, you will say what you just said.

Wrong.

 

[7777pinacled]

Not if you are a woman,
in PaRDeS or any other exegesis(hermenuetics) we are not to take away from the plain meaning and apply it back onto scripture.

or as i was once inspired{directed to share, "haggadah compliments halacha"

 

[jb]

What year was Lucifer denied access to heaven?

You might find This study helpful...

 

[7777pinacled]

Men and women both produce works of a fallen nature. If you think in literal terms of flesh, you will say what you just said.

Wrong.

i know, and i am ashamed of the sins of my past.
I have confessed the Lord Yeshua is the Holy One of Yisrayl, Adonai, Son, Ruachh Haqodosh(Holy Spirit as One.
The Lord of Host is my redeemer

I was once an unbeliever of God.
the prince of power of air deceived me in public schooling with the subtlety of a psychological manipulater.
Its been awhile back, but in another forum i put forth a question in their christian subforum titled, " is evolution the current philosophers stone"?

I will only say that the subforum was closed in a short amount of time, because the enemy did not want others to come to the Light of Truth.

 

[Locutus]

We see from Job 38:7
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
KJV
that there is a class or type of angels called light-bringers of which Satan, before he rebelled was a member.

Still no need to assign morning star to satan - their is not one mention in the NT about Isa 14:13 to link with satan.

 

[7777pinacled]

You might find This study helpful...

[FONT=&quot]The eternal God is your refuge,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] and underneath are the everlasting arms.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He will drive out your enemies before you,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] saying, ‘Destroy them!’


[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]I Love your choice of verse, encouraging and well timed.

Blessings Always,[/FONT]