what the word "grace" will never alter.

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U

UnderGrace

Guest
#61
No need to change you language, it is just good to know were are using words the same way. So many arguments on CC because people understand the meaning of words differently.

I would have to disagree though biblically speaking, the ekklesia is only the body of believers (called out assembly) therefore it is a homogeneous group, from a spiritual point of view.

I personally do not believe that the ekklesia should have ever been made into a man made institution..this has caused a lot of problems throughout historical Christianity.

I think if you surrounded yourself with only believers you would not have this disconnect in your life....just some helpful advice. ;)


I will make sure to use the word 'assembly', like I had started to recently, all the time now when referring to the church in the world with it's leaven of unbelievers and their doctrine.

At this time in history the assembly of God's people (composed of both believers and unbelievers) is being overrun with unbelievers. The signature of the unbelievers among us is their hypocrisy. Yet it is argued vehemently that hypocrisy means nothing to salvation, not knowing that Jesus said hypocrites are going to the place of weeping and the gnashing of teeth when he comes back.
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#62
Then why is the church known for it's hypocrisy, not it's right living?
Fleshly minded maybe?
+++
Romans 12:1-2
King James Version(KJV)


1.)I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2.)And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
+++

Also man looks at the outward appearances,GOD looks at the heart.
+++

Romans 4:1-2
King James Version(KJV)


1.)What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2.)For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
 
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mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#63
Because they are showing a fake, godless church that their hypocritical lack of works is the sign that they do not have the grace they claim they have. If they had it they would be living it and defending works, not attacking works as you trying to save yourself.

No, no. The hostility comes from the grace 'alone' (faith that has no works CAN save) side. They are then very successful at provoking the 'grace apart from works with works resulting' believers to start acting like them. Then they accuse us of being the bad people.

Anybody who's had to live with an emotionally abusive person can see right through their technique. It's a technique that comes right from the work of demons in a person. You can tell a tree by it's fruit is no truer than it is in those who push this 'don't have to do anything' grace doctrine. They most certainly show by how they treat people that they surely do believe that how they act means nothing at all. Little knowing they are showing themselves to be not saved.
Who is THEY? Hostility is a two way street in here. Man is saved by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) yet genuine faith is evidenced, substantiated, confirmed by works (James 2:14-26).
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#64
Who is THEY? Hostility is a two way street in here. Man is saved by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) yet genuine faith is evidenced, substantiated, confirmed by works (James 2:14-26).
:)Hopefully Ralph understands.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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#67
How does that change what God has said in every book of the bible that He will judge each person according to thier deeds? isnt this a bible discussion forum? why then, is it so difficult for people here to discuss what the Bible actually says, rather than explaining How grace makes it all insignificant?
God will judge everyone. Believers and non believers.

You say by their deeds.

Will God judge believers and unbelievers differently.
If so how so?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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#68
Grace will alter everything. The only thing it will not alter or should I say cover is the the total rejection of Jesus.

What I find interesting having been on this forum for a while and on a few threads.

Is grace on either side of the equation.

The so called 'faith only saves" are abusing grace and saying that it teaches greasy grace.
Then the so called "workers for salvation" are abusing grace are adding works to what Jesus has done on the cross and our faith.
What is the abuse of grace?

To add something to it or take away something from it.

To at add works to saving grace is an abuse.
The use saving grace to sin all we want is an abuse.

But as Paul says

Romans 6:1-4


Dead to Sin, Alive to God
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


Ephesians 2:4-10


4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#69
It's all about grace! No Christian can walk the walk without out grace. Yes we still have to do the walking but it is only by the grace of God we can.

Of Good Works


Good works are only such as God hath commanded in His holy Word, and not such as, without the warrant thereof, are devised by men, out of blind zeal, or upon any pretence of good intention.

(Micah vi. 8; Rom. xii. 2; Heb. xiii. 21; Matt. xv. 9; Isa. xxix. 13; 1 Pet. i. 18; Rom. x. 2; John xvi. 2; 1 Sam. xv. 21, 22, 23.)


II. These good works, done in obedience to God's commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith: and by them believers manifest their thankfulness, strengthen their assurance, edify their brethren, adorn the profession of the Gospel, stop the mouths of the adversaries, and glorify God, whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto; that, having their fruit unto holiness, they may have the end, eternal life.

