Healing in the Atonement?

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stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#1
.
Isa 53:3 He is despised H959  and rejected H2310  of men; H376  a man H376  of sorrows, H4341
[h=1]H4341[/h]
מַכְאֹבָה מַכְאוֹב מַכְאֹב
mak'ôb mak'ôb mak'ôbâh
mak-obe', mak-obe', mak-o-baw'
From H3510; anguish or (figuratively) affliction: - grief, pain, sorrow.
Total KJV occurrences: 16


and acquainted H3045  with grief: H2483

[h=1]H2483[/h]
חֳלִי
chŏlı̂y
khol-ee'
From H2470; malady, anxiety, calamity: - disease, grief, (is) sick (-ness).
Total KJV occurrences: 24

and we hid H4564  as it were our faces H6440  from H4480  him; he was despised, H959  and we esteemed H2803  him not. H3808




Isa 53:4 Surely H403  he H1931  hath borne H5375
[h=1]H5375[/h]
נָסָה נָשָׂא
nâśâ' nâsâh
naw-saw', naw-saw'
A primitive root; to lift, in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively, absolutely and relatively: - accept, advance, arise, (able to, [armour], suffer to) bear (-er, up), bring (forth), burn, carry (away), cast, contain, desire, ease, exact, exalt (self), extol, fetch, forgive, furnish, further, give, go on, help, high, hold up, honourable (+ man), lade, lay, lift (self) up, lofty, marry, magnify, X needs, obtain, pardon, raise (up), receive, regard, respect, set (up), spare, stir up, + swear, take (away, up), X utterly, wear, yield.
Total KJV occurrences: 653

our griefs, H2483

[h=1]H2483[/h]
חֳלִי
chŏlı̂y
khol-ee'
From H2470; malady, anxiety, calamity: - disease, grief, (is) sick (-ness).
Total KJV occurrences: 24
and carried H5445
[h=1]H5445[/h]
סָבַל
sâbal
saw-bal'
A primitive root; to carry (literally or figuratively), or (reflexively) be burdensome; specifically to be gravid: - bear, be a burden, carry, strong to labour.
Total KJV occurrences:9

our sorrows: H4341

[h=1]H4341[/h]
מַכְאֹבָה מַכְאוֹב מַכְאֹב
mak'ôb mak'ôb mak'ôbâh
mak-obe', mak-obe', mak-o-baw'
From H3510; anguish or (figuratively) affliction: - grief, pain, sorrow.
Total KJV occurrences: 16


yet we H587  did esteem H2803  him stricken, H5060  smitten H5221  of God, H430  and afflicted. H6031
Isa 53:5 But he H1931waswounded H2490  for our transgressions, H4480 H6588he was bruised H1792
[h=1]H1794[/h]
דָּכָה
dâkâh
daw-kaw'
A primitive root (compare H1790, H1792); to collapse (physically or mentally): - break (sore), contrite, crouch.
Total KJV occurrences: 5
for our iniquities: H4480 H5771  the chastisement H4148  of our peace H7965
[h=1]H7965[/h]
שָׁלֹם שָׁלוֹם
shâlôm shâlôm
shaw-lome', shaw-lome'
From H7999; safe, that is, (figuratively) well, happy, friendly; also (abstractly) welfare, that is, health, prosperity, peace: - X do, familiar, X fare, favour, + friend, X greet, (good) health, (X perfect, such as be at) peace (-able, -ably), prosper (-ity, -ous), rest, safe (-ly), salute, welfare, (X all is, be) well, X wholly.
Total KJV occurrences: 236
was upon H5921  him; and with his stripes H2250
[h=1]H2250[/h]
חֲבֻרָה חַבֻּרָה חַבּוּרָה
chabbûrâh chabbûrâh chăbûrâh
(1,2) khab-boo-raw', (3) khab-oo-raw'
From H2266; properly bound (with stripes), that is, a weal (or black and blue mark itself): - blueness, bruise, hurt, stripe, wound.
Total KJV occurrences: 7
we are healed. H7495
[h=1]H7495[/h]
רָפָה רָפָא
râphâ' râphâh
raw-faw', raw-faw'
A primitive root; properly to mend (by stitching), that is, (figuratively) to cure: - cure, (cause to) heal, physician, repair, X thoroughly, make whole. See H7503.
Total KJV occurrences: 68



 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#2
Complete Jewish Bible

isaiah 53:3 People despised and avoided him, a man of pains, well acquainted with illness.

Like someone from whom people turn their faces, he was despised; we did not value him.

4 In fact, it was our diseases he bore, our pains from which he suffered; yet we regarded him as punished, stricken and afflicted by God.

5 But he was wounded because of our crimes, crushed because of our sins; the disciplining that makes us whole fell on him, and by his bruises* we are healed.


