Healing in the Atonement?

[stonesoffire]

Hi Joanie

fairly well this evening, thank you. We had a beautiful day today here in Florida. Was eyeing the yard that's in need of much work. It's been too long unkempt. Mowed, but the flowers around my trees, and my Little Rock garden in the backyard has not been touched for years now. Plus I want a tan. Lol Am going to take time to enjoy the spring and summer.

I hope all is well with you and yours Joanie. Did you get to visit your sister? The Lord is doing great things for you!

Will be back in the am. Just a quick check on the thread..

 

[Nehemiah6]

16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: “He Himself took our infirmities And bore our sicknesses.

1. If we take this Scripture as shown, this aspect of Isaiah's prophecy was fulfilled at that time. That is what it says. So can we expect this prophecy to be fulfilled now when it has already been fulfilled? Not likely.

2. The wording in Isaiah 53:4 is actually quite different: Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows... The emphasis is on griefs and sorrows, which Matthew interpreted as infirmities and sicknesses, and then said that that aspect was FULFILLED. But the focus in Isaiah is in verse 3: ...a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief...

3. The healing of the sin-sick soul is in the Atonement: ...thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin... But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed... and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

But to claim that Christians are guaranteed physical healing through the sacrifice of Christ is just nonsense.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Has God ever said no EG? Sounds a bit strange when the scriptures say yes, and amen. Do you need me to post it?

Really sis. Your gonna go down this road? God said no to Paul (my grace is sufficient) He has said no many times. But one is enough to show god does not always say yes.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Deny healing in the atonement stunned. You know, the topic of the thread.

Healing is not asssured until we are ressurected ted and given new bodies. Why do you keep insisting God promises to heal everyone? Atonement was made for SIN. Not for physical health

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Going off on different tangents and rabbit trails from the original topic on a thread is a common occurrence around here.
Sometimes we just have to re post many times to get back the topic. How are you this evening Stonesoffire? Good to see you.

Who has gone of on tangents and rabbit trails?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi Joanie

fairly well this evening, thank you. We had a beautiful day today here in Florida. Was eyeing the yard that's in need of much work. It's been too long unkempt. Mowed, but the flowers around my trees, and my Little Rock garden in the backyard has not been touched for years now. Plus I want a tan. Lol Am going to take time to enjoy the spring and summer.

I hope all is well with you and yours Joanie. Did you get to visit your sister? The Lord is doing great things for you!

Will be back in the am. Just a quick check on the thread..

Glad you had a great day! We had a lot of rain/ my back yard is fa pond. My driveway is a pond..lol. But God is great, even when things are not sunny and pleasant..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen! Wanted to re post it. Thank you Lancelot.

Since no one responded to them, I will repost also. And give people one more chance to respond.

I posted the following just today with regards to Isaiah 53 and physical healing. why is Ben trying to say that we ignore the so called 'parallel' of that chapter in this discussion?

anyone who has been a member here for 6 or even 3 months of time knows full well...FULL WELL...that Angela for example, has been faithful in posting the response that Ben here says is ignored

about time some people cut out their exaggeratin...he is not the only one doing it...so quick to say be nice...but this has never been about nice

it has been about the sacred cow of universal healing


The word “healed” as translated from both Hebrew and Greek, can mean either spiritual or physical healing. However, the contexts of Isaiah 53 and 1 Peter 2 make it clear that they are referring to spiritual healing, not physical. “He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed” (1 Peter 2:24). The verse is referring to sin and righteousness, not sickness and disease. Therefore, being “healed” in both these verses is speaking of being forgiven and saved, not being physically healed.

we need to understand the Bible in context

while there certainly are people who are healed there are also, most certainly those who are not healed and in fact the latter would be the majority

the fact that anyone prays at all for healing, is PROOF that people believe God can and does heal

as Jesus said faith even as small as a mustard seed was sufficient, it is nonsensical to say someone does not have enough faith to be healed

as Jesus had to die for our sins to be forgiven, yet He healed many before his death and resurrection, it is not truthful to say He healing is in the atonement when it is OBVIOUS God healed before Jesus even came to the earth

the confusion lies in inserting one's teachings or personal beliefs INTO a passage that does not fit the ideas being entertained and then saying 'here is proof'

1. God heals today

2. God does not heal everybody...in fact the majority are not healed

3. Faith is indicated in ANY prayer...God hears prayer. The Bible says so

4. God does NOT need truckloads of faith to heal someone. God does not derive extra power to heal from the faith of a human being

5. God is merciful and does not taunt people nor offer promises and then not keep them. The entire fault lies at the feet of those who say that God's will is for everyone to be healed and Isaiah 53 proves it.

How could you miss this one Ben? it's the longest post in this very thread? first page and 4th post in

Re: Healing in the Atonement?

Well, good effort at least at putting 3 verses together. That is progress. Plus I appreciate the Hebrew. I don't have exegetical commentaries for Isaiah, so having the definitions, even if they refer back to the KJV, which is only a translation, instead of saying how many occurrences there are in the Hebrew Bible is better than nothing. (Because the KJV is not always translated properly!)

