If people looked at the writings of Paul they would see the law was added. So that says there must have been something for it to be added to. That would be grace. If as the Word says Abraham was a man who obeyed all Gods laws and commandments, so what were those laws. There were none written down. We know he heard God and obeyed. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. There is lot one can learn from studying the father of all nations in regards to this law and grace issue. To much for me to write here that I have learnt. His interaction with Melchezidek, the king of peace, a priest and a king, who shared bread and wine with Abraham, and who Abraham tithed to. Jesus of course being a priest and a king after the order of Melchezidek. And as Jesus said not one jot or tittle of the law shall pass away then told us the whole of the law hangs under two commandments love God and love your brother. Then He said He came to fulfill the law by being the only one and only acceptable sacrifice. Remembering of course after He died and Ascended the temple was destroyed so there was no where for the Israelites to sacrifice animals anymore. We are not bound by the law that was given to the Israelite nation, we are of course under the grace that has always existed.
How To Be Un-Saved
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Romans 8 actually confirms the security of a believer 
The no condemnation is based only on our position (IN Christ). So those IN Christ are no longer condemned.
The chapter is too long to post, so pulling out some verses (in context though)...
V9-11: "But you (believers) are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you"
V16-17: "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together" (the "if indeed" is not a condition, it is confirmation that we will suffer with Him, since we're no longer of the world... and a servant is not greater than their master)
V28-30: "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified" (guarantee of completion. Author and finisher of our faith)
The no condemnation is based only on our position (IN Christ). So those IN Christ are no longer condemned.
The chapter is too long to post, so pulling out some verses (in context though)...
V9-11: "But you (believers) are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you"
V16-17: "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together" (the "if indeed" is not a condition, it is confirmation that we will suffer with Him, since we're no longer of the world... and a servant is not greater than their master)
V28-30: "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified" (guarantee of completion. Author and finisher of our faith)
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Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Romans 8:5-9
Paul is brutal. Live by the Spirit, have life, controlled by the Spirit.
Live by the sinful nature, death, not have the Spirit, not belong to Christ.
Paul is spelling out even if you have faith if you follow your sinful nature, death,
no Holy Spirit, do not belong to Christ.
This has no security, rather the opposite.
The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;
the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
Romans 8:5-9
Paul is brutal. Live by the Spirit, have life, controlled by the Spirit.
Live by the sinful nature, death, not have the Spirit, not belong to Christ.
Paul is spelling out even if you have faith if you follow your sinful nature, death,
no Holy Spirit, do not belong to Christ.
This has no security, rather the opposite.
Galatians 3:16-19
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
That's exactly what it was. It was a covenant with the Jews. Period. It's only purpose was to show they couldn't keep it perfectly enough to be saved, and to point them to the coming Messiah.
Your problem is, you're an Arminianist who mixes the Law with grace, picking and choosing what laws to keep, adding conditions such as good works to the gift of salvation, while claiming such inane things as one can lose salvation based on performance/obedience. And if it is lost, one can never be saved again.
Your theology is as mixed up as Mulligan stew. You just add whatever is laying around to it.
Your problem is, you're an Arminianist who mixes the Law with grace, picking and choosing what laws to keep, adding conditions such as good works to the gift of salvation, while claiming such inane things as one can lose salvation based on performance/obedience. And if it is lost, one can never be saved again.
Your theology is as mixed up as Mulligan stew. You just add whatever is laying around to it.
That's pretty much what I said.
It was a schoolmaster to point them to Christ. The Jews weren't saved any different than how we are. Only through faith in the Messiah. They looked forward in faith, and we look back in faith.
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:24)
You have managed to present everything from the human side. Now you should also present everything from the Divine side. How does the triune Godhead see the one who has been born from above, born of the Spirit, and born again? And what has God provided in order to guarantee the eternal security of the believer? What is unique about the finished work of Christ?
Jesus said one thing to ensure that a person is saved, and that is, The one who endures to the end shall be saved. and that is having the faith to know that you are saved.He did not say ,to know if you will be saved that you had to wait and see upon your death. That really would make Jesus un trustworthy, now would it.
Here is the judgement of believers:
1 Pet. 4:17: “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?”
Isa. 43:25: “I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. “
Heb. 8:12: “For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.”
Heb. 10:17: “And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” just saying...
1 Pet. 4:17: “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?”
Isa. 43:25: “I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. “
Heb. 8:12: “For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.”
Heb. 10:17: “And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” just saying...
D...,
No question on scriptures listed providing they ...maintain until the end...(death/rapture).
However, the operative word there is....believers. It only applies to them...not anyone else....which would include backsliders.
