what the word "grace" will never alter.

[Ralph-]

1. You never actually answered my question.

You're showing your ignorance here. You don't have to 'go out somewhere' to be living for Christ. By God's grace, I'm living for Christ in every moment and in every situation in life. And when I fail I seek God's forgiveness and I get back up on my feet and continue onward. I have the feeling you aren't living for Christ and that's why you defend and protect 'Christians' not living for Christ but being saved nonetheless.

2. In the context, the hypocrite is a person who was never saved to begin with.

And so a person who IS saved and doesn't live for Jesus is NOT a hypocrite? Really, budman?

No rational, honest person is going to buy that garbage. But I know it's necessary to your belief that 'hypocrite' be redefined to protect the belief that grace is a license to be a hypocrite and not live for Jesus and still be saved.

But don't misunderstand. The hypocrite who goes into the fire when Jesus comes back most assuredly is not born again at that time. Whether he ever believed to begin with or not is irrelevant. You can't be a hypocrite and be saved at the same time for long. Jesus will eventually cut the believer who lives in hypocrisy off from himself because his hypocrisy is actually unbelief. That's why hypocrites will go into the fire when he returns. They were either never saved to begin with or lost their salvation because of a return to unbelief. Their hypocrisy being the sign of that unbelief.

One can serve Jesus and never be saved. See Matthew 7:21-23 where Jesus says He never knew them.

Got a liddle problem here, budman. They did NOT serve Jesus. He said they were lawless. If they were serving Jesus they would not be lawless.

The Bible says it is those who do not know Christ in a mature knowing who believe but who can fall away (soil #2). But those who grow to a mature knowing of Christ, who have roots that go down deep and who produce the fruit of the kingdom from a noble heart, they are the ones who endure to the end and are saved (soil #4).

3. Since you still sin, the term you're applying in the way you're applying it, refers to you.

The difference is I do not LIVE IN sin like I did when I was unsaved. LIVING IN sin is what the lost do. Saved people who are not hypocrites do not live in sin (if they do, they will be among the unbelieving soon).


"19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."-Galatians 5:19-21


See, when you say that any and all people who sin, saved or unsaved, are living in sin, including you, then you are saying one of two things about yourself. You are either saying you are not going to inherit the kingdom, because you say that you and everybody alive lives in sin and the passage says those who do that will not inherit the kingdom, or you are saying grace is a license that makes it so you can 'live like this' and inherit the kingdom.

So which is it, budman? Since you insist that all who sin 'live like this', including you, are you not going to inherit the kingdom of God like the passage says, or is grace a license that makes it so you can 'live like this' and inherit the kingdom? Just tell us plainly which one you believe. I know you're not going to say you live in sin and so won't inherit the kingdom, so I'm pretty sure you believe the second one, but you won't be able to admit it to yourself that your doctrine makes grace a license to 'live like this' in the sins of the flesh and still inherit the kingdom of God.

4. This is the part where you sputter "But...but...it's not the sins that matter, it's the amount of sinning!"

Actually, this is the part where you insist there is no difference between sinning as a believer and living in sin like an unbeliever and where you can't bring yourself to admit that your doctrine makes grace a license to live in sin like an unbeliever but still inherit the kingdom, even though Paul makes it clear that we are not to be deceived about this, those who live in the flesh will NOT inherit the kingdom. You are indeed deceived, budman. You can not 'live like this' and inherit the kingdom of God. Grace is not a license that make it so you can 'live like this' and inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[followjesus]

You're showing your ignorance here. You don't have to 'go out somewhere' to be living for Christ. By God's grace, I'm living for Christ in every moment and in every situation in life. And when I fail I seek God's forgiveness and I get back up on my feet and continue onward. I have the feeling you aren't living for Christ and that's why you defend and protect 'Christians' not living for Christ but being saved nonetheless.




And so a person who IS saved and doesn't live for Jesus is NOT a hypocrite? Really, budman?

No rational, honest person is going to buy that garbage. But I know it's necessary to your belief that 'hypocrite' be redefined to protect the belief that grace is a license to be a hypocrite and not live for Jesus and still be saved.