I found this in verse 4 interesting, considering I was looking at the NET translation, which was not the usual translation. This word stuck out for me:

nâśâ' nâsâh
naw-saw', naw-saw'
A primitive root; to lift, in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively, absolutely and relatively: - accept, advance, arise, (able to, [armour], suffer to) bear (-er, up), bring (forth), burn, carry (away), cast, contain, desire, ease, exact, exalt (self), extol, fetch, forgive, furnish, further, give, go on, help, high, hold up, honourable (+ man), lade, lay, lift (self) up, lofty, marry, magnify, X needs, obtain, pardon, raise (up), receive, regard, respect, set (up), spare, stir up, + swear, take (away, up), X utterly, wear, yield.

Net uses "lift" rather than "he bore," so now I know why. Because it is better. So thanks for that! I find it interesting that different versions really do differ in their approach to translating these words. Unfortunately, you have not posted which words in the OP go with which verses in the second reply. So here is NET. Please note, I am going to extend these verses from 1-6, simply because I want to point out what gets lost in word studies, and not having context.


1. Who would have believed what we just heard?
When was the Lord’s power revealed through him?
2 2. He sprouted up like a twig before God,
like a root out of parched soil;
he had no stately form or majesty that might catch our attention,
no special appearance that we should want to follow him.
3 3. He was despised and rejected by people,
one who experienced pain and was acquainted with illness;
people hid their faces from him;
he was despised, and we considered him insignificant.
4 4. But he lifted up our illnesses,
he carried our pain;
even though we thought he was being punished,
attacked by God, and afflicted for something he had done.
5 5. He was wounded because of our rebellious deeds,
crushed because of our sins;
he endured punishment that made us well;
because of his wounds we have been healed.
6 6. All of us had wandered off like sheep;
each of us had strayed off on his own path,
but the Lord caused the sin of all of us to attack him. Isa. 53:1-6

Here is NASB which looks a bit different in places.

"Who has believed our message?And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him." Isa. 53:1-6


So, quite a difference, but still, the point of the passage is the same. My challenge is to read the passage, from beginning to end, and then tell me what it is about. Is it about us? Is it about what we get? Is it about what we can claim?

Or is this passage about Jesus? Here is my answer. The Jews will not let Isaiah 53 be read in their synagogues to this day. Why do you think that might be? Is it because we get healing? Or is because it describes a perfect picture of the Suffering Messiah, or Suffering Servant?

Verses 1-3, are about the rejection of the Servant. "He was despised and forsaken of men." "He was despised we did not esteem him." Jesus does not have "stately form or majesty." The King has no majesty! I guess not, on the cross, first having a crown of thorns on his head, then being beaten, then dragged to Golgatha and finally crucified.

This is the SUFFERING Messiah. Jesus takes on the pain and suffering of the world!

Then verses 4-6 we see all those words about sin/transgressions, iniquity, rebellious deeds, sins, "our punishment" which he suffered in our place. We had all wandered off like stupid sheep, gone astray.

And if there is any doubt about why he did this - why was he afflicted by God, he suffered for OUR iniquities, OUR sin, and in OUR place! So, this is the part where we come in. Did Jesus suffer so we could be healed? Well, the verse says,

He lifted up our illnesses and carried our pain OR Our griefs he himself bore, and our sorrows he carried.

So, quite a difference. The Hebrew, I think, does use the word "sickness." But, what kind of sickness? Sickness in our bodies, or sickness in our souls? Because the entire book of Isaiah, as I have posted before, is about Isaiah being told to go to the nation of Israel, who were diseased with sin! Here is what God says to Isaiah when he first calls him.

"4. The sinful nation is as good as dead,
the people weighed down by evil deeds.
They are offspring who do wrong,
children who do wicked things.
They have abandoned the Lord,
and rejected the Holy One of Israel.
They are alienated from him.
5 5. Why do you insist on being battered?
Why do you continue to rebel?
Your head has a massive wound,
your whole body is weak.
6 6. From the soles of your feet to your head,
there is no spot that is unharmed.
There are only bruises, cuts,
and open wounds.
They have not been cleansed or bandaged,
nor have they been treated with olive oil.
7 7. Your land is devastated,
your cities burned with fire.
Right before your eyes your crops
are being destroyed by foreign invaders.
They leave behind devastation and destruction." Isaiah 1:4-7

This is totally a message to to Isaiah to proclaim to Israel who have been wounded and are weak, because they are wicked, weighed down by evil deeds and a sinful nation. That is the CONTEXT of Isaiah.

Isaiah starts with the wounded, sin-sick metaphor right here in Chapter 1, which I have italicized above, and he keeps it up throughout the book. Israel is going down, if they do not repent. In fact, in Isaiah 6, even Isaiah realizes what a wicked sinner he is.

"I said, “Too bad for me! I am destroyed, for my lips are contaminated by sin, and I live among people whose lips are contaminated by sin. My eyes have seen the king, the Lord who commands armies. 6 But then one of the seraphs flew toward me. In his hand was a hot coal he had taken from the altar with tongs. 7 He touched my mouth with it and said, “Look, this coal has touched your lips. Your evil is removed; your sin is forgiven.” Isaiah 6:5-7

Even Isaiah himself had sin he needed to be burned right out of him.

So, now we get to why some verses say "by his stripes we are healed." It is because we are healed, in the atonement, of sin sickness. In fact, the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Bible, which Jesus and the disciples actually quoted more than the Hebrew Bible, and the Septuagint clearly recognizes Isa. 53:4 as referring to diseased Israel, and translates it as "He himself bore our sins."

