so can i ask you what the Bible says of someone who says " I have faith" yet they also argue against Good works being needed? you are saying that works are needed you just are saying it differently.
what happens if there are no works? is that still faith? because you are saying faith is not genuine, without works. because the works are evidence of the faith, and its authenticity. but its confusing because you are saying faith saves us, and there is no work....yet Genuine faith will do works,........
In James 2:14, we read of one who
says/claims he has faith but has
no works (to validate his claim). Where is the fruit? That is
not genuine faith, but a
bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can
that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an
empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James
does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to
show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. ALL genuine Christians/Believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23).
often you have good things to say, but its like you are going in circles to explain the same things you are speaking against.
I try to explain things clearly.
if someone says " faith without works, is dead and a man is saved by the works. Faith produces so faith alone without the deeds is no profit. its a seed that has the potential to produce fruit, when we sow into that seed and act upon it. faith comes alive. often you are explaining details of How something takes Place, and i see alot of value but its almost like
One says " we need to do the things Jesus says we Need to do to be saved"
Faith that remains alone "barren of works" is not genuine faith, but a dead faith. Our faith is made alive in Christ (by grace we have been saved through faith, not by works - Ephesians 2:5-9). Saying that works cause dead faith to come alive is like saying that fruit causes a dead tree to come alive. It takes a living faith to produce works, just as it takes a living tree to produce fruit. The source of life in faith produces works and not the other way around. Life flows through the root (faith) and produces the works (fruit). What did Jesus say we needed to do to be saved?
BELIEVE - (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). Not to be confused with things Jesus said to do AFTER we have been saved (Matthew 5:16; 44-46; 6:19-21; 33; 14:15; 28:19-20 etc..).
and then the response is not " Amen yes thats a clear understanding we all should accept" and then some of the things you are saying would have good value to explain How a person goes from unable, to able by Faith to do the things the Bible says we have to do. but i may be off here, but it seems like you are always using that to explain why no one needs to do anything. but really you are saying " real faith will always have works, thats what actually shows it to be real"
Obedience is not forced or legalistic for genuine believers. It's not about get saved then do nothing, but it's also not about, now that we are saved, here is a check list of things that we must do (or else!) to help Jesus keep us saved.
so i often lose track not of what you are saying, and like i said its often really good scripture, and really good points, i think if you would see that if your saying "Good works are the evidence of genuine faith" thats a Good clear Point that many places in scripture supports. but that isnt a truth to be applied to why we dont need to do anyhting, or that the warnings dont apply. you are actually sayng works are necassary, your just saying " those works are accomplished By Faith" wich i think everyone agrees with who studies the Bible much.
Good works are the evidence of genuine faith and there are certainly warnings in the Bible.
then you have to see that you are also saying in different words " faith without works is dead, what doth it profet?"
Again,
"faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. We must not put the cart before the horse.
then im sure the same thing you would say " Love is the reason we act in Love toward others" and that also is biblically sound. but it doesnt make the position "nothing needs to be done" if a person Has Gods Love in them they will be blessed to do as amany good things for others as they are able to do is the truth, it will actually improve the quality of many peoples Lives and fill us with that Joy of thr Lord so many of us hear of and cant quite feel .....that comes when we get our boots on the ground and apply faith into action putting those talents to work for Jesus who Gave His blood to Give us Life. to spread the goodness He gave us and His name along with the goodness we do and are for others.
Paul speaks of the importance of love in 1 Corinthians chapter 13. We also see that faith works through love (Galatians 5:6). The love of God has been poured out in the hearts of believers through the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). I'm not saying nothing needs to be done now that we are Christians. Just sit back and do nothing. Not at all! There are plenty of things we can be doing for the Lord, yet there is no amount of good works that we could accomplish and add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us. Big difference.
i sincerely think if you would focus your understandings more toward " why we do the things we do" and not make it the argument for why we need to do nothing. it would really help alot of people. anyways i hope you and dc and some others understand man, discussion in a forum, is discussion, and really we should not let it get personal because were all Christians. i hope u guys take it the same way, discussion can be frustrating and i Know at least i , run short with patience bacause of the 2 years of the same circles. but its never personal for me, i feel like everyone should speak freely without worrying so much about offending others, and everyone should try to not take personal offense when others have debate and opposing ideas.
When people are very passionate about what they believe, it's inevitable that sooner or later someone will become frustrated or angry, especially when there is a disagreement on something as critical as how we are saved. Now there is nothing we can do to help Jesus save us (His finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers/no supplements needed - Romans 3:24-26) yet we are exhorted to present our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is our
reasonable service (Romans 12:1). In 1 Thessalonians 5:14-18, we are exhorted to warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks; for
this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. *Not to be confused with God's will for us to
become saved (John 6:40). I hear too many people implying that we are saved based on our performance or at least that's the way it comes across.
God bless....anyways. just tryin to let u personally know mmd, i actually appreciate alot of the things you say, i just think you misapply them to a faulty idea at some main points . you definately along with dc are both articulate and pretty well thought out people and probably Good Guys and all. i joke around alot trying to lighten the mood sometimes and then later i read and it doesnt come out that way in text so i apologize if i seemed to be laughing at you, or anything. those lols are usually because what ive written seems comical in my hed. never meant at you or anyone else.
I appreciate your up front honesty and God bless you! Also don't forget.
I'm not a bad guy. I'm just misunderstood. 
