Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 108
Like Tree68Likes

Bible Discussion Forum

Ask (or answer) Bible questions here. Join or start a Bible discussion now!

Thread: Lucifer's fall

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    February 9th, 2018
    Posts
    13
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Lucifer's fall

    What year was Lucifer denied access to heaven?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
    Join Date
    February 10th, 2017
    Age
    65
    Posts
    3,461
    Rep Power
    80

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    No such thing as a "Lucifer", it's a made up word from Jerome's Vulgate.

    (Isa 14:12 KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (heylel), son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    No such thing as a "lucifer" - the reference to satan is bogus and a Christian Mythstake that needs to be thrown out.

    Adam Clarke's commentary

    "Verse 12.


    O Lucifer, son of the morning

    The Versions in general agree in this translation, and render heilel as signifying Lucifer, the morning star, whether Jupiter or Venus; as these are both bringers of the morning light, or morning stars,annually in their turn.

    And although the context speaks explicitly concerning Nebuchadnezzar, yet this has been,
    I know not why, applied to the chief of the fallen angels, who is most incongruously denominated Lucifer, (the bringer of light!) an epithet as common to him as those of Satan and Devil. That the Holy Spirit by his prophets should call this arch-enemy of God and man the light-bringer, would be strange indeed.


    But the truth is, the text speaks nothing at all concerning Satan nor his fall, nor the occasion of that fall, which many divines have with great confidence deduced from this text
    .

    O how necessary it is to understand the literal meaning of Scripture,that preposterous comments may be prevented! Besides, I doubt much whether our translation be correct. heilel, which we translate Lucifer, comes from yalal, yell, howl, or shriek, and should be translated, "Howl, son of the morning;" and so the Syriachas understood it; and for this meaning Michaelis contends: see his reasons in Parkhurst, under halal.

    Verse13.

    I will ascend into heaven

    I will get the empire of the whole world. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God-above the Israelites, who are here termed the stars of God.

    Se the Targum of Jonathan, and R. D. Kimchi. This chapter speaks not of the ambition and fall of Satan, but of the pride, arrogance, and fall of Nebuchadnezzar."
    SovereignGrace and jimd like this.

  3. #3
    Member jimd's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 9th, 2017
    Age
    78
    Posts
    43
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    No such thing as a "Lucifer", it's a made up word from Jerome's Vulgate.

    (Isa 14:12 KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (heylel), son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    No such thing as a "lucifer" - the reference to satan is bogus and a Christian Mythstake that needs to be thrown out.

    Adam Clarke's commentary

    "Verse 12.


    O Lucifer, son of the morning

    The Versions in general agree in this translation, and render heilel as signifying Lucifer, the morning star, whether Jupiter or Venus; as these are both bringers of the morning light, or morning stars,annually in their turn.

    And although the context speaks explicitly concerning Nebuchadnezzar, yet this has been,
    I know not why, applied to the chief of the fallen angels, who is most incongruously denominated Lucifer, (the bringer of light!) an epithet as common to him as those of Satan and Devil. That the Holy Spirit by his prophets should call this arch-enemy of God and man the light-bringer, would be strange indeed.


    But the truth is, the text speaks nothing at all concerning Satan nor his fall, nor the occasion of that fall, which many divines have with great confidence deduced from this text
    .

    O how necessary it is to understand the literal meaning of Scripture,that preposterous comments may be prevented! Besides, I doubt much whether our translation be correct. heilel, which we translate Lucifer, comes from yalal, yell, howl, or shriek, and should be translated, "Howl, son of the morning;" and so the Syriachas understood it; and for this meaning Michaelis contends: see his reasons in Parkhurst, under halal.

    Verse13.

    I will ascend into heaven

    I will get the empire of the whole world. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God-above the Israelites, who are here termed the stars of God.

    Se the Targum of Jonathan, and R. D. Kimchi. This chapter speaks not of the ambition and fall of Satan, but of the pride, arrogance, and fall of Nebuchadnezzar."
    OK, does this give us a hint as to who satan is?