Why did the Greek Jews translate it this way? Because they knew that not only did Israel suffer from sin sickness, God took them captive, burned down Solomon's temple, by way of the Babylonians, and these Jews did NOT want Israel to apostasies again.

The first thing in hermeneutics is to look at what some call "the plain meaning of the text." Some might say that means you can take each word literally, and that is the truth. In fact, we need to look at the original meaning, that the AUTHOR plainly intended, and that his AUDIENCE plainly understood. The Bible is a book for all seasons, but it first spoke to the Jews of that century, not to us, in the 21st century, with charlatans teaching things that were never meant to be to either Isaiah, to his audience, and certainly not to God.

This interpretation which the Word Faith and this OP holds is NOT about us claiming healing in the 21st century. It was about a prophecy that the Messiah would come and heal the diseased, sin sick nation of Israel, and when they rejected him, that the Gentiles would be healed of their sin-sickness. This interpretation, in which naming and claiming based on out of context verses (and by out of context, please remember the metaphor that Isaiah himself started with in chapter 1 of this book) which refer to sickness, which in fact is SIN SICKNESS. The Jews knew this in the 3rd century BC when the put the Hebrew into Greek.

Further, if you want to look down to Jesus time, after Christ died on the cross, why were the epistles not written telling people to name and claim their healing? Because, they knew the atonement did NOT contain healing. (Yes, healing happened, but not BECAUSE it was in the atonement). Even if you want to suddenly juxtapose all those verses about Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, our iniquities, with a few weak lines about healing, it simply does not bear the weight of creating an entire doctrine, in fact and entire religious movement, based on healing (and claiming wealth, of course!)

The truth is, Isaiah is about Jesus coming to redeem his people from their sins. That is the meaning of the atonement. No Jew, in Isaiah's day, in Jesus day, or even today would pull healing out of those verses. And no Christian should either.

Pray for healing, and I hope God grants it. But, it is simply NOT part of the atonement.​

Is 53 4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
Context. What is healed?

He was wounded because of my sin (not my sickness)
He was bruised for my sin (not my sickness)
He was chastened in my place (took the penalty I owe, which was death (not my sickness)
And because he did the above, I am healed (no longer under the penalty of death because of my sin and again, Not physical illness)ContinuingHe was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

Here we have the link to the law. The lamb, which was led to slaughter on the day of atonement, to be slaughtered for the sin of the people. (No sickness was ever healed as a result of the atoning sacrifice given by the high priest. Sin was forgiven, that was the meaning and aim of ther sacrifice. He, as the lamb, was slaughtered for the sins of the people. So they could have their sins atoned for

Continuing

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul,[b] and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For he shall bear their iniquities!
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

And here we have proof behind a shadow of the doubt, that no physical healing was in context ANYPLACE in this chapter.

1. His bruising and his stripes and chastening were an offering for SIN (not sickness)
2. His bruising and stripes and chastened was for JUSTIFYING the last. (Not making them well)
3. His bruising, and his stripes and his chastening was for INTERCESSION for the transgressors (us) (Again, Not for sickness or physical healing.

And some people want us to say this is also for physical healing also? Talk about twisting the word of God. I am sorry, there comes a time when people have to stop declaiming the word says something that it does not even remotely comes to say.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, since we are reposting stuff. Did not want to make one post to long. And we were told no one answered the question about Isaiah 53..

perhaps some do not really know what the word atonement means

here is a simple dictionary definition of the word. words mean something. use them properly

a·tone·ment
əˈtōnmənt/
noun

• reparation for a wrong or injury.
  "she wanted to make atonement for her husband's behavior"
• • CHRISTIAN THEOLOGY
    the reconciliation of God and humankind through Jesus Christ.
    noun: the Atonement

what does Paul say?


15:3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received – that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the scriptures

Paul indicates a reference to the Old Testament and confirms Jesus died for our sins

Exodus 30 : And Aaron shall make atonement upon its horns once a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonement; once a year he shall make atonement upon it throughout your generations. It is most holy to the Lord.”

From a concise hebrew and Aramaic lexicon of the OT

: qal: pf. וְכָפַרְתָּ֫: w. kōfer, spread over = cover w. pitch Gn 6:14. †
piel: pf. כִּפֶּר, כִּפַּרְתֶּם, כִּפַּרְתָּהּ; impf. יְכַפֵּר, אֲכַפֵּר, אֲכַפְּרָה, יְכַפְּרֶנָּה, תְּכַפְּרֵם; impv. כַּפֵּר; inf. כַּפֵּר, כַּפְּרִי, כַּפְּרָהּ, כַּפֶּרְךָ:—1. older idiom: a) kipper pānāyw be cover s.one’s face (w. a gift) = appease Gn 32:21; b) kipper be cover w. s.thg = make amends 2 S 21:3; c) w. acc. cover up (trouble) = ward off Is 47:11; d) kipper be‘ad ḥaṭṭāʾt provide reconciliation, atonement Ex 32:30; e) w. ʿal effect reconcil., atonement for s.one Ez 45:15; f) w. acc. (subj. priest) expiate, purge (altar, temple) Ez 43:20; g) w. le (subj. God) cover for the benefit of, not charge s.one, reckon to s.one Dt 21:8; h) (subj. God) cover up (sin), so that no punishment is necessary Je 18:23;—2. idiom in P: a) fully: kipper ʿālāyw hakkōhēn the priest provides reconcil., atonement for s.one be … lifnê yhwh ʿal … by [an offering] before Y. because of a sin Lv 19:22; b) abbreviated: kipper ʿal provide reconcil., atonement for s.one Lv 4:20, ʿālāyw for onesf. Lv 1:4, for s.thg Lv 14:53; c) ʿal-hammizbēaḥ at the altar Ex 29:36f; d) abs. provide reconcil., atonement Lv 6:23; e) kipper benefeš (blood) makes atonement through soul = life Lv 17:11;—3. later idiom: a) subj. man: cover up = ward off (wrath) Pr 16:14; obj. ʿāwōn atone by punishment Dn 9:24; b) God covers up sin = forgives: w. acc. of sin Ps 65:4, w. ʿal 79:9, w. be‘ad 2 C 30:18.