But don't misunderstand. The hypocrite who goes into the fire when Jesus comes back most assuredly is not born again at that time. Whether he ever believed to begin with or not is irrelevant. You can't be a hypocrite and be saved at the same time for long. Jesus will eventually cut the believer who lives in hypocrisy off from himself because his hypocrisy is actually unbelief. That's why hypocrites will go into the fire when he returns. They were either never saved to begin with or lost their salvation because of a return to unbelief. Their hypocrisy being the sign of that unbelief.




Got a liddle problem here, budman. They did NOT serve Jesus. He said they were lawless. If they were serving Jesus they would not be lawless.

The Bible says it is those who do not know Christ in a mature knowing who believe but who can fall away (soil #2). But those who grow to a mature knowing of Christ, who have roots that go down deep and who produce the fruit of the kingdom from a noble heart, they are the ones who endure to the end and are saved (soil #4).




The difference is I do not LIVE IN sin like I did when I was unsaved. LIVING IN sin is what the lost do. Saved people who are not hypocrites do not live in sin (if they do, they will be among the unbelieving soon).


"19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."-Galatians 5:19-21


See, when you say that any and all people who sin, saved or unsaved, are living in sin, including you, then you are saying one of two things about yourself. You are either saying you are not going to inherit the kingdom, because you say that you and everybody alive lives in sin and the passage says those who do that will not inherit the kingdom, or you are saying grace is a license that makes it so you can 'live like this' and inherit the kingdom.

So which is it, budman? Since you insist that all who sin 'live like this', including you, are you not going to inherit the kingdom of God like the passage says, or is grace a license that makes it so you can 'live like this' and inherit the kingdom? Just tell us plainly which one you believe. I know you're not going to say you live in sin and so won't inherit the kingdom, so I'm pretty sure you believe the second one, but you won't be able to admit it to yourself that your doctrine makes grace a license to 'live like this' in the sins of the flesh and still inherit the kingdom of God.



Actually, this is the part where you insist there is no difference between sinning as a believer and living in sin like an unbeliever and where you can't bring yourself to admit that your doctrine makes grace a license to live in sin like an unbeliever but still inherit the kingdom, even though Paul makes it clear that we are not to be deceived about this, those who live in the flesh will NOT inherit the kingdom. You are indeed deceived, budman. You can not 'live like this' and inherit the kingdom of God. Grace is not a license that make it so you can 'live like this' and inherit the kingdom of God.

we have to be careful about making Judgements about whether another person is living for Christ, myself, 15 years ago, i couldnt say that, and i cant say i would have been Lost then, I believed " God Loves Me, I believe that Jesus died for my sins, hes my savior" but thats all i knew to believe because no one ever actually showed me what he was saying, i had read things Like " if you Love me you will obey my commands" many times over at this point but never had actually received or perceived them, i figure i wasnt ready to accept the teaching of riughteousness, because I still liked serving sin at that time. its about Growth and maturity in Christ. and Not stifling Our progress and growth or avoid His sanctification for us.

when we create a doctrine that requires us to disbelieve what Jesus said, we have to determine if its telling us not to Believe the way, truth and Life....its not from God. all we Have to actually do is believe and come to Jesus accept Him as He presents His self to us, not How people present Him and explain Him doifferent from what He shewed us. or what He taught us. its Jesus that is Our savior and Lord, we have to be careful to accept the Judges Words. if we want to Live in the Kingdom, we have to accept the Kings decrees.

Hes not going to crush a person because we fail or are weak and slip up, as Long as they are set on Jesus and Hearing and Learning from Him and never rejecting His word, because in His teachings there is grace for when we fail or sin, Just Like john teaches, this needs to be taken as the exception and not a rule. we shouldnt then say " well im not accountable because Jesus is there to onterced for my sin. we should have a Heart for obedience, and when we sin it should convict us and point us to repenting.

if the doctrine of the Bible is " the term Grace is defined unwarranted favor" ...so anything that is teaching you to not do evil things, and to do Good things ...is not for you if you take that your trying to Earn salvation" but whether a person thinks a person is trying to earn salvation, what actually matters is are they following the Lords Word about his Kingdom and about eternal Life?