53 1 Who believes our report? To whom is the arm of ADONAI revealed?
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,937
113
#4
Well, good effort at least at putting 3 verses together. That is progress. Plus I appreciate the Hebrew. I don't have exegetical commentaries for Isaiah, so having the definitions, even if they refer back to the KJV, which is only a translation, instead of saying how many occurrences there are in the Hebrew Bible is better than nothing. (Because the KJV is not always translated properly!)

I found this in verse 4 interesting, considering I was looking at the NET translation, which was not the usual translation. This word stuck out for me:

[FONT=&quot]nâśâ' nâsâh[/FONT]
naw-saw', naw-saw'
A primitive root; to lift, in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively, absolutely and relatively: - accept, advance, arise, (able to, [armour], suffer to) bear (-er, up), bring (forth), burn, carry (away), cast, contain, desire, ease, exact, exalt (self), extol, fetch, forgive, furnish, further, give, go on, help, high, hold up, honourable (+ man), lade, lay, lift (self) up, lofty, marry, magnify, X needs, obtain, pardon, raise (up), receive, regard, respect, set (up), spare, stir up, + swear, take (away, up), X utterly, wear, yield.

Net uses "lift" rather than "he bore," so now I know why. Because it is better. So thanks for that! I find it interesting that different versions really do differ in their approach to translating these words. Unfortunately, you have not posted which words in the OP go with which verses in the second reply. So here is NET. Please note, I am going to extend these verses from 1-6, simply because I want to point out what gets lost in word studies, and not having context.


1. Who would have believed what we just heard?
When was the Lord’s power revealed through him?
2 2. He sprouted up like a twig before God,
like a root out of parched soil;
he had no stately form or majesty that might catch our attention,
no special appearance that we should want to follow him.
3 3. He was despised and rejected by people,
one who experienced pain and was acquainted with illness;
people hid their faces from him;
he was despised, and we considered him insignificant.
4 4. But he lifted up our illnesses,
he carried our pain;
even though we thought he was being punished,
attacked by God, and afflicted for something he had done.
5 5. He was wounded because of our rebellious deeds,
crushed because of our sins;
he endured punishment that made us well;
because of his wounds we have been healed.
6 6. All of us had wandered off like sheep;
each of us had strayed off on his own path,
but the Lord caused the sin of all of us to attack him. Isa. 53:1-6
[FONT=&quot]

Here is NASB which looks a bit different in places.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Who has believed our message?[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3 He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
[/FONT]
And by His scourging we are healed.
6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all
[FONT=&quot]To fall on Him." Isa. 53:1-6
[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[/FONT]So, quite a difference, but still, the point of the passage is the same. My challenge is to read the passage, from beginning to end, and then tell me what it is about. Is it about us? Is it about what we get? Is it about what we can claim?

Or is this passage about Jesus? Here is my answer. The Jews will not let Isaiah 53 be read in their synagogues to this day. Why do you think that might be? Is it because we get healing? Or is because it describes a perfect picture of the Suffering Messiah, or Suffering Servant?

Verses 1-3, are about the rejection of the Servant. "He was despised and forsaken of men." "He was despised we did not esteem him." Jesus does not have "stately form or majesty." The King has no majesty! I guess not, on the cross, first having a crown of thorns on his head, then being beaten, then dragged to Golgatha and finally crucified.

This is the SUFFERING Messiah. Jesus takes on the pain and suffering of the world!

Then verses 4-6 we see all those words about sin/transgressions, iniquity, rebellious deeds, sins, "our punishment" which he suffered in our place. We had all wandered off like stupid sheep, gone astray.

And if there is any doubt about why he did this - why was he afflicted by God, he suffered for OUR iniquities, OUR sin, and in OUR place! So, this is the part where we come in. Did Jesus suffer so we could be healed? Well, the verse says,

He lifted up our illnesses and carried our pain OR Our griefs he himself bore, and our sorrows he carried.

So, quite a difference. The Hebrew, I think, does use the word "sickness." But, what kind of sickness? Sickness in our bodies, or sickness in our souls? Because the entire book of Isaiah, as I have posted before, is about Isaiah being told to go to the nation of Israel, who were diseased with sin! Here is what God says to Isaiah when he first calls him.

"4. The sinful nation is as good as dead,
the people weighed down by evil deeds.
They are offspring who do wrong,
children who do wicked things.
They have abandoned the Lord,
and rejected the Holy One of Israel.
They are alienated from him.
5 5. Why do you insist on being battered?
Why do you continue to rebel?
Your head has a massive wound,
your whole body is weak.
6 6. From the soles of your feet to your head,
there is no spot that is unharmed.
There are only bruises, cuts,
and open wounds.
They have not been cleansed or bandaged,
nor have they been treated with olive oil.