  4. #4
    Senior Member joefizz's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 23rd, 2017
    Age
    25
    Posts
    10,440
    Rep Power
    178

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    No such thing as a "Lucifer", it's a made up word from Jerome's Vulgate.

    (Isa 14:12 KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (heylel), son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    No such thing as a "lucifer" - the reference to satan is bogus and a Christian Mythstake that needs to be thrown out.

    Adam Clarke's commentary

    "Verse 12.


    O Lucifer, son of the morning

    The Versions in general agree in this translation, and render heilel as signifying Lucifer, the morning star, whether Jupiter or Venus; as these are both bringers of the morning light, or morning stars,annually in their turn.

    And although the context speaks explicitly concerning Nebuchadnezzar, yet this has been,
    I know not why, applied to the chief of the fallen angels, who is most incongruously denominated Lucifer, (the bringer of light!) an epithet as common to him as those of Satan and Devil. That the Holy Spirit by his prophets should call this arch-enemy of God and man the light-bringer, would be strange indeed.


    But the truth is, the text speaks nothing at all concerning Satan nor his fall, nor the occasion of that fall, which many divines have with great confidence deduced from this text
    .

    O how necessary it is to understand the literal meaning of Scripture,that preposterous comments may be prevented! Besides, I doubt much whether our translation be correct. heilel, which we translate Lucifer, comes from yalal, yell, howl, or shriek, and should be translated, "Howl, son of the morning;" and so the Syriachas understood it; and for this meaning Michaelis contends: see his reasons in Parkhurst, under halal.

    Verse13.

    I will ascend into heaven

    I will get the empire of the whole world. I will exalt my throne above the stars of God-above the Israelites, who are here termed the stars of God.

    Se the Targum of Jonathan, and R. D. Kimchi. This chapter speaks not of the ambition and fall of Satan, but of the pride, arrogance, and fall of Nebuchadnezzar."
    Then what was his "original" name clever Corg?
    God I am but your servant to command have your holy spirit have me speak truth!
    If you don't believe in true love then please don't tell me not to believe in it because I believe it to be real.
    Jesus your sacrifice is worth more than everyone's works.
    satan ye vile tempter seek me as your target and I'll be waiting with a bible in hand,a song in my heart,and truth ringing in your ears forever.
    Derail,randomness and humor=Joefizz the king of fizzy randomness.


  5. #5
    Senior Member joefizz's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 23rd, 2017
    Age
    25
    Posts
    10,440
    Rep Power
    178

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    Quote Originally Posted by jimd View Post
    OK, does this give us a hint as to who satan is?
    It gives us a hint as to what "doesn't matter" satan or devil whatever he's called he's not as important as God/Jesus.
    God I am but your servant to command have your holy spirit have me speak truth!
    If you don't believe in true love then please don't tell me not to believe in it because I believe it to be real.
    Jesus your sacrifice is worth more than everyone's works.
    satan ye vile tempter seek me as your target and I'll be waiting with a bible in hand,a song in my heart,and truth ringing in your ears forever.
    Derail,randomness and humor=Joefizz the king of fizzy randomness.


  6. #6
    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
    Join Date
    July 18th, 2017
    Age
    75
    Posts
    3,537
    Rep Power
    115

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcade View Post
    What year was Lucifer denied access to heaven?
    We are not told, and it is really none of our business. As to Locutus saying "there is no such thing as a Lucifer", he should go and have a chat with the Luciferians. They will light a lucifer for him.
    Chester likes this.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
    Join Date
    February 10th, 2017
    Age
    65
    Posts
    3,461
    Rep Power
    80

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    Satan is not "Lucifer" the text where Jerome invented the word is speaking of Nebuchadnezzar..
    SovereignGrace likes this.

  8. #8
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    February 9th, 2018
    Posts
    13
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    I find it a little amusing that people will talk about Bible prophecy and be fascinated about it, in general, and those prophecies often contain some whiff of the devil at work, but when you ask a question about when the devil fell or was denied access to heaven... it "doesn't matter".
    dcontroversal likes this.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
    Join Date
    July 18th, 2017
    Age
    75
    Posts
    3,537
    Rep Power
    115

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    Satan is not "Lucifer" the text where Jerome invented the word is speaking of Nebuchadnezzar..
    Like I said, have a chat with the Luciferians, and they will light a lucifer for you.