One of the best things about the Gospel compared to the Law, is that we no Longer have to judge the others among us, all Judgement Belongs to Jesus, and He will do the sorting out when He comes, and even daily in each persons Life. we have to walk according to Our own understanding, and realize another person may not be prepared as of yet. i Know i have certainly changed alot over the Last 15 years or so, but i never felt Lost or Like i was going to be Lost or go to Hell even at My worst.


Jesus doctrine is gentle and comforting when we mess up, and it teaches us how to overcome and be free of the sins we stumble in. even when We do wrong, He is still thereto teach us How to overcome the issue, its His will that we are saved. Grace doesnt end when we accept Jesus, it begins there.

to Keep judgement on our own selves when we sin, and mercy to others when they sin is imperitive, if our Judgement is shaped By the Son of God. He will Judge us when He comes.....whether salvation or condemnation. each one according to thier own Lives and situations and circumstances and level of understanding. God Knows all the secrets in us How much we Know He knows, what we Know is right and wrong, He knows. so we cant later say " i didnt Know it was sin to lie" He Knows what we Know and what we do according to that.

 

[followjesus]

You're showing your ignorance here. You don't have to 'go out somewhere' to be living for Christ. By God's grace, I'm living for Christ in every moment and in every situation in life. And when I fail I seek God's forgiveness and I get back up on my feet and continue onward. I have the feeling you aren't living for Christ and that's why you defend and protect 'Christians' not living for Christ but being saved nonetheless.




And so a person who IS saved and doesn't live for Jesus is NOT a hypocrite? Really, budman?

No rational, honest person is going to buy that garbage. But I know it's necessary to your belief that 'hypocrite' be redefined to protect the belief that grace is a license to be a hypocrite and not live for Jesus and still be saved.

But don't misunderstand. The hypocrite who goes into the fire when Jesus comes back most assuredly is not born again at that time. Whether he ever believed to begin with or not is irrelevant. You can't be a hypocrite and be saved at the same time for long. Jesus will eventually cut the believer who lives in hypocrisy off from himself because his hypocrisy is actually unbelief. That's why hypocrites will go into the fire when he returns. They were either never saved to begin with or lost their salvation because of a return to unbelief. Their hypocrisy being the sign of that unbelief.




Got a liddle problem here, budman. They did NOT serve Jesus. He said they were lawless. If they were serving Jesus they would not be lawless.

The Bible says it is those who do not know Christ in a mature knowing who believe but who can fall away (soil #2). But those who grow to a mature knowing of Christ, who have roots that go down deep and who produce the fruit of the kingdom from a noble heart, they are the ones who endure to the end and are saved (soil #4).




The difference is I do not LIVE IN sin like I did when I was unsaved. LIVING IN sin is what the lost do. Saved people who are not hypocrites do not live in sin (if they do, they will be among the unbelieving soon).


"19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."-Galatians 5:19-21


See, when you say that any and all people who sin, saved or unsaved, are living in sin, including you, then you are saying one of two things about yourself. You are either saying you are not going to inherit the kingdom, because you say that you and everybody alive lives in sin and the passage says those who do that will not inherit the kingdom, or you are saying grace is a license that makes it so you can 'live like this' and inherit the kingdom.

So which is it, budman? Since you insist that all who sin 'live like this', including you, are you not going to inherit the kingdom of God like the passage says, or is grace a license that makes it so you can 'live like this' and inherit the kingdom? Just tell us plainly which one you believe. I know you're not going to say you live in sin and so won't inherit the kingdom, so I'm pretty sure you believe the second one, but you won't be able to admit it to yourself that your doctrine makes grace a license to 'live like this' in the sins of the flesh and still inherit the kingdom of God.