R
Faith. He has provided the power of faith to guarantee the eternal security of the believer. The Holy Spirit in our lives is the evidence of that faith. And so in that sense, the Holy Spirit is the sign of the covenant promise between God and man. Having the Holy Spirit shows you believe in and, therefore, possess the promises. And you know that you really believe, and that you really have the Holy Spirit as a result of your believing, by how you behave. If you do not live according to the fruit of the Spirit you may not have the Holy Spirit.
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R
Just because it is no longer the covenant between God and his people hardly means that was the only purpose of it. The NT is full of the teachings of the law to instruct God's people how to live. The sad part is you're so indoctrinated that you probably can only hear that as "he's saying we have to keep the literal law of Sabbath".
Only purpose?
That's not what Paul said, but you do not know this.
And even if I showed where he said it to you, you would not be able to see it.
No. I do not mix law and grace to be justified.
Grace is the ONLY way to be justified.
Justified people then uphold the law.
You do not know this.
The Bible itself explains what we no longer HAVE to literally keep in the law of Moses.
You think it says we don't have to keep ANY of it.
You are an ignorant Protestant.
Not entirely your fault though.
Becoming a new creation who no longer lives in sin like he did before salvation is in fact a condition of salvation. If you are the same dead person you were before you believe, then you aren't the saved person you think you are.
WRONG!
You do not listen.
You are an ignorant, indoctrinated Protestant. You are incapable of listening.
Again, this is not entirely your fault.
It's the fault of the leadership of the church.
You can forfeit your salvation because of loss of faith, not because of a certain quantifiable amount of sinning.
Like I say, you do not listen. You do not listen because you can not hear.
Correct.
Hebrews uses the example of Esau to illustrate this truth.
Go back to the world and you are in danger of forfeiting the inheritance and not being able to convince God, even with tears, to change his mind and let you have it again. This is right in the Bible that you have been taught to not be able to see.
I add the parts back in that the church made you not be able to see. And because you can not see you can not realize that's what I'm doing.
Only purpose?
That's not what Paul said, but you do not know this.
And even if I showed where he said it to you, you would not be able to see it.
No. I do not mix law and grace to be justified.
Grace is the ONLY way to be justified.
Justified people then uphold the law.
You do not know this.
The Bible itself explains what we no longer HAVE to literally keep in the law of Moses.
You think it says we don't have to keep ANY of it.
You are an ignorant Protestant.
Not entirely your fault though.
Becoming a new creation who no longer lives in sin like he did before salvation is in fact a condition of salvation. If you are the same dead person you were before you believe, then you aren't the saved person you think you are.
WRONG!
You do not listen.
You are an ignorant, indoctrinated Protestant. You are incapable of listening.
Again, this is not entirely your fault.
It's the fault of the leadership of the church.
You can forfeit your salvation because of loss of faith, not because of a certain quantifiable amount of sinning.
Like I say, you do not listen. You do not listen because you can not hear.
Correct.
Hebrews uses the example of Esau to illustrate this truth.
Go back to the world and you are in danger of forfeiting the inheritance and not being able to convince God, even with tears, to change his mind and let you have it again. This is right in the Bible that you have been taught to not be able to see.
I add the parts back in that the church made you not be able to see. And because you can not see you can not realize that's what I'm doing.
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Historically english common law is founded on the principles of the Mosaic law.
The law was given to run a country. And it worked.
It is just staggeringly ignorant to dismiss this unique divine book of criminal, civil and
ceremonial law as just to show man was a sinner. That has always been obvious.
The question that was not obvious was how can man find his way back to God, which
is why Israel were saved as the example of that path.
And if you want an example of how heretical a school of theology is, it is when something
is simplified so much it dismisses the core issues God is addressing. And what seals this is
when only part of Gods revelation is accepted, and the rest bent so badly nothing hangs
together and must be rejected and rewritten with new meanings to obvious biblically defined
words that God has clearly laid out.
The law was given to run a country. And it worked.
It is just staggeringly ignorant to dismiss this unique divine book of criminal, civil and
ceremonial law as just to show man was a sinner. That has always been obvious.
The question that was not obvious was how can man find his way back to God, which
is why Israel were saved as the example of that path.
And if you want an example of how heretical a school of theology is, it is when something
is simplified so much it dismisses the core issues God is addressing. And what seals this is
when only part of Gods revelation is accepted, and the rest bent so badly nothing hangs
together and must be rejected and rewritten with new meanings to obvious biblically defined
words that God has clearly laid out.
An inheritance, incorruptible and undefiled, which does not fade away...
