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#81
In many of Paul's epistles about half of the content of the book is directly speaking about how to practically live the Christian life.
absolutely true more than Half actually, and His epistles are all designed the same way his message when condesed is " God does not condemn you for your sins, now go and leave your life of sin"

paul teaches forgiveness and repentance and obedience based on that forgiveness and the Loive shown in Christ toward us, Paul doesnt teach us to continue on in sin, He actually warns us strictly that to continue living in sin wil exclude us from the Kingdom. ephesians 5 galatians 5. the changs is not " Now we arent accounbtable for our actions" the change is in us " Now you are not a slave to sin, you now Have the spirit of God you can choose to follow instead and put the flesh desires to death.


we now have power to really repent and live right in Our Fathers eyes, and more than that its our role as christians to live right before God and act in Love toward others which fulfills the righteousness of the Law. and Keeps the commandments. paul was not creating a new doctrine he was preaching the things Jesus had taught by revelation because he was chosen Later. Grace doesnt change the fact we have to stop sinning sinning is serving satans will, we cant continue on like that and call Jesus Lord at the same time we have to serve the Lord and call Jesus our lord.


e have to see sin for what it really is, suffering and death, violence and murder , rape, abuse and every evil is its source. we cant serve sin and serve God at the same time Christ Has given us the power to follow Him, thats our goal and grace is what gave us that salvation. now faith saves
 
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Ralph-

Guest
#82
No need to change you language, it is just good to know were are using words the same way. So many arguments on CC because people understand the meaning of words differently.

I would have to disagree though biblically speaking, the ekklesia is only the body of believers (called out assembly) therefore it is a homogeneous group, from a spiritual point of view.

I personally do not believe that the ekklesia should have ever been made into a man made institution..this has caused a lot of problems throughout historical Christianity.

I think if you surrounded yourself with only believers you would not have this disconnect in your life....just some helpful advice. ;)
Actually, the best word to use is 'kingdom', but I rarely use it because that really loses people, even though that is the term Jesus used to describe this polluted collection of called out ones residing in the world.

"so shall it be at the end of the age. 41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. "-Matthew 13:41-42
 
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Ralph-

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#83
In many of Paul's epistles about half of the content of the book is directly speaking about how to practically live the Christian life.
It's surprising how many 'no rules apply anymore' Christians don't realize this.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
#84
I think if you surrounded yourself with only believers you would not have this disconnect in your life....just some helpful advice. ;)
But I like hanging out in Christian forums. :p
 
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Ralph-

Guest
#85
Man is saved by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) yet genuine faith is evidenced, substantiated, confirmed by works (James 2:14-26).
Not any more. The new grace teaching in the church says your works don't matter and do not indicate anything either way about your salvation because salvation is not by works. You are an old school Calvinist 'P' believer. You need to get with the times.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#86
Not any more. The new grace teaching in the church says your works don't matter and do not indicate anything either way about your salvation because salvation is not by works. You are an old school Calvinist 'P' believer. You need to get with the times.

That's nothing new Ralph.. Antinomianism has been around for a long long time. There's nothing really new, just repackaged errors.

Now that has been said, it must be noted that those who base their salvation on their works (and especially legalists)think that the Gospel is antinomian. Martin Lloyd jones hits the nail on the head!


[h=1]“If your preaching of the gospel of God's free grace in Jesus Christ does not provoke the charge from some of antinomianism, you're not preaching the gospel of the free grace of God in Jesus Christ.”[/h]
 
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#87
That's nothing new Ralph.. Antinomianism has been around for a long long time. There's nothing really new, just repackaged errors.

Now that has been said, it must be noted that those who base their salvation on their works (and especially legalists)think that the Gospel is antinomian. Martin Lloyd jones hits the nail on the head!


i think the simplicity of what we are supposed to believe has really gotten convoluded and led far from truth. its been the same Since Jesus began preaching His ministry. if you notice , the things He is teaching them is the doctrines the apostles taught in thier epistles. " forgive as God has forgiven you" is from Jesus teachings about forgiving others thier sins, because He has forgiven Us.

all of pauls instructions about having " gentleness and self control" about bearing others burdens ans honoring others above ourselves....those are all teachings in the gospel taught By Jesus. all that paul teaches, is revelation to the gentiles of those same things that were given to Jews. the simplest thing any Christian can do and all that is needed is to Beliueve The One God sent to speak His word of salvation and truth the the World, for all who will believe His testimony and everything He did, and is and showed us in His death and resurrection.