to 'atone' means to make amends...or to set something right that was wrong

belief in Jesus = eternal life

Jesus was the only acceptable atonement that satisfied the requirement of God for the sin of mankind

Jesus healed BEFORE the atonement.

Jesus did NOT have to die to heal

the atonement was made so we would be acceptable to God, in Christ

there is no requirement to be wealthy, physically 100% sound or to have faith at different levels or faith that makes God go 'wowzers' I'm gonna heal that person!

there is nothing wrong with asking or praying for healing, or praying for financial stability or even asking for more faith!

I hope that is as plain as day to some as it appears to me

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And of course we can not forget this rebuttals to someone who said Angela agreed that the passage referred to physical healing.

Sorry I missed this. I've been busy with life, again! It sure gets in the way of posting in forums, sometimes!

What I said, is that what is found in Isaiah 53, and all through Isaiah, is that a Messiah would come, who would heal the people of their sin sickness. And that is the atonement. Jesus death on the cross paid for our sins. It's called redemption, or propitiation, or other words.

Atonement = payment for sins (in our place) One does not ATONE for sickness. One might take thank offerings for sickness to the temple in the OT, but it was not to ATONE for sickness, but to be thankful for being restored after an illness.

Isaiah also contains prophecies that would identify Jesus when he appeared on earth. He was a suffering servant, in Isa. 53:1-3. He was smitten, beaten, etc. It also prophecies he would be hung on a cross, and that Jesus would heal the people who lived at the same time as him. That is cross referenced in Matt 8:16-17, which clearly says that Jesus healed, So that, Isaiah would be fulfilled.

It no where, in any place says that because Jesus healed and fulfilled the prophecy in Isa. 53, that in the 21st century, that EVERYONE who had enough faith would be healed. And if you weren't healed, it was because you didn't have enough faith. It no where says, everyone would be healed, all the time.It says no where healing is contained in the atonement. I did NOT say healing was in the atonement, because it is NEVER in the text, New or Old Testament! (So Ben, if you somehow read me wrong, I have been clear in saying over and over - healing from physical sickness is NOT contained in the atonement! Nor does it say anywhere that healing is a part of the atonement elsewhere in the Bible. If healing was in the Bible, it would be repeated over and over in both testaments, and associated with temple rites. Leprosy does precede the discussion on cleansing of sins, but even that is NOT about healing, but rather investigations and purifications for infectious skin diseases! Even if you could somehow push the section on infectious skin diseases into the section on atonement, it is NOT found elsewhere, nor does it examine ALL disease, which is what Word Faith claims healing is about - ALL diseases!)
It also clearly says, in Isaiah 1 that Israel was sick in its whole head, from the sole of the foot to the head, with bruises and sores and raw wounds. This is a metaphor for the sin sickness of Israel. It is also part of the metaphor in Isa. 53:4-5 is the prophecy, that is fulfilled in Matt 8:17.

The big issue, as I review this in various translations and in Greek, is that it really difficult to get a read on either Isa. 53:4 or Matt. 8:17, because there is such variation in the various translations, because the words have more than one definition, and even the same translations use different words for the prophecies in the OT and the fulfillment in the NT.

For instance, the word ἀσθενείας can be translated as "illness or weakness." Bauer (BDAG) notes three uses of the word, which is a feminine noun.

1. state of debilitating illness, sickness, disease. Matt 8:17
2. incapacity for something or experience of limitation, weakness eg. 1 Cor. 15:43, Hebrews 5:2
3. lack of confidence of feeling of inadequacy, weakness. Of Pauls' self-effacement, timidity 1 Cor. 2:3

However, there is enough wiggle room, that if a translator wanted to downplay how Jesus healed, the word, could be used in the sense of "lack of confidence." This shows how easy it can be for previous theology to influence where the translation is going. Just a warning to anyone who digs for a translation they like, to prove or disprove a point.

So, comparing this fulfillment of prophecy, with the actual prophecy in Isa. 53:4, I find, that the exact words are not repeated even in the same versions. And not one of these versions match each other, let alone themselves.

"But he lifted up our illnesses,
he carried our pain;
even though we thought he was being punished,
attacked by God, and afflicted for something he had done." Isa. 53:4 NET

"When it was evening, many demon-possessed people were brought to him. He drove out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick. In this way what was spoken by Isaiah the prophet was fulfilled:
"He took our weaknesses and carried our diseases." Matt 8:16-17 NET



"Yet He Himself bore our sicknesses,and He carried our pains;
but we in turn regarded Him stricken,
struck down by God, and afflicted." Isa. 53:4 HCSB

"When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. He drove out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick,so that what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:He Himself took our weaknessesand carried our diseases." Matt 8:16-17 HCSB



"When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." Matt 8:16-17 KJV

"Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted." Isa. 53:4 KJV


"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted." Isa. 53:4 ESV

"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV


"Ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης προσήνεγκαν αὐτῷ δαιμονιζομένους πολλούς· καὶ ἐξέβαλεν τὰ πνεύματα λόγῳ, καὶ πάντας τοὺς κακῶς ἔχοντας ἐθεράπευσεν·17 ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:16-17 Greek.