7 7. Your land is devastated,
your cities burned with fire.
Right before your eyes your crops
are being destroyed by foreign invaders.
They leave behind devastation and destruction." Isaiah 1:4-7
[FONT=&quot]
This is totally a message to to Isaiah to proclaim to Israel who have been wounded and are weak, because they are wicked, weighed down by evil deeds and a sinful nation. That is the CONTEXT of Isaiah.

Isaiah starts with the wounded, sin-sick metaphor right here in Chapter 1, which I have italicized above, and he keeps it up throughout the book. Israel is going down, if they do not repent. In fact, in Isaiah 6, even Isaiah realizes what a wicked sinner he is.


[/FONT]
"I said, “Too bad for me! I am destroyed, for my lips are contaminated by sin, and I live among people whose lips are contaminated by sin. My eyes have seen the king, the Lord who commands armies. 6 But then one of the seraphs flew toward me. In his hand was a hot coal he had taken from the altar with tongs. 7 He touched my mouth with it and said, “Look, this coal has touched your lips. Your evil is removed; your sin is forgiven.” Isaiah 6:5-7

Even Isaiah himself had sin he needed to be burned right out of him.

So, now we get to why some verses say "by his stripes we are healed." It is because we are healed, in the atonement, of sin sickness. In fact, the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Bible, which Jesus and the disciples actually quoted more than the Hebrew Bible, and the Septuagint clearly recognizes Isa. 53:4 as referring to diseased Israel, and translates it as "He himself bore our sins."

Why did the Greek Jews translate it this way? Because they knew that not only did Israel suffer from sin sickness, God took them captive, burned down Solomon's temple, by way of the Babylonians, and these Jews did NOT want Israel to apostasies again.

The first thing in hermeneutics is to look at what some call "the plain meaning of the text." Some might say that means you can take each word literally, and that is the truth. In fact, we need to look at the original meaning, that the AUTHOR plainly intended, and that his AUDIENCE plainly understood. The Bible is a book for all seasons, but it first spoke to the Jews of that century, not to us, in the 21st century, with charlatans teaching things that were never meant to be to either Isaiah, to his audience, and certainly not to God.

This interpretation which the Word Faith and this OP holds is NOT about us claiming healing in the 21st century. It was about a prophecy that the Messiah would come and heal the diseased, sin sick nation of Israel, and when they rejected him, that the Gentiles would be healed of their sin-sickness. This interpretation, in which naming and claiming based on out of context verses (and by out of context, please remember the metaphor that Isaiah himself started with in chapter 1 of this book) which refer to sickness, which in fact is SIN SICKNESS. The Jews knew this in the 3rd century BC when the put the Hebrew into Greek.

Further, if you want to look down to Jesus time, after Christ died on the cross, why were the epistles not written telling people to name and claim their healing? Because, they knew the atonement did NOT contain healing. (Yes, healing happened, but not BECAUSE it was in the atonement). Even if you want to suddenly juxtapose all those verses about Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, our iniquities, with a few weak lines about healing, it simply does not bear the weight of creating an entire doctrine, in fact and entire religious movement, based on healing (and claiming wealth, of course!)

The truth is, Isaiah is about Jesus coming to redeem his people from their sins. That is the meaning of the atonement. No Jew, in Isaiah's day, in Jesus day, or even today would pull healing out of those verses. And no Christian should either.

Pray for healing, and I hope God grants it. But, it is simply NOT part of the atonement.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,937
113
#5
One last simple thing to think on:

The basic reason why healing is not included in the atonement is simple. Christ died to atone for our sins. We are saved when we believe this. We are never accused in the Bible of not having enough faith or doubting our salvation, if we believe Christ died on the cross for our sins.

But neither healing, nor prosperity are included in the atonement, or it would indeed have to be perfect healing, and every Christian a rich person, from the time they are saved. People are not always healed, including those who believe this twisting of Scripture, and God uses that for good.


So again – we are saved when we believe in the atonement. I would hope that this is generally agreed upon, no matter what their denominational background.

BUT, we are not automatically healed, nor do we automatically become rich when we believe in the atonement. The atonement is about sin, not healing or riches.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,763
113
#6
Healing in the Atonement?
The question to ask yourself is which healing is more important to God and for eternity -- the healing of the soul (which will exist for all eternity either in Heaven or in Hell) or the healing of the body (which will exist on earth for 60-90 years and then go back into the dust)?

Yes there is healing in th Atonement, and that is primarily for the healing and salvation of the soul. However, God does not guarantee freedom from sickness, disease, or pain to any child of God. Indeed, children of God can be severely afflicted even while all is well with their souls.