as far as correct Christian belief its as simple as learning what Christ said and learning, Believing and walking in it, because thats what it says. For man to change, we have to let the truth into Our minds and Hearts, the things Jesus taught in the Gospel, are the Only thing we can never part from, no one in the Bible parts from anything He said. Paul states that if anyone will not consent and agree to the Words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, they are fools who Know Nothing...because Jesus taught " whoever hears my words and does practices them is a wise man...but He who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man,


our salvation our renewed mind comes to us, because we believe in Jesus and we accept His words becauase He gave His Life to purchase us from eternal damnation. we owe Jesus everything evryday in every way. that should be enough to break our stubborn wall and bring us into submission to God so He can lift us up. we have to grasop that what Jesus was teaching, is the Gospel sent from God in Heaven, to manking to offer salvation to them and to offer new birth into a child of God, of course who will Live forever because the Only Begotten, has shown us what a child of God is.


we are indeed saved By Gods grace, we are not saved by what we want Grace to be that parts from whwat God says it is. grace isnt a lens to erase the context of verses, its the power to Live right and be a child of God through Faith in Jesus Christ. were saved the way the author set forth. were Judged the way the Judge set forth, were sanctified the way the mediator set forth, we have a Lord and we Have His word to Believe and Live in. everything that has a value to man will lead them to the Gospel Jesus set forth because thats Gods Way and His truth an His Life.


Jesus said I am the way truth and Life, before He sacrificed His Life. He also said salvation comes to those who will hear my word, and Keep them. He taught baptism of the spirit before the cross, His death and resurrection as a ransom for sin before the cross, he taught Like paul how were supposed to Live and the same way is taught by Paul. its only that there are different words and examples but the same exact principles.

Jesus taught do not Judge lest ye be Judged so Paul taught that. Jesus taught repent of sin, so Paul taught that. its Just that Paul wasnt wouting the gospel, he says " do not obey the lusts of your flesh, adultery, ffornication, deceit Herecy gossip slander, grudges, immorality revelry ect lascivousness" its the same thing as saying you must repent of sin. " paul is Just using different words.

the apostles taught as Jesus commissioned them to teach the same principles He taught them unto salvation before and after the cross the gospel begins when Jesus begins His ministry, even really with His birth, and even before that in all the abundance of prophecy that is fulfilled on every page of the gospel. its as simple for a christian as learning and keeping Jesus words in Our minds until they do the work of planting faith to follow. Gods Word is Power to the One who believes. we really have alot of power to be free of our old sinful minds and Hearts, we simply have to be willing to take our open closet, and our flaws into the Light of the gospel and Gods Word will work in us to change our minds process from wrong to right and our thinking from Christ will lead us in the right things.


we dont have to be perfect people, he Knows were not, we have to accept both His grace and His truth and correction of our minds and Hearts. if we will let His word in, with His Blood, we will be saved and actually gain freedom from things that have been issues for a Long time and we have just sort of acceopted them as a bad flaw or habit. the Gospel can change our minds and Hearts and that changes us and our direction and leads us in truth and spirit. faith saves and it comes from the Word of God
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#88
i think the simplicity of what we are supposed to believe has really gotten convoluded and led far from truth. its been the same Since Jesus began preaching His ministry. if you notice , the things He is teaching them is the doctrines the apostles taught in thier epistles. " forgive as God has forgiven you" is from Jesus teachings about forgiving others thier sins, because He has forgiven Us.

all of pauls instructions about having " gentleness and self control" about bearing others burdens ans honoring others above ourselves....those are all teachings in the gospel taught By Jesus. all that paul teaches, is revelation to the gentiles of those same things that were given to Jews. the simplest thing any Christian can do and all that is needed is to Beliueve The One God sent to speak His word of salvation and truth the the World, for all who will believe His testimony and everything He did, and is and showed us in His death and resurrection.

as far as correct Christian belief its as simple as learning what Christ said and learning, Believing and walking in it, because thats what it says. For man to change, we have to let the truth into Our minds and Hearts, the things Jesus taught in the Gospel, are the Only thing we can never part from, no one in the Bible parts from anything He said. Paul states that if anyone will not consent and agree to the Words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, they are fools who Know Nothing...because Jesus taught " whoever hears my words and does practices them is a wise man...but He who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man,


our salvation our renewed mind comes to us, because we believe in Jesus and we accept His words becauase He gave His Life to purchase us from eternal damnation. we owe Jesus everything evryday in every way. that should be enough to break our stubborn wall and bring us into submission to God so He can lift us up. we have to grasop that what Jesus was teaching, is the Gospel sent from God in Heaven, to manking to offer salvation to them and to offer new birth into a child of God, of course who will Live forever because the Only Begotten, has shown us what a child of God is.