Now, this is VERY important! None of the versions I looked at, does the NT fulfillment perfectly mirror the OT prophecy. And I am in a hurry, I have a major German presentation for Monday, and I do not have time to look closely at the Hebrew, but here is some information from the Septuagint. Here is a look at what the LXX says. (Maybe Marc could examine what the Hebrew says?)

"53:4 – This one bears our sins and suffers pain for us, and we accounted him to be in trouble and calamity and ill-treatment." Isa. 53:4 LXX in translation.

"ἀλλὰ τὸ εἶδος αὐτοῦ ἄτιμον ἐκλεῖπον παρὰ πάντας ἀνθρώπους ἄνθρωπος ἐν πληγῇ ὢν καὶ εἰδὼς φέρειν μαλακίαν ὅτι ἀπέστραπται τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ ἠτιμάσθη καὶ οὐκ ἐλογίσθη" Isa. 53:3 (4 in our Bibles!)

https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/21683/what-does-the-greek-word-μαλακιαν-mean-in-isaiah-533-lxx


The key word "μαλακίαν" or malakian a feminine noun, which in Greek means:
gloss - softness, weakness, weakliness, ailment
1. condition of bodily weakness, debility, weakness, sickness (Matt 4:23, 9:3; 10:1)
2. condition of inner weakness, faint hearted, dependency, lack of energy which is not found in the NT.

Do we translate it as "sickness" or as "inner weakness?"

And, please note the same words do not even appear in Greek in the prophecy in Isa. 53:4 and Matt 8:16-17, although in looking at a cross section of translations, they are universal in their translation of Kakos as "sickness." See below. In fact, the word Kakos, does NOT readily translate as "sickness" although most versions translate it that way, and certainly Jesus did heal their diseases, νόσους in the prophecy. (Physical malady, disease, illness!)

Well, I do believe the both Isaiah and his audience, and later the translation committee for the LXX knew what they were talking about. But, do we? It is hard, 2600 some years later to reach back in the past, and decide exactly what Isaiah was talking about. And, this whole discussion reflects the fact, that in our society, we constantly want to pin down words with mathematical precision, which did not exist in those days. No computers, just valiant efforts to retain the original words, by scribes, which wasn't always successful. So, the next time some of you go searching for a translation that reflects YOUR personal theology, remember the ancient people would not even begin to understand anything to do with complete purity, nor that there wasn't a LOT of leeway on the meanings of word.

My take home?

Jesus died on the cross for our sins. That is clearly the atonement, and what the book of Isaiah prophecies. And the whole Bible. Adam and Eve were not sick, when God told them that the woman's offspring would attack the serpent.(Ge. 3:15) Isaiah is a book written both to warn the Israelites an Judaeans that they needed to repent and return to the Lord. In fact, that is pretty much the message of ALL the prophets. That the Israelites were sinful, idolatrous people, who needed to repent,and remember that the Messiah was coming. NEVER is this call to repentance, and prophecies about the Messiah about diseases, other than during Jesus ministry. It is always a bad doctrine to use a few part verses, where the words cannot be pinned down with precision, and make huge doctrine, changing the entire point of the atonement, based on wrong readings of a few short verses. Also a mistake to make a promise about what Jesus would do, into a claim for complete healing for every Christian,which is no where found in Isa. 53 or any other text. Read the whole Bible, stop reading a few bible snippets in some one else's writings, or pulling verses out of context to make false doctrine.

Then, it is a book on who that coming Lord is! Jesus is the Suffering servant, who suffered for our sins, and died on the cross for our salvation. Isa. 53:4 is a clear prophecy of Jesus earthly ministry. It says that Jesus will heal their diseases, in Order to FULFILL what was spoke by the prophet Isaiah - that being, he would heal the illnesses and diseases of the people of the first century. Even to ALL their Kakos! πάντας τοὺς κακῶς Now, kakos is another word with many definitions.

1 Pertaining to sing socially or morally reprehensible,bad, evil.
a. of human characteristics, actions, emotions,plans - bad
2. Pertaining to being harmful or injurious - evil, injurious, dangerous, pernicious
3. Certain passages far between 1 & 2, harm caused by evil.

Jesus did not die on the cross for our healing! There simply is NO way that this prophecy means, every believer is healed for all time, if they just have enough faith.

Yes, during his earthly ministry Jesus fulfilled this prophecy, WHILE HE WAS ALIVE! So, Jesus does heal.And I believe he does heal today, I have never said differently. But, healing on demand, naming and claiming it, or healing as part of the atonement is simply not found in these passages, nor in 1 Peter 2:24, which I don't have time to get into today, I simply must go and do some homework.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I've learned that it is of the utmost importance that we walk by faith and not by sight. That we be encouraged in the faith and be co laborers with Christ in the work here on earth. That we keep before us the truth that God heals in Christ because Jesus paid for it and called us to also be ministers of His work. We are to join in the ministry of reconciliation. Below are testimonies of healing and that God is the God of yes and Amen because of Jesus.