Actually, this is the part where you insist there is no difference between sinning as a believer and living in sin like an unbeliever and where you can't bring yourself to admit that your doctrine makes grace a license to live in sin like an unbeliever but still inherit the kingdom, even though Paul makes it clear that we are not to be deceived about this, those who live in the flesh will NOT inherit the kingdom. You are indeed deceived, budman. You can not 'live like this' and inherit the kingdom of God. Grace is not a license that make it so you can 'live like this' and inherit the kingdom of God.

when People are not taught whats in the Bible, all sorts of strange doctrine arises....

 

[Magenta]

You're showing your ignorance here. You don't have to 'go out somewhere' to be living for Christ. By God's grace, I'm living for Christ in every moment and in every situation in life. And when I fail I seek God's forgiveness and I get back up on my feet and continue onward. I have the feeling you aren't living for Christ and that's why you defend and protect 'Christians' not living for Christ but being saved nonetheless.

LOL. No, the problem is that you contradict yourself at every turn, and make allowances for yourself that you ignorantly and hypocritically refuse to extend to others.

And so a person who IS saved and doesn't live for Jesus is NOT a hypocrite? Really, budman?

You are a hypocrite to suggest you do not have to have good works to show others you are saved, i.e. not going anywhere or doing anything but living in God's grace still the same, which you malign endlessly in the NBW thread.

No rational, honest person is going to buy that garbage.

We don't buy your garbage, that's for sure.

 

[followjesus]

It means it does not HAVE to mean it literally saves you.
This is the point you can not grasp. Once saved always saved makes people unable to understand the necessity of works in salvation. I mean they are literally unable to understand how you have to be obedient to be saved and that not mean you are trying to save yourself. It's a spirit at work in the church causing this blindness.




(I don't know what type 2 works salvation is.)

Of course there are those who are busy working their way to the kingdom, thinking their work earns them a place there. And some of them are in the church too. But to think this is some widespread problem in the church is way way off.

Paul's grace teaching makes for good sermon material for preachers and teachers struggling to find something to talk about at their next meeting, but it's hardly addressing a problem among church attendees. The exact opposite is the problem among church attendees today. They think grace is their license to have no works with their faith when Jesus comes back because salvation is not by works.




I am not being naive. The argument that water baptism literally saves a person is not being made in this thread. Does that mean nobody anywhere does not do that? No, of course not.

If you people can't understand the argument from this post below there really is no hope of you ever seeing the argument: So ask yourself, mailmandan, "how can it be that what happened did not happen by the power of literally doing what they were told to do, yet what happened would not have happened had they not done what they were told to do?"

Wrestle that question to the ground and you'll understand the argument.





Come on. You pull this out and paste it every time you want to address an argument that is not even being made. Nobody is saying there is no one anywhere who says the power of works literally save us. Of course there are those who think that. And some of them are in the church too. You're using that to make it so EVERYBODY is saying the power of works literally save us. You are the one who is not seeing the truth of the situation. You're seeing works salvation behind every rock and tree. That is the sign of being indoctrinated in a narrow and false theology. The inability to comprehend your opponent's argument outside of what you've been told it is, and seeing opposition to your sacred doctrine in everything people say are the signs you are the victim of a false and misleading indoctrination.




Come on, mailman.......CATHOLIC, for heavens sake! That's like saying unbelievers think works save, which no one is even going to argue with.

Don't let your past history with the Catholics cause you to see their doctrine hiding behind every tree and bush. Start listening to what people are actually saying, and don't add to what they're not saying.




Well, once saved always saved does do that, whether you want to admit it or not. Just look at the obedience problem we have in the church today, and how quick Christians are to blast anyone who dare suggest they are actually making progress in their growth toward Christlikeness, and how works don't matter because (all together now) "salvation is not by works". And you're going to tell me once saved always saved doesn't promote grace as a license to sin?

osas omits everything in scripture that clearly says to the church " if you continuie Living Like you used to, doing the same works of darkness, you will not inherit the Kingdom of God" " repent or you too will all perish" or the very clear and repetitive scriptures they intentionally never address saying agains and again Jesus, paul, peter, John....every soul of man will be judged according to His deeds. "

because the foundational belief of osas is " i could never possibly ever no matter what i do " Lose salvation" then it leads to " ive already been Judged by the cross" i dont have to face Jesus for my deeds whether good or Bad...if so its works for salvation and no longer a gift."


i giggle thinking of noah who was given Grace, warned and instructed by God of what was coming and How to survive it....and then Noah arguing " But Lord you said grace? what gives Now your saying i have to build an ark ? huh? naw thats not the agreement Lord, your too good to flood the earth Like you said....