we are indeed saved By Gods grace, we are not saved by what we want Grace to be that parts from whwat God says it is. grace isnt a lens to erase the context of verses, its the power to Live right and be a child of God through Faith in Jesus Christ. were saved the way the author set forth. were Judged the way the Judge set forth, were sanctified the way the mediator set forth, we have a Lord and we Have His word to Believe and Live in. everything that has a value to man will lead them to the Gospel Jesus set forth because thats Gods Way and His truth an His Life.


Jesus said I am the way truth and Life, before He sacrificed His Life. He also said salvation comes to those who will hear my word, and Keep them. He taught baptism of the spirit before the cross, His death and resurrection as a ransom for sin before the cross, he taught Like paul how were supposed to Live and the same way is taught by Paul. its only that there are different words and examples but the same exact principles.

Jesus taught do not Judge lest ye be Judged so Paul taught that. Jesus taught repent of sin, so Paul taught that. its Just that Paul wasnt wouting the gospel, he says " do not obey the lusts of your flesh, adultery, ffornication, deceit Herecy gossip slander, grudges, immorality revelry ect lascivousness" its the same thing as saying you must repent of sin. " paul is Just using different words.

the apostles taught as Jesus commissioned them to teach the same principles He taught them unto salvation before and after the cross the gospel begins when Jesus begins His ministry, even really with His birth, and even before that in all the abundance of prophecy that is fulfilled on every page of the gospel. its as simple for a christian as learning and keeping Jesus words in Our minds until they do the work of planting faith to follow. Gods Word is Power to the One who believes. we really have alot of power to be free of our old sinful minds and Hearts, we simply have to be willing to take our open closet, and our flaws into the Light of the gospel and Gods Word will work in us to change our minds process from wrong to right and our thinking from Christ will lead us in the right things.


we dont have to be perfect people, he Knows were not, we have to accept both His grace and His truth and correction of our minds and Hearts. if we will let His word in, with His Blood, we will be saved and actually gain freedom from things that have been issues for a Long time and we have just sort of acceopted them as a bad flaw or habit. the Gospel can change our minds and Hearts and that changes us and our direction and leads us in truth and spirit. faith saves and it comes from the Word of God

I think I know what your saying, and if I'm right I agree. Christians as whole need to focus on Holiness and what that means in their/our daily walk. Being obedient is essential in the Christian life.

I do think that the broad (very generally) church has forgotten Holiness! Me included! Of course the blame lies at our feet..are we living Holy Lives..I suppose that's something we need to examine ourselves. Holiness takes grit and determination, but only by God's grace!
 
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#89
It's surprising how many 'no rules apply anymore' Christians don't realize this.

its really the fruit of a doctrine that tells them what paul is saying, and never shows them what paul is actually saying.

ever Heard of the " Grace revolution" or " the covenant of Grace" " the different Gospel thats the real gospel, and Jesus Gospel, just isnt the gospel....."

its fruit is a blindfold that makes a person see clear scripture and still say no no you have to see this scripture in this other book to know that that doesnt apply. then you ask " well...why did the same Guy write it, in the same letter to the same church? and then....someone quotes romans 8: 1 " there is no condemntation in christ" then you say well doesnt Jesus tell us what it is to be in christ n John chapter 15? ....no ..no that was before He died its the law of moses, only what paul said is for the church"....

so then you say well romans 2 paul is pretty clear about eternal Judgement according to our deeds. then it becomes, no..no... that isnt in the "original texts" the translation is just fooling people , really no one will be judged " ......


some of the strangest conversations ive ever had, are the circles people will go in avoiding anything you are taught to actually do.....because " its a work and your fallen from Grace and trying to save yourself"


its like the serpent convinced people " if you think you are supposed to not sin, and do the right things....you are foolish friend, thats not grace its a work of the flesh"

just a really confused message sort of Like seeing scripture through a kaleidoscope its hard to make any sense of anything when the message is so set against actually "not doing evil and doing good instead" as if a person thinks " I need to stop telling Lies and stealing because thats what God sword says and I believe" then that person Has somehow missed it and trying to be thier own savior lol its just a backwards ideation from the start. doing good is labeled a self work....How does One discuss the bible when thats the foundation of the persons argument?