James ii. 18, 22; Ps. cxvi. 12, 13; 1 Pet. ii. 9, 1 John ii. 3, 5; 2 Pet. i. 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, l0; 2 Cor. ix. 2; Matt. v. 16; Tit. ii. 5, 9, 10, 11, 12; 1 Tim. vi. l; 1 Pet. ii. 15; 1 Pet. ii. 12; Phil. i. 11; John xv. 8; Eph. ii. 10; Rom. vi. 22.

III. Their ability to do good works is not at all of themselves, but wholly from the Spirit of Christ. And that they may be enabled thereunto, besides the graces they have already received, there is required an actual influence of the same Holy Spirit, to work in them to will and to do of His good pleasure: yet are they not hereupon to grow negligent, as if they were not bound to perform any duty, unless upon a special motion of the Spirit; but they ought to be diligent in stirring up the grace of God that is in them.

John xv. 4, 5; Ezek. xxxvi. 26, 27; Phil. ii. 13; Phil. iv. 13; 2 Cor. iii. 5; Phil. ii. 12; Heb. vi. 11, l2; 2 Pet. i. 3, 5, 10, 11; Isa. lxiv. 7; 2 Tim. i. 6; Acts xxvi. 6, 7; Jude ver. 20, 21.

IV. They, who in their obedience attain to the greatest height which is possible in this life, are so far from being able to supererogate, and to do more than God requires, as that they fall short of much which in duty they are bound to do.

Luke xvii. 10; Neh xiii. 22; Job ix. 2, 3; Gal. v. 17.

V. We cannot, by our best works, merit Pardon of sin, or eternal life at the hand of God, by reason of the great disproportion that is between them and the glory to come; and the infinite distance that is between us and God, whom, by them, we can neither profit, nor satisfy for the debt of our former sins, but when we have done all we can, we have done but our duty, and are unprofitable servants; and because, as they are good, they proceed from His Spirit; and as they are wrought by us, they are defiled, and mixed with so much weakness and imperfection, that they cannot endure the severity of God's judgment.

Rom. iii. 20; Rom. iv. 2, 4, 6; Eph. ii. 8, 9; Tit. iii. 5, 6, 7; Rom. viii. 18; Ps. xvi. 2; Job xxii. 2, 3; Job xxxv. 7, 8; Luke xvii. 10; Gal. v. 22, 23; Isa. lxiv. 6; Gal. v. l7; Rom. vii. 15, 18; Ps. cxliii. 2; Ps. cxxx. 3.

VI. Yet notwithstanding, the persons of believers being accepted through Christ, their good works also are accepted in Him, not as though they were in this life wholly unblameable and unreprovable in God's sight; but that He, looking upon them in His Son, is pleased to accept and reward that which is sincere, although accompanied with many weaknesses and imperfections.

Eph. i. 6; 1 Pet. ii. 5; Exod. xxviii. 38, Gen iv. 4 with Heb. xi. 4; Job ix. 20; Ps. cxliii. 2; Heb. xiii. 20, 21; 2 Cor. viii. 12; Heb. vi. 10, Matt. xxv. 21, 23.

VII. Works done by unregenerate men, although, for the matter of them, they may be things which God commands, and of good use both to themselves and others: yet, because they proceed not from a heart purified by faith; nor are done in a right manner according to the Word; nor to a right end, the glory of God; they are therefore sinful, and cannot please God, or make a man meet to receive grace from God. And yet, their neglect of them is more sinful, and displeasing unto God.

2 Kings x. 30, 31; 1 Kings xxi. 27, 29; Phil. i. 15, 16, 18; Gen. iv. 5 with Heb. xi. 4, 6; 1 Cor. xiii. 3: Isa. i. l2; Matt. vi. 2, 5, l6: Hag. ii 14; Tit. i. 15; Amos v. 21, 22; Hosea i. 4; Rom. ix. 16; Titus iii. 5; Ps. xiv. 4: Ps. xxxvi. 3; Job xxi. 14, 15; Matt. xxv. 41, 42, 43, 45; Matt. xxiii. 23.

Westminster confession of faith, ch 16. (1647)
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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#71
The up hill battle is fought against people like you who teach salvation by "water and works" and others who teach salvation by "grace plus law, faith plus works."

Salvation is by grace through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE (Romans 3:22-28; 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..).
To be fair, it you give an accusation some of would like to know where it is found (in this thread, please - like give us a post # and a quote where the person says they believe in "water and works" or "grace plus law", or "faith plus works").
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#73
If a person claimed to be saved by believing in what they see or know is the truth, despite having no substance of the thing they believe is the true, then wouldn't the scriptures be evidence that what they believe to be faith is not faith since hope that is seen is not hope.