So when we read "that with His stripes we are healed" we should remember that our souls and spirits were washed in the blood of the Lamb, and that blood flowed from His stripes (His back), from His side, from His head, His face, and hands, and feet. Christ shed His blood for our redemption and for the remission of our sins.
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
#7
When you’re sick, the last thing you want to hear are pithy, powerless platitudes from people who are healthy. What you want to hear is good news from someone who has experience healing the sick. This is why I recommend two outstanding books on healing.




Diving Healing Made Simple
, by Praying Medic
The first book is probably the most practical, down-to-earth book on healing you’ll ever read. There’s no hype, just good instruction from a paramedic who has met and healed many sick people. (An ambulance medic who wrote a book about divine healing. Brilliant!) Here’s a taste:

God is the only one who receives the glory for the works that we do. But the fact remains that Jesus told his disciples to heal the sick. He did not tell them to ask the Father to heal the sick. He told them to do it. (p.129)

Divine Healing Made Simple
deals with a number of myths (“God gave me this sickness to teach me character”) and misperceptions (“I’m not good enough to be healed”) that some have about healing. It also addresses lame excuses (“I don’t have the gift of healing”) and puzzling questions (“Why do people known for their healing success sometimes get sick?”).
But the best thing about this book may be the many practical suggestions on how to minister and receiving healing – suggestions that are based on Praying Medic’s own experience in the field. Here are two:

Among my friends who have the highest success rates in healing, there is agreement on one approach that seems to work best. It involves commanding sickness or pain to leave and commanding healing to take its place. Don’t beg or plead with God to heal anyone. The most common mistake people make is begging God to heal. The second is quitting too soon… The vast majority of healings I’ve seen came because I stood there looking like an idiot, repeatedly commanding an injury to be healed until it finally was healed. (p.105)

There aren’t any formulas to this – it’s all faith – but there are definitely some poor ways to pray for healing. As I have explained elsewhere, you can pray like a beggar (“Oh please God”) or a commander (“Sickness be gone!”), but the former approach is seldom based in faith.

Divine Healing Made Simple
is a practical and prophetic book that will inspire you to rise out of the rut of powerless religion and take the sort of faith-risks that were commonplace for Jesus and his first-century followers.




Healing the Sick
, by T.L. Osborn
With more than a million copies in print, chances are you’ve read this book. It’s a classic. Like the book above it’s a solid introduction to the subject of healing written by someone with considerable experience. TL Osborn regularly ministered to tens of thousands of people at a time and typically saw amazing healings in his meetings (cripples running, blind seeing, etc.).

In the Bible we are told that supernatural signs and wonders will follow the preaching of the gospel (Mark 16:20). Miracles happen among those who hear the gospel because the gospel is the power of God for salvation and healing (Rom 1:17). The vast majority of people who were healed at TL Osborn’s meetings weren’t prayed for. They simply received the gospel with faith and were healed. It’s a sign to make you wonder.

At the end of this book (I have the 1992 edition), there is a long chapter called “Our Witness.” It’s a record of evidence of supernatural healings, such as this one:

Juan Santos… had been shot through the spine, destroying his spinal column and the nerves below his waist. It left him totally paralyzed… He dragged himself on the ground with his hands… His head also shook because he had attempted suicide by hitting himself with a club; but the blow only caused the palsy. He could hardly talk because his tongue and throat were partially paralyzed… He was instantly healed and is now as perfect as any man could be. (p.290)

This book is a stick of dynamite for blowing up the dams of doubt in your mind. The stories in it will stir your faith. You’ll read them and think, “If one man can get healed, so can I!”

And this attitude is important because faith and doubt are contagious. As the saying goes, “Feed your faith and starve your doubts.” These books will feed your faith. They’ll do it by painting a picture of life as Jesus defines it.
The last time I saw a healing was this morning. Healing the sick should be normal for a follower of Jesus – Jesus said so (Mark 16:18). But it won’t be normal for you if don’t believe it or if you don’t know how to go about it.

You may think, “This is not for me. I’m not that kind of person. I don’t heal people.” Don’t you believe it! Healing is your Christ-bought prerogative. It is your blessed right as a dearly-loved child of God. If you’ve never seen a healing, don’t feel condemned. Instead, renew your mind and start thanking Jesus in advance for the gift that is already yours in Christ.
 

Lancelot

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2015
168
13
18
#8
Does Isaiah 53:4, 5 apply to us today? If so, what is the context? I think we need to answer those two questions in order to determine if physical healing is provided for in the atonement.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,589
873
113
61
#9
When you’re sick, the last thing you want to hear are pithy, powerless platitudes from people who are healthy. What you want to hear is good news from someone who has experience healing the sick. This is why I recommend two outstanding books on healing.