How do you discuss scripture when the idae is " nothing actually applies because of Grace" im not sure how people believe the message that is explaining this stuff, but i know where it originated...thats for" sss...sss..sssssertain. "

its really a replica of what the false prophets did to the people to lead them astray and bring babylonian rule over them......
 
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#90
I think I know what your saying, and if I'm right I agree. Christians as whole need to focus on Holiness and what that means in their/our daily walk. Being obedient is essential in the Christian life.

I do think that the broad (very generally) church has forgotten Holiness! Me included! Of course the blame lies at our feet..are we living Holy Lives..I suppose that's something we need to examine ourselves. Holiness takes grit and determination, but only by God's grace!

yea im thankful for Grace, my thing is grace will never teach us to not believe Jesus and what He taught. thats what many do, not saying you, but thats what many do is use the word Grace, and take that to then omit everything the word says about accountability, about repentance, righteousness, always the subject is " do we really need to be baptized for salvation"

or " do we actually need to repent " or " How can one lose salvation"

to me, I hear " Did God really say, you need to repent?"..surely Grace means you dont need to do anything"

" Did God really say you must not eat any fruit in the garden? surely you will not die, it is good for you"

theres really a pattern to the enemies ways he uses Gods word against believers even tried using it against Jesus. Peter also says some were using pauls letters to destort the gospel into lasciviousness into thier own destruction. i see that happening alot now with pauls writings. hes a deceiver He can always be identified because His dopctrine will always explain why no one needs to do what God said, he can use a million reasons but the goal is the same sinde the beginning . he wants to kill us Gods will is to save us.....and we Have free will to choose.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#94
yea im thankful for Grace, my thing is grace will never teach us to not believe Jesus and what He taught. thats what many do, not saying you, but thats what many do is use the word Grace, and take that to then omit everything the word says about accountability, about repentance, righteousness, always the subject is " do we really need to be baptized for salvation"

or " do we actually need to repent " or " How can one lose salvation"

to me, I hear " Did God really say, you need to repent?"..surely Grace means you dont need to do anything"

" Did God really say you must not eat any fruit in the garden? surely you will not die, it is good for you"

theres really a pattern to the enemies ways he uses Gods word against believers even tried using it against Jesus. Peter also says some were using pauls letters to destort the gospel into lasciviousness into thier own destruction. i see that happening alot now with pauls writings. hes a deceiver He can always be identified because His dopctrine will always explain why no one needs to do what God said, he can use a million reasons but the goal is the same sinde the beginning . he wants to kill us Gods will is to save us.....and we Have free will to choose.

Well, I think if someone has had their heart renewed and come to faith, should take holiness very seriously.. because to know God is to love God. He is Holy, and tell's us to be in our walk with Him. A part of Holiness is acknowledging our sin and sins. Some do have a very lackadaisical attitude towards sin, or just plain antinomian. So I agree with you there.

No Christian in their right mind, will deny the basics of the christian faith, so they will agree with scripture 100% - the essentials.
I agree repentance is also essential for the Christian.

However, we have to bear in mind that many brothers and sisters who live by grace have different opinions on secondary issues.

Regarding 'How can one lose your salvation', I think you are referring to 'once saved always saved'. It's how antinomians give an air of authority to what they believe. That does not mean that 'once saved always saved' is wrong. But the wrong use of the doctrine is! There are differences but being reformed I would believe the bible teaches 'perseverance of the saints'.

So I would not say that 'Once saved always saved' is wrong. But I would disagree with the doctrine being used as a license to sin.



 
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Ralph-

Guest
#95
That's nothing new Ralph.. Antinomianism has been around for a long long time. There's nothing really new, just repackaged errors.

This is true.
The new grace movement is really just an element of Gnosticism revisited in our time.



Now that has been said, it must be noted that those who base their salvation on their works (and especially legalists)think that the Gospel is antinomian. Martin Lloyd jones hits the nail on the head!