At one of my Gospel Truth Seminars, I ministered to a man who had detached retinas. I was standing right in front of him, and he said I was just a blur. With the service about to start, I only had a moment to minister, so I told him to come forward at the end, and one of our prayer ministers would continue the process. He did and, after further ministry, gave a great testimony. Not only could he see me clearly, but he could see the faces of the people at the back of the auditorium. Thank You, Jesus! That’s a miracle!


In the same service, a woman came forward whose eyes were clouded with cataracts. She could barely see, but after the prayer minister prayed for her, the white glaze over her eyes was gone, and she said her eyesight was great. Another man came off the oxygen tank he had been attached to for months. Deaf ears were opened; cancers were cured; and backs were healed. Hallelujah!


The most exciting thing to me about these miracles is that I’m NOT the one who prayed for most of these people.
Not long ago, I was doing all of the ministry. Don’t misunderstand; I enjoy ministering God’s healing to people. But, as the crowds grew, it became difficult to pray for everyone. I often prayed with people till after midnight, and yet there were many more that couldn’t stay and left without their healing. Now that we have prayer ministers, hundreds of people can be ministered to each night. Many more miracles are taking place, and it’s especially satisfying to see them experience the same and even better results than I do.


I think this sends a much needed signal to all who will listen; television ministers are not the only ones who can operate in this miraculous power of God! Praise God for the true men and women of God on television, but Jesus said that believers will lay hands on the sick, and the sick will recover (Mark 16:18). The job of the minister is to train the body of Christ so that they can do the work of the ministry (Eph. 4:11-12). The day of the one-man show in the body of Christ needs to come to an end, and we’re literally seeing that take place in our meetings.


Some of the local prayer ministers we train have never seen a miracle happen through them before. I remember one man who helped us at a seminar. He received instruction and training, and on the very first night saw a person’s blind eyes open when he prayed. He told us the next day that he was so excited, he didn’t sleep all night. Not only did the blind person get healed, but I can guarantee you, that young man will never be the same. That is awesome!


Would you like to see the blind receive their sight or the lame walk when you pray? Do you desperately need healing yourself? Here’s the good news—whether you’re praying for another’s healing or receiving your own, it’s available to every true follower of Christ! Jesus gave every disciple who believes the power and authority to do the same works that He did. What a statement! But it is absolutely true. John 14:12 says,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


All believers will do the same works that Jesus did; it’s not limited to ministers. There’s just a shortage of believing believers.
How do you get to the place where you can see the miraculous happen in and through you? It starts with the renewing of your mind. Faith is based on knowledge, and everything we need to know to be a victorious Christian is explained in God’s Word.
That’s what the Apostle Peter said in 2 Peter 1:3-4:

“According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”


Amen. I'm thankful for the ministers like Andrew Wommach and other., preachers and teachers God sends the body of Christ. That God uses the internet and tv and radio to get the word out. How beautiful .... Romans 10:15

For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous, acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [his] salvation.
[SUP]
11 [/SUP]The Scripture says, No man who believes in Him [who adheres to, relies on, and trusts in Him] will [ever] be put to shame or be disappointed.
[SUP]
12 [/SUP][No one] for there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. The same Lord is Lord over all [of us] and He generously bestows His riches upon all who call upon Him [in faith].
[SUP]
13 [/SUP]For everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord [invoking Him as Lord] will be saved.
[SUP]
14 [/SUP]But how are people to call upon Him Whom they have not believed [in Whom they have no faith, on Whom they have no reliance]? And how are they to believe in Him [adhere to, trust in, and rely upon Him] of Whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?
[SUP]
15 [/SUP]And how can men [be expected to] preach unless they are sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings! [How welcome is the coming of those who preach the good news of His good things!]
[SUP]
16 [/SUP]But they have not all heeded the Gospel; for Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed (had faith in) what he has heard from us?
[SUP]
17 [/SUP]So faith comes by hearing [what is told], and what is heard comes by the preaching [of the message that came from the lips] of Christ (the Messiah Himself).

When you put words in italics, a passage of words, it typically means they aren't your words...you commonly give credit for who wrote it or else it looks like you are claiming to have written the words yourself.

Since you don't do that anywhere, I'm left thinking that you wrote the whole post and just used italics in a few places to break up the font...?

Once again, you don't help the people who haven't been healed and who aren't currently in the perfect health that you are.

The reason you don't address that, by my understanding from listening to a few threads you've participated in, is that you think the blame for not not being healed of every sickness is a lack of trust on the part of the sick one, whether they are 3 months old or 70 years old.

We have no problem with JGIGS treatment of the matter. She addresses it all, even the difficult parts, without blaming sick people for not trusting God enough. And she addresses what she would have purposed to do even IF her child had not been healed, showing that she understands a dead child doesn't always mean no trust. She makes no blanket statements of accusation. She preaches trust. You preach something else. What you preach leads to self condemnation and heartache and shipwrecked trust. Someone could pray and not receive healing based on what she teaches and yet still have comfort in their grief by her words whereas they could not by yours, because you condemn them in their grief.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

For the same reason why Jesus didn't have a 100% success rate.

I need the place in the gospel where you come by this conclusion that Jesus didn't have a 100% success rate at healing.