Naw Noah believed Gods Word and followed Gods instructions and Noah, became the Hier of the " righteousness of faith" so many osas folks talk about. the righteousness of Faith that comes By Believing the Word of God Believing His warning of the coming destruction, which he was very clear about, and the instructions to get aboard His ark, so that we too can be the heirs of the righteousness that is By Faith Like Noah who was saved By Grace and through Faith."

Had God not favored Noah, and warned Him of the flood, and instructed Him How to build the ark, Noah would have died. He only was saved Because

GENESIS 6 " But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
...v13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14Make thee an ark of gopher wood

Noah believed God so He of course in v 22 does as the Lord commanded Him

How do we Know this is an example of the righteousness of Faith?

Hebrews 11:7 " By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."


quite simply faith will always Believe Gods word, and if we believe Jesus warning and teaching, we also will be heirs of the righteousness of faith. Like abraham who always obneyed Because He believed God. it had nothing to do with the Law it hadnt yet come, He simply believed Gods promise to Him that id He got up and followed Gods wirections God would bless all people and make abraham the father of many nations.....

had abraham believed it and stayed Home choosing not to follow Gods directions, there is no promise left the promise is " Get up and go to where i show you...and I will make you a great nation. abraham the man of faith of course Gets up packs and leaves as God said.


we have to do that with Jesus, we have to follow where He is leading us and receive the promises He made according to the promises themselves not what someone 1900 years later tells us the promises are defined by.

it was also Grace to abraham He didnt do anything God Just comes to Him and makes the promise and abrahamk Believes God.


we Know the Law was not yet Given, and further we Know that the Law was not followed By abraham. " thou shalt not Lie"

Genesis 20 " And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister: and Abimelech king of Gerar sent, and took Sarah. 3But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife."


Abraham was the man of faith He followed Gods Word before the Law was given, we also Have Gods Word that is not of the Law to Hear and follow.

 

[Lighthearted]

we have to be careful about making Judgements about whether another person is living for Christ, myself, 15 years ago, i couldnt say that, and i cant say i would have been Lost then, I believed " God Loves Me, I believe that Jesus died for my sins, hes my savior" but thats all i knew to believe because no one ever actually showed me what he was saying, i had read things Like " if you Love me you will obey my commands" many times over at this point but never had actually received or perceived them, i figure i wasnt ready to accept the teaching of riughteousness, because I still liked serving sin at that time. its about Growth and maturity in Christ. and Not stifling Our progress and growth or avoid His sanctification for us.

when we create a doctrine that requires us to disbelieve what Jesus said, we have to determine if its telling us not to Believe the way, truth and Life....its not from God. all we Have to actually do is believe and come to Jesus accept Him as He presents His self to us, not How people present Him and explain Him doifferent from what He shewed us. or what He taught us. its Jesus that is Our savior and Lord, we have to be careful to accept the Judges Words. if we want to Live in the Kingdom, we have to accept the Kings decrees.

Hes not going to crush a person because we fail or are weak and slip up, as Long as they are set on Jesus and Hearing and Learning from Him and never rejecting His word, because in His teachings there is grace for when we fail or sin, Just Like john teaches, this needs to be taken as the exception and not a rule. we shouldnt then say " well im not accountable because Jesus is there to onterced for my sin. we should have a Heart for obedience, and when we sin it should convict us and point us to repenting.

if the doctrine of the Bible is " the term Grace is defined unwarranted favor" ...so anything that is teaching you to not do evil things, and to do Good things ...is not for you if you take that your trying to Earn salvation" but whether a person thinks a person is trying to earn salvation, what actually matters is are they following the Lords Word about his Kingdom and about eternal Life?