“If your preaching of the gospel of God's free grace in Jesus Christ does not provoke the charge from some of antinomianism, you're not preaching the gospel of the free grace of God in Jesus Christ.”
The sad part being, people in the church take this to mean that ALL grace teachings are not open to the charge of being antinomian. Paul's grace teachings, of course, were not. But clearly the 'new' grace movement in the church is open to the charge of teaching antinomainism.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#96
What is a gogger? Jason, you are funny, you know. You often harp on how people must accept all of God's Word while you deny the Deity of Christ,
Does he deny the Deity of Christ? :eek:

who said salvation is earned? if you are offended by the Grace Jesus offers and the conditions He himself places on salvation
When one places a list of conditions (check list of works) on receiving salvation, then there is merit on our part in receiving salvation, which means we earn it (at least in part). What are the list of conditions that Jesus Himself mentions in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? Repent does not need to be spelled out here because those who BELIEVE IN HIM (entrust their spiritual well being to, have faith in, trust in) have already repented in the process of changing their mind and choosing to BELIEVE IN HIM.

Any works which follow saving faith in Christ would be works of merit if they were the basis or means by which we receive salvation. Believing is clearly not a work that merits our salvation. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Repenting is not a work that merits our salvation either. We must first repent "change our mind" before we can believe (trust in Christ's finished work of redemption) to save us. Through repentance/faith, Christ is still the object of our complete trust in receiving salvation. If multiple acts of obedience/works which follow saving faith in Christ were the basis or means of receiving salvation, then salvation would be earned (at least in part).

doesnt it bother you guys when you are directly denying Jesus way that says " you must repent and do Gods will saying " Lord" is not enough"
It doesn't bother me when Jesus says "repent" because we must repent "change our mind" and believe the gospel in order to become saved. Repentance and faith are two sides to the same coin and are inseparable in receiving salvation. It bothers me when people re-define repent to mean "completely stop sinning or else!" Which is how those who teach sinless perfection define it. It also bothers me when people confuse God's will for us TO BECOME SAVED:

John 6:40 - "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

With God's will for us AFTER we have been saved through faith:

1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

Then teach that salvation is based on a combination of faith in Christ + the merits of our performance.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#97
To be fair, it you give an accusation some of would like to know where it is found (in this thread, please - like give us a post # and a quote where the person says they believe in "water and works"
See below:

Since water baptism is for the forgiveness of sins and salvation is based on the forgiveness of sins, how can it not be necessary for salvation?
The good news of Jesus Christ is that in the midst of the darkness of sin there is hope. A hope that if followed will lead to our salvation. We may debate on what is needed to obey but not the need to obey. There are many here who will boldly proclaim that obedience is not needed for salvation, that obedience is a by-product of salvation.
or "grace plus law", or "faith plus works").
See below:

thats just it the ten commandments are eternally valid, we Keep them through the gospel. the law of moses, that sentances sinners to immediate death, that rewuires over 300 individual tittles and ordinances those things are all fulfilled. in order that through Christ we walk in the commandments without the hindrance and condemnation of the mosaic Laws governance. the gospel absolutely upholds the validity of the ten commandments, it equally moves away from the book of the mosaic Law. replaced By the Gospels mediation of the ten commandments the covenant Law of God.
*The 10 Commandments are included in the Law of Moses and the gospel is not the 10 Commandments.

actually people create a false doctrine and omit the things Jesus Christ said and invent a doctrine that isnt there in scripture and call it the gospel. Jesus work finished? you cannot omit the words of Jesus christ and create a new salvation. and Jesus taught repentance and obedience to His word, unto eternal Life. go teach the world the same gospel i taught to you teach them to obey it. its strange that the "his finished work" doctrine doesnt appear in scripture to explain How He's already saved everyone, you have to be able to accept what the Lord said along with the cross. thats salvation
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#98
what the word of grace will never alter, is the fact that no man, by any deed, can overcome the penalty of the law. Because of this, A man is required to be justified by the sacrificial lamb, also known as Christ.

It is not grace plus works, Paul said it is one or the other, but the two can not come together as he said, if it is grace, it is no longer works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. Redemption was paid in full, if it was not. we are all lost with no hope.
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#99
See below:
Since water baptism is for the forgiveness of sins and salvation is based on the forgiveness of sins, how can it not be necessary for salvation?
He can speak for himself but I really don't think he's saying water baptism literally pays the price for salvation.

There are things to be done to be saved that are not you trying to buy your salvation. It depends on the sermon you are hearing. If the sermon you hear says get in the water and your sins will be forgiven then that's what you have to do or you're not going to receive salvation.

If a person is told a legitimate, Biblical way of how to get saved and yet they refuse to do it. That person will not receive salvation. And it has nothing to do with water being the payment that buys salvation. It has everything to do with that person not really believing or wanting what he heard.

DJ can tell us plainly if he means water baptism literally pays the required price for salvation.