1 Peter 1:3-9:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls"
1 Peter 1:3-9:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls"
Esau was NOT a man of faith to begin with, so the question of losing his salvation is moot. The proof of his not having faith is that he willingly gave up his birthright for a little bit of food. That he shed tears in order to recover that does not mean a whole lot, since Esau and Edom became bitter enemies of Israel, and were condemned by God.
A
Paul was absolutely not spelling out "even if you have faith, if you follow your sinful nature, death, no Holy Spirit, do not belong to Christ." That's ludicrous! If you have faith, it's by the faith of Jesus Christ, not man's little wishy-washy mind-over-matter faith. Even if we deny Him, Christ still remains faithful. He cannot deny Himself!
You just posted what Paul said in truth, "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you."
If you are controlled by the Spirit of God, God is guiding your life. He is your Lord and reigns in you. You, my friend, are crucified with Christ. Your old self is DEAD according to Jesus! You ain't gonna raise that dead man up again. Because the Lord has redeemed you and you are no longer your own. He deals with us as spiritual sons now, not as carnal beings.
You just posted what Paul said in truth, "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you."
If you are controlled by the Spirit of God, God is guiding your life. He is your Lord and reigns in you. You, my friend, are crucified with Christ. Your old self is DEAD according to Jesus! You ain't gonna raise that dead man up again. Because the Lord has redeemed you and you are no longer your own. He deals with us as spiritual sons now, not as carnal beings.
R
Careful, Auntie. The passage says it is when we are faithless that he remains faithful, not if we deny him he reamains faithful and cannot deny Himself.
It is when we deny him, that is when he will deny us.
If we deny Him, He also will deny us; 13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
Paul is showing there is a difference between being faithless and outright denying Christ. All of us at one time of another are faithless but Christ remains faithful to us. But it is if we deny him that he will then deny us.
Which is exactly why those who claim they are in Christ but who are not changed people growing up into Christ are not saved. They can claim they are all day long but their lives betray the confidence they so boldly proclaim. I guess a lot of people think saying you're saved with confidence and surety is the faith that secures God's grace in salvation.
R
I used to have similar thoughts about it too. But now it's clear to me that it does mean a lot. Apparently the author does not agree with your thoughts about the story of Esau not meaning anything to believers because Esau himself was not a man of faith. He gives this warning to not be like Esau to believers.
And let's say that the author does not mean losing the inheritance/salvation but rather is talking about losing the manifest benefits of one's salvation. That would be saying God will not change his mind about letting a Christian once again enjoy the benefits of his salvation and will ignore even the tearful plea to walk in the fullness of the inheritance again.
"15See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God...6that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears."-Hebrews 12:15-17
And let's say that the author does not mean losing the inheritance/salvation but rather is talking about losing the manifest benefits of one's salvation. That would be saying God will not change his mind about letting a Christian once again enjoy the benefits of his salvation and will ignore even the tearful plea to walk in the fullness of the inheritance again.
"15See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God...6that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears."-Hebrews 12:15-17
R
And that's the point. You have to go back to unbelief to lose your salvation (and unbelief is signified by living in sin). Believers don't lose their salvation. Former believers do. Those who turn back to the world in unbelief eventually will not be allowed to return. That is the warning for us believers from the author of Hebrews. Don't go back to the world in unbelief. You may not be allowed to return even if you want to.
One can argue all day long that real believers don't go back to unbelief, and that's fine, some don't (the fourth kind of soil believers), but weak believers can (second kind of soil believers). This is what resolves the tension between the 'once saved always saved passages' and the 'not once saved always saved' passages. It is the mature in Christ WHO KNOW HIM INTIMATELY that do not fall away (fourth kind of soil believers). That is why it is important that we grow up in our salvation into an intimate KNOWING of Christ, those who produce the fruit of the kingdom. We know we are among those who KNOW Christ by if we walk in compassion (love) toward others, doing them no harm, especially our enemies. They are the ones who have security, and assurance, of salvation. They are the ones who persevere to the very end and are saved.
One can argue all day long that real believers don't go back to unbelief, and that's fine, some don't (the fourth kind of soil believers), but weak believers can (second kind of soil believers). This is what resolves the tension between the 'once saved always saved passages' and the 'not once saved always saved' passages. It is the mature in Christ WHO KNOW HIM INTIMATELY that do not fall away (fourth kind of soil believers). That is why it is important that we grow up in our salvation into an intimate KNOWING of Christ, those who produce the fruit of the kingdom. We know we are among those who KNOW Christ by if we walk in compassion (love) toward others, doing them no harm, especially our enemies. They are the ones who have security, and assurance, of salvation. They are the ones who persevere to the very end and are saved.
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