One of the best things about the Gospel compared to the Law, is that we no Longer have to judge the others among us, all Judgement Belongs to Jesus, and He will do the sorting out when He comes, and even daily in each persons Life. we have to walk according to Our own understanding, and realize another person may not be prepared as of yet. i Know i have certainly changed alot over the Last 15 years or so, but i never felt Lost or Like i was going to be Lost or go to Hell even at My worst.


Jesus doctrine is gentle and comforting when we mess up, and it teaches us how to overcome and be free of the sins we stumble in. even when We do wrong, He is still thereto teach us How to overcome the issue, its His will that we are saved. Grace doesnt end when we accept Jesus, it begins there.

to Keep judgement on our own selves when we sin, and mercy to others when they sin is imperitive, if our Judgement is shaped By the Son of God. He will Judge us when He comes.....whether salvation or condemnation. each one according to thier own Lives and situations and circumstances and level of understanding. God Knows all the secrets in us How much we Know He knows, what we Know is right and wrong, He knows. so we cant later say " i didnt Know it was sin to lie" He Knows what we Know and what we do according to that.

Well said. We all slip up. Sanctification is a process. We slip up less and less as we grow in our personal and spiritual relationship with Jesus.
I believe it grows fruit that shows to non-believers.
It's about getting back up and getting back to our relationship in order to run with Christ to the end.
Falling down is only bad when you stay down...but watch out. Laying down for too long can be expensive and God may let you face some trials to get you to lean back into Him. Let's not forget that He will finish the work He has begun in us to the end ! He is the author and finisher of our faith! Amen!

 

[Ralph-]

LOL. No, the problem is that you contradict yourself at every turn, and make allowances for yourself that you ignorantly and hypocritically refuse to extend to others.

Okay, good, you believe that 'hypocrite' can apply to believers too. Can you explain that to Budman please? He says only the unsaved are hypocrites.

You are a hypocrite to suggest you do not have to have good works to show others you are saved, i.e. not going anywhere or doing anything but living in God's grace still the same

"the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23gentleness, self-control"-Galatians 5:22-23

Why do I HAVE to go out of my house to walk in these things?

By God's grace, I walk in these things at home, at work, at the grocery store, at the park, at my neighbor's house, in traffic, in this forum...every where I am. I don't need to 'be out somewhere' to be walking in the Spirit in obedience to God. I can do that both at home and out of my home. What I need to do is walk by the Spirit, or else I'm in contempt of the free gift. And if I persist in my contempt for the free gift and resist all God's efforts to bring me to repentance I will eventually be cut off from Christ for unbelief and won't be saved when He returns. I will be assigned to the lake of fire with the unbelievers.

 

[mailmandan]

It means it does not HAVE to mean it literally saves you.

Well not literally in the sense that there are saving properties in the water that literally wash away our sins when we are water baptized, yet those who teach we must be water baptized in order to be saved believe that we are literally saved the moment that we are water baptized, based on the work of getting water baptized. Either way, it's still saved by water baptism.

This is the point you can not grasp.

I can grasp more than you think. Don't forget, I grew up in the Roman Catholic church and had even spent some time in the so called church of Christ prior to my conversion, so none of your arguments are anything new or enlightening. Romans Catholics teach "baptismal regeneration" yet Campbellites soften it to "baptismal remission."

Once saved always saved makes people unable to understand the necessity of works in salvation.

Works FOLLOW salvation and are the fruit, not the root of salvation. Faith is the ROOT of salvation and works are the FRUIT. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. When you say "necessity" you make works the basis or means of receiving salvation or maintaining salvation. You can play word games and try to sugar coat it all you want, but I'm not fooled.

I mean they are literally unable to understand how you have to be obedient to be saved and that not mean you are trying to save yourself. It's a spirit at work in the church causing this blindness.

So how much obedience does it take? Where do you draw the line in the sand and say you were "obedient enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you?

(I don't know what type 2 works salvation is.)

Salvation maintained by works. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is NOT BY WORKS (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

Of course there are those who are busy working their way to the kingdom, thinking their work earns them a place there. And some of them are in the church too. But to think this is some widespread problem in the church is way way off.