 

[MarcR]

.
Isa 53:3 He is despised H959  and rejected H2310  of men; H376  a man H376  of sorrows, H4341 
H4341

מַכְאֹבָה מַכְאוֹב מַכְאֹב​

mak'ôb mak'ôb mak'ôbâh
mak-obe', mak-obe', mak-o-baw'
From H3510; anguish or (figuratively) affliction: - grief, pain, sorrow.
Total KJV occurrences: 16


and acquainted H3045  with grief: H2483 
H2483

חֳלִי​

chŏlı̂y
khol-ee'
From H2470; malady, anxiety, calamity: - disease, grief, (is) sick (-ness).
Total KJV occurrences: 24

and we hid H4564  as it were our faces H6440  from H4480  him; he was despised, H959  and we esteemed H2803  him not. H3808 




Isa 53:4 Surely H403  he H1931  hath borne H5375 
H5375

נָסָה נָשָׂא​

nâśâ' nâsâh
naw-saw', naw-saw'
A primitive root; to lift, in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively, absolutely and relatively: - accept, advance, arise, (able to, [armour], suffer to) bear (-er, up), bring (forth), burn, carry (away), cast, contain, desire, ease, exact, exalt (self), extol, fetch, forgive, furnish, further, give, go on, help, high, hold up, honourable (+ man), lade, lay, lift (self) up, lofty, marry, magnify, X needs, obtain, pardon, raise (up), receive, regard, respect, set (up), spare, stir up, + swear, take (away, up), X utterly, wear, yield.
Total KJV occurrences: 653

our griefs, H2483 
H2483

חֳלִי​

chŏlı̂y
khol-ee'
From H2470; malady, anxiety, calamity: - disease, grief, (is) sick (-ness).
Total KJV occurrences: 24
and carried H5445 
H5445

סָבַל​

sâbal
saw-bal'
A primitive root; to carry (literally or figuratively), or (reflexively) be burdensome; specifically to be gravid: - bear, be a burden, carry, strong to labour.
Total KJV occurrences:9

our sorrows: H4341 
H4341

מַכְאֹבָה מַכְאוֹב מַכְאֹב​

mak'ôb mak'ôb mak'ôbâh
mak-obe', mak-obe', mak-o-baw'
From H3510; anguish or (figuratively) affliction: - grief, pain, sorrow.
Total KJV occurrences: 16


yet we H587  did esteem H2803  him stricken, H5060  smitten H5221  of God, H430  and afflicted. H6031 
Isa 53:5 But he H1931  waswounded H2490  for our transgressions, H4480 H6588  he was bruised H1792 
H1794

דָּכָה​

dâkâh
daw-kaw'
A primitive root (compare H1790, H1792); to collapse (physically or mentally): - break (sore), contrite, crouch.
Total KJV occurrences: 5
for our iniquities: H4480 H5771  the chastisement H4148  of our peace H7965 
H7965

שָׁלֹם שָׁלוֹם​

shâlôm shâlôm
shaw-lome', shaw-lome'
From H7999; safe, that is, (figuratively) well, happy, friendly; also (abstractly) welfare, that is, health, prosperity, peace: - X do, familiar, X fare, favour, + friend, X greet, (good) health, (X perfect, such as be at) peace (-able, -ably), prosper (-ity, -ous), rest, safe (-ly), salute, welfare, (X all is, be) well, X wholly.
Total KJV occurrences: 236
was upon H5921  him; and with his stripes H2250 
H2250

חֲבֻרָה חַבֻּרָה חַבּוּרָה​

chabbûrâh chabbûrâh chăbûrâh
(1,2) khab-boo-raw', (3) khab-oo-raw'
From H2266; properly bound (with stripes), that is, a weal (or black and blue mark itself): - blueness, bruise, hurt, stripe, wound.
Total KJV occurrences: 7
we are healed. H7495
H7495

רָפָה רָפָא​

râphâ' râphâh
raw-faw', raw-faw'
A primitive root; properly to mend (by stitching), that is, (figuratively) to cure: - cure, (cause to) heal, physician, repair, X thoroughly, make whole. See H7503.
Total KJV occurrences: 68

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

God’s address to the faithful of Judah, begun at Is 52:1 and continuing throughout chapter 52, resumes in chapter 54 and continues through chapter 55. However, I believe that since this chapter predicts the rejection of the Messiah, it is likely addressed to the people of Judah, in general.
Understanding that the arm of the LORD is a title of Jesus (Yeshua), we see that this verse predicts rejection of Jesus’ (Yeshua’s) message by the people to whom He was sent.

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

he Jesus (Yeshua)
before him before the LORD (YHVH) from verse 1.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of anguish, and acquainted with calamity: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

anguish (מַכְאֹב֖וֺת) means anguish. calamity (חֹלִי) means calamity.

This verse emphasizes the prediction of rejection from verse 1.