Diving Healing Made Simple
, by Praying Medic
The first book is probably the most practical, down-to-earth book on healing you’ll ever read. There’s no hype, just good instruction from a paramedic who has met and healed many sick people. (An ambulance medic who wrote a book about divine healing. Brilliant!) Here’s a taste:

God is the only one who receives the glory for the works that we do. But the fact remains that Jesus told his disciples to heal the sick. He did not tell them to ask the Father to heal the sick. He told them to do it. (p.129)

Divine Healing Made Simple
deals with a number of myths (“God gave me this sickness to teach me character”) and misperceptions (“I’m not good enough to be healed”) that some have about healing. It also addresses lame excuses (“I don’t have the gift of healing”) and puzzling questions (“Why do people known for their healing success sometimes get sick?”).
But the best thing about this book may be the many practical suggestions on how to minister and receiving healing – suggestions that are based on Praying Medic’s own experience in the field. Here are two:

Among my friends who have the highest success rates in healing, there is agreement on one approach that seems to work best. It involves commanding sickness or pain to leave and commanding healing to take its place. Don’t beg or plead with God to heal anyone. The most common mistake people make is begging God to heal. The second is quitting too soon… The vast majority of healings I’ve seen came because I stood there looking like an idiot, repeatedly commanding an injury to be healed until it finally was healed. (p.105)

There aren’t any formulas to this – it’s all faith – but there are definitely some poor ways to pray for healing. As I have explained elsewhere, you can pray like a beggar (“Oh please God”) or a commander (“Sickness be gone!”), but the former approach is seldom based in faith.

Divine Healing Made Simple
is a practical and prophetic book that will inspire you to rise out of the rut of powerless religion and take the sort of faith-risks that were commonplace for Jesus and his first-century followers.




Healing the Sick
, by T.L. Osborn
With more than a million copies in print, chances are you’ve read this book. It’s a classic. Like the book above it’s a solid introduction to the subject of healing written by someone with considerable experience. TL Osborn regularly ministered to tens of thousands of people at a time and typically saw amazing healings in his meetings (cripples running, blind seeing, etc.).

In the Bible we are told that supernatural signs and wonders will follow the preaching of the gospel (Mark 16:20). Miracles happen among those who hear the gospel because the gospel is the power of God for salvation and healing (Rom 1:17). The vast majority of people who were healed at TL Osborn’s meetings weren’t prayed for. They simply received the gospel with faith and were healed. It’s a sign to make you wonder.

At the end of this book (I have the 1992 edition), there is a long chapter called “Our Witness.” It’s a record of evidence of supernatural healings, such as this one:

Juan Santos… had been shot through the spine, destroying his spinal column and the nerves below his waist. It left him totally paralyzed… He dragged himself on the ground with his hands… His head also shook because he had attempted suicide by hitting himself with a club; but the blow only caused the palsy. He could hardly talk because his tongue and throat were partially paralyzed… He was instantly healed and is now as perfect as any man could be. (p.290)

This book is a stick of dynamite for blowing up the dams of doubt in your mind. The stories in it will stir your faith. You’ll read them and think, “If one man can get healed, so can I!”

And this attitude is important because faith and doubt are contagious. As the saying goes, “Feed your faith and starve your doubts.” These books will feed your faith. They’ll do it by painting a picture of life as Jesus defines it.
The last time I saw a healing was this morning. Healing the sick should be normal for a follower of Jesus – Jesus said so (Mark 16:18). But it won’t be normal for you if don’t believe it or if you don’t know how to go about it.

You may think, “This is not for me. I’m not that kind of person. I don’t heal people.” Don’t you believe it! Healing is your Christ-bought prerogative. It is your blessed right as a dearly-loved child of God. If you’ve never seen a healing, don’t feel condemned. Instead, renew your mind and start thanking Jesus in advance for the gift that is already yours in Christ.
Joaniemarie, why you promote false teachers like T.L.Osborn? People should trust such false teachings? This has nothing to do with discussing ore bible study.
So Osborn f.e. called Lucy Rael which is obviously a false teacher as sister in the Lord. If you believe in his teachings its up to you. But dont deceive others with his teachings.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,259
431
83
#10
Isaiah 53:5 he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we ""are healed"".
(NOTE: Pre Atonement ""are healed"")

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye ""were healed"".
(NOTE: Post Atonement ""were healed"")

I see healing in the Atonement.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#11
The focus is never on what the eyes see or the literal ears hear according to the letter of the law as that seen (scripture) But is in respect to that not seen , the spiritual understanding hid in parables .

What the Spirit says to the church as he gives us ears to make it possible to seek him who has no form.

In that way without parables Christ spoke not. The whole gospel (Christ pursuing, wooing a wife) is signified in that way .
God uses temporal healing to point to the unseen eternal but it never becomes the eternal.