If faith comes by hearing and hearing by Son of God then of course they see that I taken the scripture out of context because they didn't see the Spirit of truth when they heard the Son of God by faith.

6 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
when you take Gods Plan into consideration you can see what is meant by all wil Hear the voice of Gods Son

matthew 24:14 " And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."


so then this makes sense

romans 10 " So then
faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."

the gospel is Jesus Word, thats what is sent to the ends of the earth, still missionaries carry the gospel to the furthest reaches, How few in the world have not Heard the name of Jesus ? Faith comes because we accept what He said about salvation. we can now step into His presence because of Grace, we dont have to flee and be afraid Like at Horeb because we stand in grace rather than in the law that condemns and convicts us of guilt so we cant stand in the light.

because of Grace we understand if we come to Jesus He is going to say " i do not condemn you. now go and repent of sin, learn from me for i am gentle and Humble in Heart. ILove you, God the Father Loves you, i have come to Heal you, not punish You, I have come to save you, Hear my words and believe the LORD accept Me, cling to my ways learn them and guard them, keep and walk in them as you grow, but always remember that i am full of mercy so when you fall and do things wrong, you dont have to run away from my presences anymore, Just repent and stay Home with Me" I Love you im Here for you, always, i came to teach you about God and eternal Life to reveal things that are Hidden from the beginning:

we need to accept the gospel Jesus preached and then L;earn from everyone else in scripture to find harmony in ideation, Grace and truth together is salvation for man. God Loves me and had forgiven Me. and He has taught me the things God wants me to Know and believe. fporgiveness and repentance leading to obedience through the true Knowledge of God.

 
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#74
Grace cost Jesus his life: but He offers it freely to all.
He offered it freely to Noah also, because Grace is part of Gods Nature. How does Jesus himself value His sacrifice and teach others to treat it?

matthew 16 " From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."


Grace sent us a savior, Our Lord is Jesus we have to see things His way the way He taught us to see things. grace is freely given yes, it always has been. it doesnt nullify the rest of Gods Word is the thing. when God uses the word Grace, it isnt to be interpreted " therefore nothing else i said applies to you"

it seems as if Jesus speaking of His sacrifice, actually expected His followers to lay thier own selves down, and follow Him. it seems He is making this relevant in regards to Losing ones soul and saving ones Life. it seems even further Jesus is remaining consistant with so many books in the bible that when He the Judge returns He will judge each man according to thier deeds.


all im saying is How do we then create a whole doifferent salvation and claim Jesus way is falacy? He is the author of salvation after all it seems His words would then Be pretty important to understanding salvation.

He teaches us grace, and doesnt change the truth that we have to repent and live right before God. because of His grace, we can Now be saved. faith has to be present for salvation. and faith without works is dead or incomplete.


Grace should be taken in with this contextual ideation

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."


 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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#75
He offered it freely to Noah also, because Grace is part of Gods Nature. How does Jesus himself value His sacrifice and teach others to treat it?

matthew 16 " From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."


Grace sent us a savior, Our Lord is Jesus we have to see things His way the way He taught us to see things. grace is freely given yes, it always has been. it doesnt nullify the rest of Gods Word is the thing. when God uses the word Grace, it isnt to be interpreted " therefore nothing else i said applies to you"

it seems as if Jesus speaking of His sacrifice, actually expected His followers to lay thier own selves down, and follow Him. it seems He is making this relevant in regards to Losing ones soul and saving ones Life. it seems even further Jesus is remaining consistant with so many books in the bible that when He the Judge returns He will judge each man according to thier deeds.


all im saying is How do we then create a whole doifferent salvation and claim Jesus way is falacy? He is the author of salvation after all it seems His words would then Be pretty important to understanding salvation.

He teaches us grace, and doesnt change the truth that we have to repent and live right before God. because of His grace, we can Now be saved. faith has to be present for salvation. and faith without works is dead or incomplete.


Grace should be taken in with this contextual ideation

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."


In many of Paul's epistles about half of the content of the book is directly speaking about how to practically live the Christian life.
 

LibrarianLeo

Senior Member
Feb 8, 2018
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#76
Grace at no point in time changes this truth, dont be fooled.
I thought every christian Knew this, But there really is no other salvation apart from what Jesus offered according to His word. that will never change because thats where Grace exists. God bless you. trust in Gods mercy, but believe Gods word of warning, it is wisdom to do so.
Jesus did redeem us and there is nothing more than His works done for us, while we remained sinners.

7It is rare indeed for anyone to die for a righteous man,
though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.
8But God proves His love for us in this:
While we were

still sinners,

Christ died for us.
9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood,
how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#77
God will judge everyone. Believers and non believers.