4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.4Surely he hath borne our calamities, and carried our anguish: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

calamities, anguish See note at .
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: Jesus (Yeshua) is to be punished for our sins and receive our anguish (extreme pain) and our calamities (destruction in hell).
yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
we Isaiah, identifying himself and his nation with the majority of first century Jewish people might well include us before we were saved.
esteem in 17th Century English meant considered, as with our word ‘estimate’.
Before people understand the truth, they tend to believe that Jesus (Yeshua) got what was coming to Him.
 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our reconciliation was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

our reconciliation ( שָׁלוֺמֵ֙נוּ֙) In English, the word ‘peace’ has no plural. In Hebrew, the plural of ( שָׁל֑וֺם) peace is (שָׁלֹמִם) reconciliation. Our peace, which does not appear in the Old Testament, would be written ( שָׁלֹמְנוּ) but the plural ( שָׁלֹמִינוּ) doesn’t work in Hebrew orthography; and it becomes ( שָׁלוֺמֵ֙נוּ֙ ). [מִ֙ים] assimilates to מֵ֙ which looks singular but is in fact plural: our reconciliation.

אֱלֹהִים, God, assimilates to אֱלֹהֵ֗ינוּ, our God, very similarly except that the yod is retained as part of the root] I believe that this occurs when a plural form is treated as a singular noun.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities:
This supports my changes in the previous verse.
the chastisement of our reconciliation was upon him Accepting His payment for our sins as establishing His Lordship (His purchase of us for Himself) reconciles us with God; and repairs the damage caused by Adam and Eve’s sin.


6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way


7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

he openeth not his mouth He makes no defense to escape punishment.


8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
8 [By death,] He was taken from oppression and by judgment: he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken, and who shall declare his generation?.

Changes proposed as an alternate reading (not as a correction).


9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death
Because He was crucified with two thieves, by law, He should have been denied proper burial; but Joseph of Arimathaea interceded, with Pilate, and provided his own tomb for Jesus’ (Yeshua’s) burial
 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin When you accept His death as an offering for your sin;
he shall see his seed You become a child of God, by adoption, hence His offspring.
he shall prolong his days He will be resurrected, and live forever.
and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He will accomplish all He sets out to do.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

He shall see of the travail of his soul He shall see His life’s work.
by his knowledge by knowing Him

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; I will exalt and glorify Him

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Glad you had a great day! We had a lot of rain/ my back yard is fa pond. My driveway is a pond..lol. But God is great, even when things are not sunny and pleasant..

Hey! Practice walking on the water! And send us the video!

 

[joaniemarie]

Many rabbit trails about topics posted and about the people who post them. This post applies here as well as the other thread it's on.

I've noticed people use labels quite often just as a matter of course. I want to be more careful I do not use them. It's also clear that labeling seems to give people the idea that it allows them a right to dismiss and even discredit people.

The world does this all the time. A person need only disagree with the status quo of the main stream media here in America and it's open season on all who see politics differently. If we conservatives here in NY don't agree with the liberals for instance about President Trump being is a racist., we are also called racists.

It's that way in the world but should not be that way among Christians. We Christians here on these forums mostly agree on the majors., and in the minors we are surely to be given room to grow. At least that is the truth for some. I've learned Jesus is not hard and harsh. I've posted a statement of faith already. Only to have it dismissed and reasoned away that it's not worth the paper it's written on.. Good Grief Charlie Brown!

I just wanted to say it's AOK for Christians to see things differently despite those who say other wise. It's ok to like and prefer the preaching and teaching of one preacher and not another. It is ok to believe in healing in the atonement and post about it. It is also ok to not believe in healing in the atonement and to post about it.

It is OK to love and appreciate Billy Graham for instance even when others don't like him. It doesn't matter to me the negative things others may think and it doesn't change my opinions about Billy Graham because I appreciate him and his family and have for years.

And I say the same thing about the other preachers and teachers I share here who uplift me in the faith because there are many whom I love and enjoy so much. I'll keep on posting the same as always. Not to argue but because we Christians are able to read who we like and share their articles too. I chose to post the work of some pastors and preachers and teachers I do agree with and who have daily encouraged and strengthened me in Christ.

So I just wanted to give those who don't like my style of posting or my taste in Christian preachers a heads up. Feel free to ignore my threads and to start your own. We each have the freedom in Christ to read sermons or devotionals or topics by Christians we are fond of theologically and or personally.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

They would rather blame God than themselves.

Blame Him? No!
How could anyone blame or find fault with any tribulation or suffering that He has blessed them so greatly through? (Whether anyone else meant it for harm, He uses it to bless and grow and give us more of His mind!) He works it all to good somehow!

 

[stonesoffire]

I see the atonement and communion connected. Blood. Complete through life, eternal life through His blood sacrifice.

To not discern what should be taking place because of LIFE in the blood of Jesus, what are the results?

1 Corinthians 11:30 That's why so many of you are weak and sick and a considerable number are dying.

 

[stonesoffire]

Blame Him? No!
How could anyone blame or find fault with any tribulation or suffering that He has blessed them so greatly through? (Whether anyone else meant it for harm, He uses it to bless and grow and give us more of His mind!) He works it all to good somehow!

Really stunned, what a complete ridiculous statement. Go through the halls of the cancer wards and tell them how blessed they are.

 

[1ofthem]

For the same reason why Jesus didn't have a 100% success rate.

????So you've read where Jesus prayed over someone and tried to heal them but he couldn't????

You'll have to give me scripture on that one because I've never saw it....

 

[stonesoffire]

Hey! Practice walking on the water! And send us the video!

An example of foolish jesting.

 

[stonesoffire]

????So you've read where Jesus prayed over someone and tried to heal them but he couldn't????

You'll have to give me scripture on that one because I've never saw it....

He couldnt heal those in a certain area because of their unbelief. Please read the scriptures more carefully.