KING JAMES VERSION BIBLE VS. MODERN ENGLISH BIBLES

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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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The Apostles' Creed is not "fundamental" because it is in turn based on the foundation of Scripture.

I used both adjectives with "and" quite intentionally. :)
Why do you think its based on Scripture and not on apostolic teaching?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.


These are scriptures Peter full of the Holy Ghost quoted on Pentecost when the church grew rapidly.
And his comments were all helps in understanding scripture.

Scripture is that which all saints need to study, use and agree with.
One reason God chose Abraham unto the nation of Israel was to establish his written word and to provide all mankind the oracles of God.
The Lord desires to write his word in our hearts.
So the written word of God is eternal and indispensable to the Christian.
It seems to me that you think that Scriptures are our goal and the center of our life.

I think that God is our goal and Scriptures are used for proving, correction etc. Of course that apostles and Christ used Scriptures. I do use Scriptures, too.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
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Oh dear! That's quite extreme. How far is this going to go? A new sect of weirdos? The problem is it makes it look to the world like all Christians are bonkers. How can one honestly sell that when witnessing? "You must believe in The Lord Jesus Christ AND learn antiquated English to be saved."
For the record the site is satirical. ;)
 
Nov 23, 2013
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Josaphat (Matthew) = Jehoshapat (Kings, Chronicles)
Joram (Matthew) = Jehoram (Kings, Chronicles).

So far no problem; I knew these ones already. Now...

According to Matthew 1:

Josaphat, Joram, Ozias, Joatham, Achaz, Ezekias

According to 1 Chronicles 3:10-14

Jehoshaphat, Joram, Ahaziah, Joash, Amaziah, Azariah, Jotham, Ahaz, Hezekiah

According to Kings:
Jehoshaphat (1 Kings 22:50)
Jehoram (2 Kings 8:16)
Ahaziah (8:25)
Joash (11:2 and 21; 13:1; 14:1) aka Jehoash (11:21 and 12:1, 6, 7, 18)
Amaziah (14:1)
Azariah (15:1; 52 yrs) aka Uzziah (15:13 and 34), aka Uzzah (15:32)
Jotham (15:32)
Ahaz (16:1)
Hezekiah (18:1)

According to 2 Chronicles:
Jehoshaphat (17:1)
Jehoram (21:1)
Jehoahaz (21:17 and 25:23, 25) aka Ahaziah (22:1, 7, 8, 9, 10) aka Azariah (22:6)
Joash (22:11)
Amaziah (24:27)
Uzziah (26:1)
Jotham (26:23)
Ahaz (27:9)
Hezekiah (28:27)

So, while Ozias of Matthew is consistent with Azariah/Uzziah/Uzza of 2 Kings and Uzziah of 2 Chronicles, it still can't be the same person as Ahaziah/Azariah/Jehoahaz of 2 Chronicles because Uzziah is three generations later.

Further, there is an "Azariah son of Jehoram" listed in 2 Chronicles 23:1, allowing the possibility that the Azariah of 22:6 is not Ahaziah, as Ahaziah was slain in 22:9.

There still is only one Ahaziah, king of Judah. There is still a contradiction (actually, several) in the KJV.
The KJV is giving you overwhelming evidence that there are 2 Ahaziah's and 2 Jehoram's. 2 ages for the beginning of their reign, 2 start of reign dates, one Ahaziah that died and one that's alive.

The more we discuss this, more evidence of 2 Ahaziah's keeps coming up. Keep in mind that "son" doesn't necessarily mean an immediate son, it sometimes means grand father etc. The same with mother.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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The KJV is giving you overwhelming evidence that there are 2 Ahaziah's and 2 Jehoram's. 2 ages for the beginning of their reign, 2 start of reign dates, one Ahaziah that died and one that's alive.

The more we discuss this, more evidence of 2 Ahaziah's keeps coming up. Keep in mind that "son" doesn't necessarily mean an immediate son, it sometimes means grand father etc. The same with mother.
I'm shaking my head at this. There is no evidence of two different kings of Judah named Ahaziah. There were two kings named Ahaziah, but one was king of Israel, and only one was king of Judah. The contradiction still stands.

If you see evidence for two of Judah, other than the two different ages, you're welcome to post it. Non-evidential comments don't add anything at this point.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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Do you really not understand that Joram is Jehoram or that Ozias is Ahaziah?

Matthew 1:8 King James Version (KJV)

8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;



...............JUDAH...................................................................ISRAEL


...............Asa........................................................................Ahab
................|..............................................................................|
...........Jehoshaphat..............................................................Amaziah
................|...............................................................................|
.............Jehoram (joram)..............................................Jehoram (Joram) 2Ki 8:25 son (grandson) of Ahab
................|.......................................................................__________ In Hebrew בֶן can mean son or grandson
.............Ahaziah.........................................................................Jehu
................|...................................................................................|
.............Joash............................................................................Jehoahaz
................|...................................................................................|
............Amaziah (Ozias Mt 1:8)......................................................Jehoash (Joash)
................|...................................................................................|
............Azariah...........................................................................Jeroboam
................|...................................................................................|
.............Jotham (son (grandson of Ozias Mat 1:9)............................Zachariah
 
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MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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..............
..............
JUDAH.....................................................ISRAEL