You say by their deeds.

Will God judge believers and unbelievers differently.
If so how so?
the same. the thing for a christian is, we have the opportunity, to repent and have all our transgressions cast away and remembered no More because of Jesus sacrifice. there is a condition upon that though it is the conditions He set. its simply to Believe what He said of Himself and salvation and learn from Him, believe the things He teaches. and the things He teaches are really never discussed all that much, because so many people label it the Law. when really its Gods Word for salvation sent in the savior.

we have to understand Jesus is the source of Grace, s His presentation of Grace is the truth. I forgive you, now repent and follow me and i will give you eternal Life"

grace doesnt say " i forgive you so you can now refuse accountability. if we repent, He will forgive us, and if we sin tomorrow, and repent He will forgive us, if we obey Him and forgive and be merciful when others offend us, we can depend on mercy lavished upon us. all we need to do is learn what Jesus said about everthing and then keep that as pur Hme base for understanding then everything else has harmony and makes sense.


Believers are Judged according to what they Know to be right and wrong, unbelievers are Judged to what God said is right and wrong whether they know it or Not. the good news is if you look at what Paul is saying it tells us the same thing Jesus has taught about not judging others, and not condemning others because if you judge others you will be judged.

see what paul is saying Leading into romans 2,

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"



forgive and you will be forgiven, judge not and you will not be judged "_P
 
Jun 1, 2016
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#78
Grace is distorted when it is no longer sufficient to save

We cannot earn salvation
who said salvation is earned? you should go comment that to someone who said that. the turht is offensive to some, not my fault that i dont thing the word grace gets defined as the great ommiter of all God said it isnt, and what Jesus Christ said about salvation, should open eyes. because He is the author of it, therefore is Jesus says you must repent or you too will all persih...thats true regarldess of someone later saying " thats not grace" . Jesus understands Grace and salvation much betterthan youm joseph prince or any other false teacher explaining why He had it wrong.

if you are offended by the Grace Jesus offers and the conditions He himself places on salvation, i think the issue would be yours to reconcile woith Gods Word. no one has said anyone earns salvation, you hear that when you see Gods Word saying " you must not continue in sin anyomore you are free from sin now live right. you then make that : someone claiming we earn salvation"


why do the goggers even participate in the bdf your arguments are always against what the bible says why this or that doesnt apply because of Grace, why no word is valid because of Grace doesnt it bother you guys when you are directly denying Jesus way that says " you must repent and do Gods will saying " Lord" is not enough"


How does Grace change what He said who Gave grace? its almost like the more scruipture the gog sees the more set aganst the word of God they become in the name of grace. terribly deceiving doctrine i hope people see soon what it really is .
 
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#79
Jesus did redeem us and there is nothing more than His works done for us, while we remained sinners.

7It is rare indeed for anyone to die for a righteous man,
though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.
8But God proves His love for us in this:
While we were

still sinners,

Christ died for us.
9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood,
how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!

there is His word for us, thats what you seem to not be able to accept, but why would your saviors word, not be good enough for you to accept? did Grace not come through Jesus? is He noe the One who Loves us? so then why are His words the Ones we have to explain arent right, arent for you, will only condemn you ect...?


grace is good, when its distorted into what it isnt its terrible. if grace means Gods words doesnt apply it isnt from God. when you make the statement " all there is is what Jesus did On the cross" that is you saying " nothing Jesus said applies, nothing else spoken in the scriptures applies.


sort of Like digging a hole for a fpundation to be laid and then explaining the House is complete. grace isnt everything, and when its distorted its a brick wall that hinders any sanctifying work of the spirit. because that doesnt come when you are insisting Gods word dpesnt apply tp salvation.


i will always trust the salvation Jesus explained and then died to offer, he teaches plenty for us to do, hes the One to believe and trust, if the word grace is suppsed to get people away from what Jesus said, its because the serpent said it,
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#80
why do the goggers even participate in the bdf your arguments are always against what the bible says why this or that doesnt apply because of Grace, why no word is valid because of Grace doesnt it bother you guys when you are directly denying Jesus way that says " you must repent and do Gods will saying " Lord" is not enough"
What is a gogger? Jason, you are funny, you know. You often harp on how people must accept all of God's Word while you deny the Deity of Christ, but then are offended when people point out that fact to you, even though you yourself often say you would rather offend someone with the truth than remain silent. So why are you here, when you do not accept what the Bible says as Truth? You may as well ask yourself the same question ;)