    One thing is certain: Lucifer/Satan is not a being to be worshipped, nor is he anyone to be treated lightly. He is a very powerful being and the enemy of our souls. The Bible describes him as “the devil [who] prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour” (1 Peter 5:8). Those who get involved with him will eventually regret it, as he will devour their souls as a reward for their worship. “Resist him,” Peter exhorts in verse 9, “standing firm in the faith.” The faith he means is faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, because He alone can save us from hell, the ultimate destination of all who dabble in Luciferianism.

    https://www.gotquestions.org/Luciferianism.html
    Last edited by Nehemiah6; 1 Week Ago at 12:09 AM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
    Join Date
    July 18th, 2017
    Age
    75
    Posts
    3,537
    Rep Power
    115

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcade View Post
    I find it a little amusing that people will talk about Bible prophecy and be fascinated about it, in general, and those prophecies often contain some whiff of the devil at work, but when you ask a question about when the devil fell or was denied access to heaven... it "doesn't matter".
    Well it does not matter because we are not told anything about this matter. It would be idle speculation to discuss that, and idle speculation is not encouraged by God.
    joefizz likes this.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
    Join Date
    February 10th, 2017
    Age
    65
    Posts
    3,461
    Rep Power
    80

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    As can be seen from the KJV the translators while following Jerome's Vulgate chose to alert the reader to actual Hebrew wording of O' day star - which means that to insert a name here is totally without merit:


    SovereignGrace likes this.

  12. #12
    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 28th, 2016
    Age
    46
    Posts
    4,439
    Rep Power
    129

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    I have the Nave's topical bible and he attributes Lucifer to Nebuchadnezzar. I have seen Lucifer being attributed to Belshazzar, too.
    Locutus likes this.
    "What the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies."

    Thomas Cranmer

    "A time will come when instead of shepherds feeding the sheep, the church will have clowns entertaining the goats."

    Charles Spurgeon

    “The chief danger that confronts the coming century will be religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God, heaven without hell.”

    William Booth

  13. #13
    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
    Join Date
    July 18th, 2017
    Age
    75
    Posts
    3,537
    Rep Power
    115

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    I have the Nave's topical bible and he attributes Lucifer to Nebuchadnezzar. I have seen Lucifer being attributed to Belshazzar, too.
    The context of the passage where "Lucifer" is found makes it crystal clear that it is not about any human being. Only the highest angel in heaven -- a cherub -- could imagine any of this or speak about being like the most High God. And the rest of Scripture shows us that Satan desires the worship which rightly belongs to God. He even tried to get the Son of God to worship him.

    For thou hast said in thine heart,
    I will ascend into heaven,
    I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
    I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
    I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
    I will be like the most High...

    Here is the background to these blasphemous thoughts (Ezek 28:13-15)

    Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone
    wasthy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was foun
    d in thee.

    Because similar blasphemous thoughts were also in the minds of the kings of Babylon and Tyre, they are connected to Lucifer's evil thoughts, but it should be clear that there was only one "anointed cherub" who rebelled against God and became ha Satan -- the Adversary.
    Dan58, 20 and Chester like this.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
    Join Date
    February 10th, 2017
    Age
    65
    Posts
    3,461
    Rep Power
    80

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    Wrong, the text is using hyperbole and flowery language typical of the prophets when they describe things - in this case a powerful ruler - nothing to do with satan at all at all.

    We see Jesus using similar language:

    Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

    Does anybody really believe that the Capernaum boys were floating around in the heavenlies?
    SovereignGrace likes this.