...............Asa........................................................Ahab
................|.............................................................|
...........Jehoshaphat................. .............................Amaziah
................|.............................................................|
........Jehoram (joram).......................................Jehoram (Joram) 2Ki 8:25 son (grandson) of Ahab
................|....................................................__________ In Hebrew בֶן can mean son or grandson
.............Ahaziah......................................................Jehu
................|..............................................................|
.............Joash.......................................................Jehoahaz
................|..............................................................|
............Amaziah (Ozias Mt 1:8).................................Jehoash (Joash)
................|...............................................................|
............Azariah......................................................Jeroboam
................|..............................................................|
.............Jotham (son (grandson of Ozias Mat 1:9).......Zachariah

excuse the double post it looked right before I posted it the first time
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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If I could figure out how to create a multiple-column post, I'd do it. I couldn't even get tab spacing to work.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,261
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If I could figure out how to create a multiple-column post, I'd do it. I couldn't even get tab spacing to work.
Do you have excel on your machine? I have it at work but not at home. One should be able to type into columns in an excel spreadsheet then cut & paste into the forum.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,672
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Do you have excel on your machine? I have it at work but not at home. One should be able to type into columns in an excel spreadsheet then cut & paste into the forum.
I don't have Excel at home but I'll try with the tools I have.... sometime. :)
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
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Josaphat (Matthew) = Jehoshapat (Kings, Chronicles)
Joram (Matthew) = Jehoram (Kings, Chronicles).

So far no problem; I knew these ones already. Now...

According to Matthew 1:

Josaphat, Joram, Ozias, Joatham, Achaz, Ezekias

According to 1 Chronicles 3:10-14

Jehoshaphat, Joram, Ahaziah, Joash, Amaziah, Azariah, Jotham, Ahaz, Hezekiah

According to Kings:
Jehoshaphat (1 Kings 22:50)
Jehoram (2 Kings 8:16)
Ahaziah (8:25)
Joash (11:2 and 21; 13:1; 14:1) aka Jehoash (11:21 and 12:1, 6, 7, 18)
Amaziah (14:1)
Azariah (15:1; 52 yrs) aka Uzziah (15:13 and 34), aka Uzzah (15:32)
Jotham (15:32)
Ahaz (16:1)
Hezekiah (18:1)

According to 2 Chronicles:
Jehoshaphat (17:1)
Jehoram (21:1)
Jehoahaz (21:17 and 25:23, 25) aka Ahaziah (22:1, 7, 8, 9, 10) aka Azariah (22:6)
Joash (22:11)
Amaziah (24:27)
Uzziah (26:1)
Jotham (26:23)
Ahaz (27:9)
Hezekiah (28:27)

So, while Ozias of Matthew is consistent with Azariah/Uzziah/Uzza of 2 Kings and Uzziah of 2 Chronicles, it still can't be the same person as Ahaziah/Azariah/Jehoahaz of 2 Chronicles because Uzziah is three generations later.

Further, there is an "Azariah son of Jehoram" listed in 2 Chronicles 23:1, allowing the possibility that the Azariah of 22:6 is not Ahaziah, as Ahaziah was slain in 22:9.

There still is only one Ahaziah, king of Judah. There is still a contradiction (actually, several) in the KJV.
I just realized that Azariah in 2 Chronicles 23:1 is actually the son of Jeroham and not Jehoram.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
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trofimus said:
It seems to me that you think that Scriptures are our goal and the center of our life.

I think that God is our goal and Scriptures are used for proving, correction etc. Of course that apostles and Christ used Scriptures. I do use Scriptures, too.
I understood you as suggesting that the early church assembled without much use or need of scriptures. The scripture tells us that scripture is vital. When Jesus said...

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.


He proved the intimate connection of his words with our spirit and life.
That means God’s words are vital.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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English simply has to be updated sometimes. You can't read these KJ verses aloud in church!
They're not decent I tell thee. ;)


Jos 9:4
They did work wilily, and went and made as if they had been ambassadors, and took old sacks upon their asses, and wine bottles, old, and rent, and bound up;

1Sa 8:16
And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.

1Sa 9:3
And the asses of Kish Saul's father were lost. And Kish said to Saul his son, Take now one of the servants with thee, and arise, go seek the asses.

2Sa 16:2
And the king said unto Ziba, What meanest thou by these? And Ziba said, The asses be for the king's household to ride on; and the bread and summer fruit for the young men to eat; and the wine, that such as be faint in the wilderness may drink.

2Ki 4:22
And she called unto her husband, and said, Send me, I pray thee, one of the young men, and one of the asses, that I may run to the man of God, and come again.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,599
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English simply has to be updated sometimes. You can't read these KJ verses aloud in church!
They're not decent I tell thee. ;)


Jos 9:4
They did work wilily, and went and made as if they had been ambassadors, and took old sacks upon their asses, and wine bottles, old, and rent, and bound up;

1Sa 8:16
And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.

1Sa 9:3
And the asses of Kish Saul's father were lost. And Kish said to Saul his son, Take now one of the servants with thee, and arise, go seek the asses.

2Sa 16:2
And the king said unto Ziba, What meanest thou by these? And Ziba said, The asses be for the king's household to ride on; and the bread and summer fruit for the young men to eat; and the wine, that such as be faint in the wilderness may drink.

2Ki 4:22
And she called unto her husband, and said, Send me, I pray thee, one of the young men, and one of the asses, that I may run to the man of God, and come again.
Soooo when the world perverts biblical words, we need to update the words of the bible so not to offend? That's crazy talk. Should we change the name of Jesus because it's offensive to some? Not a chance.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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Soooo when the world perverts biblical words, we need to update the words of the bible so not to offend? That's crazy talk. Should we change the name of Jesus because it's offensive to some? Not a chance.
You take yourself far too seriously my friend.