The gospel is hid in the parable below.

Luke 7:22 Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#12
Healing is in the oil and wine
I appreciate your post pin. There is so much to be seen in the anointing oil, and experienced in the anointing, forvthis is Holy Spirit. The wine can represent His blood, but also the fruit of joy. Righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost!

But, it's His body and His blood of atonement who heals us. Communion with Him. To "know" this is to receive the Divine nature of His life. And He heals all of us to wholeness.

Ive also found to be true that healing comes in the glory! The presence of Holy Spirit who comes into the meetings, and touches us in many different ways. He truly provides all our needs.

God is so good and loving to us His own.

A new revelation of the failure of Cain has come to me from looking at the blood covenant. This is from Trumbull who wrote about this. Abel gave of himself to the Lord with his offering. Completely gave himself, his all. Cain, just what was required, but of the cursed ground..

Much to think about with this.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#13
If physical healing was provided in the atonement, then once a person was saved, all sickness and death would have ceased, We could talk to paul the apostle, and peter. And even john and have all of our arguments set straight about what they said, because they would still be alive,’’the fact they are dead proves physical healing is not included.
 

Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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#14
Does Isaiah 53:4, 5 apply to us today? If so, what is the context? I think we need to answer those two questions in order to determine if physical healing is provided for in the atonement.
Read Angela's post. :)
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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#15
One last simple thing to think on:

The basic reason why healing is not included in the atonement is simple. Christ died to atone for our sins. We are saved when we believe this. We are never accused in the Bible of not having enough faith or doubting our salvation, if we believe Christ died on the cross for our sins.

But neither healing, nor prosperity are included in the atonement, or it would indeed have to be perfect healing, and every Christian a rich person, from the time they are saved. People are not always healed, including those who believe this twisting of Scripture, and God uses that for good.


So again – we are saved when we believe in the atonement. I would hope that this is generally agreed upon, no matter what their denominational background.

BUT, we are not automatically healed, nor do we automatically become rich when we believe in the atonement. The atonement is about sin, not healing or riches.
Theres a lot said about leprousy in the OT Angela. It's a disease found in the blood that manifests as corruption in the body. Unclean. The life of one, animal or man is found in the blood. The blood of Jesus, is of God Himself. Uncorrupted eternal life is found there. If you can receive this truth, it will change your thinking.

We have His Spiritual DNA, in our spirit. Am sure you have seen the Greek explanation of His Spirit intertwining within , like braiding, another English word to describe.

No death is present. Pure blood teeming of life! Or pure life. That is what we have within. If we walk in this, walk in Spirit, as spiritual men and women of God, do you not think that life will affect our souls, and our bodies? Nor do we live in the lust of the flesh. That is not a sexual lust alone!

How would you explain this?

If that same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, lives in you, then He will quicken your mortal body by that same Spirit, that raised Him from death. Life!

We aren't to dwell in, "dead to sin"... ...but "alive unto God". It's time for ressurrection life's rising!


I did forget to make my point about atonement and leprousy. If an animals sacrifice can make ones blood clean again, healing the leper, How much more the blood of Jesus, Son of God cleanse our blood unto life!
 
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Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
2,824
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#16
Isaiah 53:5 he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we ""are healed"".
(NOTE: Pre Atonement ""are healed"")

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye ""were healed"".
(NOTE: Post Atonement ""were healed"")

I see healing in the Atonement.
Hi Flyingdove,

What is the context of 1 Peter? What is he discussing? He's talking about our sin, not our bodily illnesses. It says that Jesus bore our sins on the cross in His body.......that we now are dead to our sins and live righteously.

It's all about the condition of our heart and soul that was sinful, unrighteous. But now, through the stripes that Jesus bore on the cross for us, we are now healed of our sinfulness, of our heart to sin and live in unrighteousness. We've been set free and are healed to live in righteousness. There is no mention of bodily sickness here at all.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
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#17
When you’re sick, the last thing you want to hear are pithy, powerless platitudes from people who are healthy. What you want to hear is good news from someone who has experience healing the sick. This is why I recommend two outstanding books on healing.