  15. #15
    Senior Member joefizz's Avatar
    Join Date
    April 23rd, 2017
    Age
    25
    Posts
    10,440
    Rep Power
    178

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcade View Post
    I find it a little amusing that people will talk about Bible prophecy and be fascinated about it, in general, and those prophecies often contain some whiff of the devil at work, but when you ask a question about when the devil fell or was denied access to heaven... it "doesn't matter".
    Glad I amused you lol,but seriously do you think God wants us speculating on "trivial things" like "names" particularly regarding"satan"?
    After all considering he is cast out we all "know his eventual fate" better to trust in "God's promises than something as "trivial" as "satan's name" in king james bible his proper name is lucifer,in others he is probably referred to as primarily satan or the devil,learning his name doesn't tell us anything concerning him so as I said in a sense it "doesn't matter" his fall is "important to note" his "name" not so much.
    God I am but your servant to command have your holy spirit have me speak truth!
    If you don't believe in true love then please don't tell me not to believe in it because I believe it to be real.
    Jesus your sacrifice is worth more than everyone's works.
    satan ye vile tempter seek me as your target and I'll be waiting with a bible in hand,a song in my heart,and truth ringing in your ears forever.
    Derail,randomness and humor=Joefizz the king of fizzy randomness.


  16. #16
    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
    Join Date
    February 10th, 2017
    Age
    65
    Posts
    3,461
    Rep Power
    80

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    This is how stupid this "lucifer" bizness gets - we have Jerome in the Vulgate naming satan lucifer but then applying the same name to Christ in Peter's letter:





    2 Pet 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:


    Will the real "lucifer" stand up..

    But hey, stick with the traditions of the RC church by all means.
    SovereignGrace likes this.

  17. #17
    Member jimd's Avatar
    Join Date
    December 9th, 2017
    Age
    78
    Posts
    43
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    Quote Originally Posted by joefizz View Post
    It gives us a hint as to what "doesn't matter" satan or devil whatever he's called he's not as important as God/Jesus.
    You are missing the whole point, satan is a man, Nebuchadnezzar

  18. #18
    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
    Join Date
    July 18th, 2017
    Age
    75
    Posts
    3,537
    Rep Power
    115

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    Quote Originally Posted by jimd View Post
    You are missing the whole point, satan is a man...
    That is DEFINITELY NOT what the Bible reveals. So do you just make up your beliefs as you go along?

  19. #19
    Senior Member stonesoffire's Avatar
    Join Date
    November 24th, 2013
    Age
    71
    Posts
    7,566
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    219

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    In Hebrew it is morning star, son of the dawn.

    interesting!
    Magenta and 20 like this.
    1Th 3:12 May the Lord greatly increase your love for each other and for all people, just as we love you.


    1Th 3:13 Then your hearts will be strong, blameless, and holy in the presence of God, who is our Father, when our Lord Jesus appears with all his saints.





    Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might.

  20. #20
    Senior Member stonesoffire's Avatar
    Join Date
    November 24th, 2013
    Age
    71
    Posts
    7,566
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    219

    Default Re: Lucifer's fall

    Quote Originally Posted by jimd View Post
    You are missing the whole point, satan is a man, Nebuchadnezzar
    Would this mean a man controlled by Satan?
    1Th 3:12 May the Lord greatly increase your love for each other and for all people, just as we love you.


    1Th 3:13 Then your hearts will be strong, blameless, and holy in the presence of God, who is our Father, when our Lord Jesus appears with all his saints.





    Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might.

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Lucifer in the Vatican.
    By Jackson123 in forum Bible Discussion Forum
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: February 6th, 2015, 07:33 PM
  2. Michael Lucifer
    By josedoe in forum Christian Poems & Poetry
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: February 5th, 2015, 10:24 AM
  3. Who was Lucifer?
    By Jruiz in forum Miscellaneous
    Replies: 85
    Last Post: March 15th, 2014, 04:59 PM
  4. Ezekiel 28 - The King of Tyre or the Fall of Lucifer, or Both?
    By Tintin in forum Bible Discussion Forum
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: February 10th, 2013, 09:15 PM
  5. Lucifer's rebellion
    By smithbr8 in forum Bible Discussion Forum
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: October 26th, 2012, 06:36 AM