That is mainly a description of people who attend churches which are in the category of false religions and cults. There are people who believe they will be saved by works, yet are under the delusion that does not mean they earn salvation, not even in part, as I mentioned in post #185.

Paul's grace teaching makes for good sermon material for preachers and teachers struggling to find something to talk about at their next meeting, but it's hardly addressing a problem among church attendees. The exact opposite is the problem among church attendees today. They think grace is their license to have no works with their faith when Jesus comes back because salvation is not by works.

Not sure what church you attend, but I don't see that problem at the church that I attend or with Christians that I know. If someone has no works at all with their faith, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not genuine faith (James 2:14-18).

I am not being naive. The argument that water baptism literally saves a person is not being made in this thread. Does that mean nobody anywhere does not do that? No, of course not.

You are being naive that such people are teaching salvation by works. Regardless of how one believe's that water baptism saves, such people who teach that we must be water baptized to be saved and that acts of obedience precedes salvation are teaching salvation by "water and works." Period.

If you people can't understand the argument from this post below there really is no hope of you ever seeing the argument:

I find that statement to be ironic.

So ask yourself, mailmandan, "how can it be that what happened did not happen by the power of literally doing what they were told to do, yet what happened would not have happened had they not done what they were told to do?"

We are told to do many things in scripture and there is a difference between being told to do something in order to become saved (Acts 10:43; 16:31) and being told to do something AFTER we have been saved (Acts 10:47-48).

Wrestle that question to the ground and you'll understand the argument.

It's you who is in a wrestling match. I don't need to wrestle anything to the ground because I already understand.

Come on. You pull this out and paste it every time you want to address an argument that is not even being made. Nobody is saying there is no one anywhere who says the power of works literally save us. Of course there are those who think that. And some of them are in the church too. You're using that to make it so EVERYBODY is saying the power of works literally save us. You are the one who is not seeing the truth of the situation. You're seeing works salvation behind every rock and tree. That is the sign of being indoctrinated in a narrow and false theology. The inability to comprehend your opponent's argument outside of what you've been told it is, and seeing opposition to your sacred doctrine in everything people say are the signs you are the victim of a false and misleading indoctrination.

It sounds to me like you are the victim of a false and misleading indoctrination in which you see a license to sin behind every rock and tree. There are many people who teach works salvation in one form or another. Difference in style, but same in substance -- "works based" false gospel.

Come on, mailman.......CATHOLIC, for heavens sake! That's like saying unbelievers think works save, which no one is even going to argue with.

Come on with what? Catholics basically lead the way in works salvation and they don't even seem to realize they are teaching salvation by works, as I explained in post #185. Believing that works save is the sign of a "nominal" Christian/unbeliever. So no one is arguing that works save, yet these same people fight against salvation through "faith in Christ alone" and try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, but they are not teaching salvation by works. Yeah right! Do you really think that I was born yesterday?

Don't let your past history with the Catholics cause you to see their doctrine hiding behind every tree and bush. Start listening to what people are actually saying, and don't add to what they're not saying.

I've listened to what they have said - "must be water baptized in order to be saved," "obedience leads to salvation," works of obedience help to save us" etc.. and these statements did not come from Catholics. Spare me the lecture. I'm not that gullible. I've also listened to Mormons, JW's, SDA's etc.. and they all teach their version of salvation by works.

Well, once saved always saved does do that, whether you want to admit it or not. Just look at the obedience problem we have in the church today, and how quick Christians are to blast anyone who dare suggest they are actually making progress in their growth toward Christlikeness, and how works don't matter because (all together now) "salvation is not by works". And you're going to tell me once saved always saved doesn't promote grace as a license to sin?

Not everyone who attends church is a genuine Christian and there are many churches that teach false gospels which are full of "nominal" Christians. That's a problem! You can blame everything on OSAS all you want and accuse believers who are in the OSAS camp of teaching a license to sin all you want (that's your boogie man!), but it still doesn't change the fact that many people (who even profess to be Christians) teach salvation by works, even though they deny it.