Diving Healing Made Simple
, by Praying Medic
The first book is probably the most practical, down-to-earth book on healing you’ll ever read. There’s no hype, just good instruction from a paramedic who has met and healed many sick people. (An ambulance medic who wrote a book about divine healing. Brilliant!) Here’s a taste:

God is the only one who receives the glory for the works that we do. But the fact remains that Jesus told his disciples to heal the sick. He did not tell them to ask the Father to heal the sick. He told them to do it. (p.129)

Divine Healing Made Simple
deals with a number of myths (“God gave me this sickness to teach me character”) and misperceptions (“I’m not good enough to be healed”) that some have about healing. It also addresses lame excuses (“I don’t have the gift of healing”) and puzzling questions (“Why do people known for their healing success sometimes get sick?”).
But the best thing about this book may be the many practical suggestions on how to minister and receiving healing – suggestions that are based on Praying Medic’s own experience in the field. Here are two:

Among my friends who have the highest success rates in healing, there is agreement on one approach that seems to work best. It involves commanding sickness or pain to leave and commanding healing to take its place. Don’t beg or plead with God to heal anyone. The most common mistake people make is begging God to heal. The second is quitting too soon… The vast majority of healings I’ve seen came because I stood there looking like an idiot, repeatedly commanding an injury to be healed until it finally was healed. (p.105)

There aren’t any formulas to this – it’s all faith – but there are definitely some poor ways to pray for healing. As I have explained elsewhere, you can pray like a beggar (“Oh please God”) or a commander (“Sickness be gone!”), but the former approach is seldom based in faith.

Divine Healing Made Simple
is a practical and prophetic book that will inspire you to rise out of the rut of powerless religion and take the sort of faith-risks that were commonplace for Jesus and his first-century followers.




Healing the Sick
, by T.L. Osborn
With more than a million copies in print, chances are you’ve read this book. It’s a classic. Like the book above it’s a solid introduction to the subject of healing written by someone with considerable experience. TL Osborn regularly ministered to tens of thousands of people at a time and typically saw amazing healings in his meetings (cripples running, blind seeing, etc.).

In the Bible we are told that supernatural signs and wonders will follow the preaching of the gospel (Mark 16:20). Miracles happen among those who hear the gospel because the gospel is the power of God for salvation and healing (Rom 1:17). The vast majority of people who were healed at TL Osborn’s meetings weren’t prayed for. They simply received the gospel with faith and were healed. It’s a sign to make you wonder.

At the end of this book (I have the 1992 edition), there is a long chapter called “Our Witness.” It’s a record of evidence of supernatural healings, such as this one:

Juan Santos… had been shot through the spine, destroying his spinal column and the nerves below his waist. It left him totally paralyzed… He dragged himself on the ground with his hands… His head also shook because he had attempted suicide by hitting himself with a club; but the blow only caused the palsy. He could hardly talk because his tongue and throat were partially paralyzed… He was instantly healed and is now as perfect as any man could be. (p.290)

This book is a stick of dynamite for blowing up the dams of doubt in your mind. The stories in it will stir your faith. You’ll read them and think, “If one man can get healed, so can I!”

And this attitude is important because faith and doubt are contagious. As the saying goes, “Feed your faith and starve your doubts.” These books will feed your faith. They’ll do it by painting a picture of life as Jesus defines it.
The last time I saw a healing was this morning. Healing the sick should be normal for a follower of Jesus – Jesus said so (Mark 16:18). But it won’t be normal for you if don’t believe it or if you don’t know how to go about it.

You may think, “This is not for me. I’m not that kind of person. I don’t heal people.” Don’t you believe it! Healing is your Christ-bought prerogative. It is your blessed right as a dearly-loved child of God. If you’ve never seen a healing, don’t feel condemned. Instead, renew your mind and start thanking Jesus in advance for the gift that is already yours in Christ.


No one is saying God does not heal. At least, I am not! But if it is not God’s will, it won’t happen. It is not automatically included in the atonement. See my post above!

As for your first copy and paste, seriously??? Here I sit, with serious debliatiting Rheumatoid Disease, and asthma now active because of a cold, plus about 3 other diseases. I have suffered so badly, I cannot get out of bed, feed myself or go to the bathroom on my own. I KNOW what suffering is. I also understand the accompanying depression that comes with being chronically ill.

Yet, you have the nerve to post:

When you’re sick, the last thing you want to hear are pithy, powerless platitudes from people who are healthy.
When I speak of healing, it is from 20 years + of pain and disabilty. It is from a point of someone who was prayed over, by Word Faith people. It was myself believing God for a physcial healing that never came, although the doctors have been instrumental in gettting me up and active.

I never tell people any kind of platitudes! Everything I say comes directly out of the Bible, and from my own experiences not just of pain and suffering, but from how none of this Word Faith stuff works! And the people I know that claimed healing, when they had cancer, and died because they did not accept medical treatment. And I am not the only one in this forum who knew someone who was deceived by these deliberate twistings of Scripture, especially when it came to divine healing of cancer, and died because of these lies!

And they amazing miracles God worked in my life’s through sickness, and how God walked me out of depression, caused by the pain and suffering. All the years God taught me in his Word, as I read daily, and the Holy Spirit quickened the words I was reading, and showed me how God was with me, he knew my pain, and I should praise him anyway!

Word Faith and hypergrace are unbilblical lies from the devil. We need to seek God, in prayer and in his Word, not seek power for healing.

book that will inspire you to rise out of the rut of powerless religion.
That is the same story as Simon the magician in Acts 8. That is what the first charlatan you posted said.

Now in that city was a man named Simon, who had been practicing magic and amazing the people of Samaria, claiming to be someone great. 10 All the people, from the least to the greatest, paid close attention to him, saying, “This man is the power of God that is called ‘Great.’” 11 And they paid close attention to him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic. 12 But when they believed Philip as he was proclaiming the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they began to be baptized, both men and women. 13 Even Simon himself believed, and after he was baptized, he stayed close to Philip constantly, and when he saw the signs and great miracles that were occurring, he was amazed.” Acts 8:9-13

Now Simon, when he saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, offered them money, 19 saying, “Give me this power too, so that everyone I place my hands on may receive the Holy Spirit.” 20 But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could acquire God’s gift with money! 21 You have no share or part in this matter because your heart is not right before God! 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray to the Lord that he may perhaps forgive you for the intent of your heart. 23 For I see that you are bitterly envious and in bondage to sin.” 24 But Simon replied, “You pray to the Lord for me so that nothing of what you have said may happen to me.” Acts 8:18-24
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Your teachers are Simon the Magician, wanting power for all the wrong reasons! You are Simon the Magician, promoting false teachers who are seeking power, instead of Jesus!

Beware the false teachers and their adherents, who want you to buy their books, contribute to their ministries, when all they have is a twisted and false gospel and a different gospel.

I am still waiting for YOU to post Scriptures. Your first book, written by Simon the Magician, does not have ONE Bible verse. The second book has 2 addresses thrown into to look spiritual. Well, we are no longer deceived by addresses. We want proper exegesis of the Word. Which you are completely unable to give!
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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#18
Hi Flyingdove,

What is the context of 1 Peter? What is he discussing? He's talking about our sin, not our bodily illnesses. It says that Jesus bore our sins on the cross in His body.......that we now are dead to our sins and live righteously.

It's all about the condition of our heart and soul that was sinful, unrighteous. But now, through the stripes that Jesus bore on the cross for us, we are now healed of our sinfulness, of our heart to sin and live in unrighteousness. We've been set free and are healed to live in righteousness. There is no mention of bodily sickness here at all.
Desert Rose

The second post made here is the Complete Jewish bible.

its Hebrew translated to English and is accurate. Read it.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
12,818
8,596
113
#19
Theres a lot said about leprousy in the OT Angela. It's a disease found in the blood that manifests as corruption in the body. Unclean. The life of one, animal or man is found in the blood. The blood of Jesus, is of God Himself. Uncorrupted eternal life is found there. If you can receive this truth, it will change your thinking.

We have His Spiritual DNA, in our spirit. Am sure you have seen the Greek explanation of His Spirit intertwining within , like braiding, another English word to describe.

No death is present. Pure blood teeming of life! Or pure life. That is what we have within. If we walk in this, walk in Spirit, as spiritual men and women of God, do you not think that life will affect our souls, and our bodies? Nor do we live in the lust of the flesh. That is not a sexual lust alone!

How would you explain this?

If that same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, lives in you, then He will quicken your mortal body by that same Spirit, that raised Him from death. Life!

We aren't to dwell in, "dead to sin"... ...but "alive unto God". It's time for ressurrection life's rising!
Our born again Spirit lives in a fallen body of death!

I will never say that the Lord won't heal, but do you really want to be perfected in health in the imperfect body you now inhabit on Earth?

Don't you long for your New heart to be placed into it's new glorified habitation?
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#20
One last simple thing to think on:

The basic reason why healing is not included in the atonement is simple. Christ died to atone for our sins. We are saved when we believe this. We are never accused in the Bible of not having enough faith or doubting our salvation, if we believe Christ died on the cross for our sins.

But neither healing, nor prosperity are included in the atonement, or it would indeed have to be perfect healing, and every Christian a rich person, from the time they are saved. People are not always healed, including those who believe this twisting of Scripture, and God uses that for good.


So again – we are saved when we believe in the atonement. I would hope that this is generally agreed upon, no matter what their denominational background.

BUT, we are not automatically healed, nor do we automatically become rich when we believe in the atonement. The atonement is about sin, not healing or riches.
the point I like to make, is that Jesus healed BEFORE He died....but He had to DIE ... His blood had to be shed...for the remission of sins

no blood...no forgiveness

again, OT a great source for understanding on that point

I agree what you say about healing and it is a spurious and just plain untrue argument for anyone to state that a person does not believe in healing if they do not believe the WOF cult ideas about it